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Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on March 24, 2007, 07:06:
 
Why, why, why? Someone please tell me.
 
Posted by LemonSmuggler (Member # 7701) on March 24, 2007, 08:04:
 
Because we, the fairer sex go through a roller coaster of hormone changes monthly. Which causes us to be a little less...sane then our better halfs.

Or the woman in question is just a total and complete bitch. And if that be the case, I can offer no advice or information except that you should either 1) buy some earmuffs or 2) Run. Run fast. Run like you've never run before.

Hope that helps!
Lemon, the not so dating expert<3
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on March 24, 2007, 08:31:
 
It doesn't help when you troll them with such questions. [Razz]
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on March 24, 2007, 08:38:
 
'Tis true. Teasing in person can be conducive to feminine interest if done properly, but taunting from a distance can only get you flamed.
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on March 24, 2007, 11:07:
 
Mac D __________________ Observations of an old man, men and women only appear to speak the same language. Words do not hold the same meaning for the opposite sex. Doesn't matter what side you are on it only appears to be the same. So do as many have done put up with what you will tolerate and run from what you won't. If you find a lass with like interests feel blessed.
 
Posted by BooBooKitty (Member # 5566) on March 24, 2007, 11:17:
 
The same could be said about men. Why are men so difficult? Be careful where you tread. [Wink]
 
Posted by Reedius (Member # 7130) on March 24, 2007, 13:30:
 
Men are logical beings, women are illogical and confusing and do things using their feelings and not their brains, it's weird and it is complicated and even they don't know this.
And they like to comunicate with body language almost entirely, something we men don't do, so all these factors make them totally complicated and misterious, i just know one thing that can neutralize all this:attraction(that can lead to love). If there's attraction between a man and a woman there's nothing that can interfere.
Seek to build/create/find attraction between you and you "target", that's the key.
 
Posted by BooBooKitty (Member # 5566) on March 24, 2007, 13:42:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Reedius:
Men are logical beings, women are illogical and confusing and do things using their feelings and not their brains, it's weird and it is complicated and even they don't know this.
And they like to comunicate with body language almost entirely, something we men don't do, so all these factors make them totally complicated and misterious, i just know one thing that can neutralize all this:attraction(that can lead to love). If there's attraction between a man and a woman there's nothing that can interfere.
Seek to build/create/find attraction between you and you "target", that's the key.

Don't get me started...

How can men be logical if they think with one of two heads? Hmm??
 
Posted by littlenewsie (Member # 7241) on March 24, 2007, 13:44:
 
Reedius, I'm offended. Honestly, women are not objects and should not be treated as such. That's what it seems they are to you. We think, we have feelings, and I don't know why you think otherwise. We're not brainless idiots.

Women do use their brains. How do you think Condoleezza Rice got to where she is? It sure wasn't by sleeping with everybody.

Sure, we maybe be a bit more emotionally involved and a bit more sentimental than men, but that's the way society has conditioned us to be, just as society has conditioned men to be the tough, unfeeling type.

There's more to a relationship than appearances. I don't think I communicate entirely in body language. If anything, I still feel a little awkward around my boyfriend. I'm much more comfortable talking to him, whether it be via computer or in person than doing anything physical with him. We were in a relationship for two months before we even hugged.

And there's plenty of things that can interfere with attraction. Common sense for one. Sure you can be attracted to someone, but you should get to know them before you take it to the next level. Who wants to be involved with a jerk?

And on a side note, I'm new! Hi...
 
Posted by BooBooKitty (Member # 5566) on March 24, 2007, 14:11:
 
Welcome, littlenewsie!!
 
Posted by Reedius (Member # 7130) on March 24, 2007, 14:24:
 
What a said was only in the dating situacion not in work, education,etc and i don't think women are objects quite the contrary.
And this theory works in general, i'm still working on the exceptions.
 
Posted by SpazGirl (Member # 4915) on March 24, 2007, 15:15:
 
Well, as far as exceptions go you've found the place for them!
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on March 24, 2007, 15:17:
 
Haven't we gone over this, like, a bajillion times before?


And the next time I hear the hormone/pms excuse for a woman being bitchy, I'm going to explode, and then there'll be little pieces of nwnfbrain all over my roommate's stuff.
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on March 24, 2007, 18:14:
 
I knew a guy who did that. It took a long time to clean up. He was nice. The funeral was nice, too.

I'm really excited about this thread!! It looks like it may get contentious.
 
Posted by iWanToUseaMac (Member # 4993) on March 24, 2007, 18:30:
 
Though being the same language, they use a totally different code.
So feelings and jewerly seem to be the only languages they can understand perfectly [Razz] ç
Don't bother speaking.
 
Posted by Spiderman (Member # 1609) on March 24, 2007, 20:26:
 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
And the next time I hear the hormone/pms excuse for a woman being bitchy, I'm going to explode, and then there'll be little pieces of nwnfbrain all over my roommate's stuff.

Sweet! Be sure to take video. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by LemonSmuggler (Member # 7701) on March 24, 2007, 23:17:
 
quote:
Originally posted by littlenewsie:
Reedius, I'm offended. Honestly, women are not objects and should not be treated as such. That's what it seems they are to you. We think, we have feelings, and I don't know why you think otherwise. We're not brainless idiots.

Women do use their brains. How do you think Condoleezza Rice got to where she is? It sure wasn't by sleeping with everybody.

Sure, we maybe be a bit more emotionally involved and a bit more sentimental than men, but that's the way society has conditioned us to be, just as society has conditioned men to be the tough, unfeeling type.

There's more to a relationship than appearances. I don't think I communicate entirely in body language. If anything, I still feel a little awkward around my boyfriend. I'm much more comfortable talking to him, whether it be via computer or in person than doing anything physical with him. We were in a relationship for two months before we even hugged.

And there's plenty of things that can interfere with attraction. Common sense for one. Sure you can be attracted to someone, but you should get to know them before you take it to the next level. Who wants to be involved with a jerk?

And on a side note, I'm new! Hi...

Hi, welcome! I'm new too! I've been here one whole day. [Smile] I rather enjoy it, hope you do too!

So on the subject of your reply I'd have to disagree with you. (And please note Ms. Rice, though very smart, and having achieved so much, is very much alone and you rarely, if ever hear a young girl say “When I grow up I want to be just like her!”)

He didn’t call women “brainless idiots.” That was your misinterpretation of where he was coming from. He merely stated that fact that women do tend to fallow their emotions. Society has not conditioned us be emotional, it is because of the many hormone changes that accrues in our brain monthly, that and the fact that the female brain is vastly different then the male brain. This does not make one sex weaker then the other; each sex just brings something different to the table. Men and women could not survive without each other, we are like a pair of mittens, we’re supposed to be together. Silly feminists like to say that men and women are completely 100% the same. We are not. Any sensible female would tell you that. Now that doesn’t mean we aren’t just as capable, we are, but we are different, and I believe that needs to be acknowledged.

And as for your statement saying you don’t think you communicate entirely in body language that was silly. Body language is not about physical contact, it’s about the way you move, the emotion in your steps, the swing of your arms, the turn of your head. Body language is called that because it tells us about a person and how they feel without even having to speak to them. We pick up on the way they feel by watching the movement of their body. We pick up if they are confident, scared, happy, sad, lost, etc.

I suggest you read The Female Brain by Louann Brizendine M.D. I’ve read it and thought it brilliantly written.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on March 24, 2007, 23:21:
 
Since I believe bad questions deserve bad answers...

quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
Why, why, why? Someone please tell me.

We aren't difficult. You're just dumb. [Wink] [Razz]
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on March 25, 2007, 06:24:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Since I believe bad questions deserve bad answers...

quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
Why, why, why? Someone please tell me.

We aren't difficult. You're just dumb. [Wink] [Razz]
[Eek!] lol, Well when it comes to women I'll be the first to admit to that statement.
 
Posted by WinterSolstice (Member # 934) on March 25, 2007, 11:44:
 
The only difficulty I have with women is the "guess what I'm thinking" game. Aside from that, I rarely have issues with it.

In a workplace setting, I've never really had a problem understanding women (though some think they have to be jerks in order to get ahead).

My wife is difficult on occasion, but certainly no more so than I am. Some days people just don't want to get along. Myself included [Big Grin]
 
Posted by mistersaxon (Member # 6816) on March 25, 2007, 15:14:
 
I've always liked the quote from Frasier when asked by Roz why men don't use sex to manipulate women:
"How can we use sex to get what we want? Sex is what we want!"

I think that might be most of the answer right there - women and their motives are far too subtle for our tiny little minds to grasp.

And yet here I am at 00:10 UK time doing invoices instead of being cuddled up in bed with my better half. Maybe sex isn't always what we want? Or maybe sometimes it is but we think we won't get it? I'm going to think about that for a minute now. .

Hmmm - catch you folks later, ok? I have a philosophical discussion to pursue somewhere else.
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on March 26, 2007, 10:54:
 
Call the media. I'm about to defend women instead of men:

First of all, if you have an issue with difficult women, stop chasing after difficult women. A woman who is fussy with make up and clothing tends to be fussy overall. You choose who you associate with.

Second, broad brush commentary is offensive. Men aren't evil. Boys aren't stupid (so don't throw rocks at them). Women aren't difficult. While select men are evil, some boys are stupid (still, don't throw rocks at them), and some women are difficult, they are not the norm.

Third, women communicate how women communicate. Between women, we do pretty well. The subtle cues are going to be missed in cross-gender communication (men's cues as well, guys!) unless people try to meet halfway.

Fourth, there is no such thing as a perfect man or woman, so stop looking. There is no "One" just for you, but there are thousands upon thousands who you can compromise with to get to a final, steady result.

This pisses me off so much (I am Colonel Panic/ASM6816 rabid about the whole "Battle Between the Sexes" crap). These are the only truths I've found:

(1) Men and women communicate differently because of how their brains are wired to process information;
(2) Men and women are better at different things because of how their muscle and bone structures are built.

While some people apply the qualititative "better/worse" scale to it, I insist it is "different" we should focus upon, instead.

So, next time you just throw up your hands and say "Men are so damned inconsiderate!" or "Women are crazy!", think about what negative qualities you possess which made that broad-brush judgement possible. Then change yourself.

As for me? I'm a person who possesses qualities considered masculine and other qualities considered feminine. I'm a difficult woman (and would probably be a difficult man if I'd been born with testes and a penis). I don't care because those neatly labeled traits aren't masculine or feminine to me -- they're part of the sloppy whole person who is, literally, just Jess.
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on March 26, 2007, 15:18:
 
Well first off it's not one that I'm talking about, it's four.

Just to keep names private we will lable them in order of appearence and give them a designation of W1-W4.

W1: I have known this girl for about a decade and a half. Since high school. Reacently she found my Myspace page and we started talking again. She admited to me that she had a huge crush on me since we went to school together. I found this strange since I took her best friend to prom and was totally unaware of this crush she had on me. Then it gets funny. We found out we lived a block away from each other. So we decide to take a walk and go to a bar for a couple drinks. She then moves to Hudson WI. It's about 45 minutes away. We still talk but it's hard to go out with the distence and that I have givin up driving.

W2: I eloped with this girl. We are still legaly married and have spent a lot of time together. But there was a reason for the seperation. She has been calling me more often and we have been hanging out more often. And last week I took her out on a date.

W3: This girl is really pyscho and I can't seem to get rid of her. I get about 10 emails a day and about twice as many txt's on my phone. I have unlimited txt on my phone so it's not that big of a deal just annoying. She also just calls a lot. I can't find a polite way to get rid of her.

W4: This girl and I have gone out a couple times. We are both single parents so the kids tag a long. And it just seem like it could not go very far with the lack of time for each other. And it's really hard for 2 single parents to date. Both of you getting a sitter at the same time is not the easiest thing.

Hope that explains why I posted this thread.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on March 27, 2007, 01:50:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
Second, broad brush commentary is offensive. Men aren't evil. Boys aren't stupid (so don't throw rocks at them). Women aren't difficult. While select men are evil, some boys are stupid (still, don't throw rocks at them), and some women are difficult, they are not the norm.

However, there are some common male/female traits/habits/behaviours that seem to hold true more often than not (but not for every single person). For example:

* men trying to solve a women's problem rather than listening and emphathising

* women being more willing to open up emotionally than men

* women using the "if you don't know what's wrong, i'm not going to tell you" approach.

However, these are basically just stereotypes, or guidelines. In just those three stereotypes I listed, my GF and I have the reverse of what you would expect in two of them. So sure, use these commonalities as a guide, but be willing to get to know someone enough to know where they diverge from the "usual"

quote:

Third, women communicate how women communicate.

Isn't that a "broad brush commentary"? [Razz]

quote:

Fourth, there is no such thing as a perfect man or woman, so stop looking. There is no "One" just for you, but there are thousands upon thousands who you can compromise with to get to a final, steady result.

YES!!! No relationship is perfect, easy or should be taken for granted. Consistent and continual effort needs to be put in by both parties, or it won't work...

quote:

While some people apply the qualititative "better/worse" scale to it, I insist it is "different" we should focus upon, instead.

Indeed. I reserve my right to be irritated by certain behaviours (the "if you don't know i'm not telling you" in particular), but I can also work around it, as I'm usually perceptive enough to work it out...


I pretty much agree with Jess's final points. My own opinion is that way too often miscommunication ruins relationships, and since communication can always be worked on and improved, it's not worth writing off a relationship because of that. However different interests, goals in life, etc, are probably more damning factors...
 
Posted by mistersaxon (Member # 6816) on March 27, 2007, 02:03:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
And it's really hard for 2 single parents to date. Both of you getting a sitter at the same time is not the easiest thing.

Share the sitter and split the cost if the kids get on okay and are the right ages.

Most sitters get a really easy ride, unless they are looking after my niece ( "Mum always lets us have a chocolate party when she goes out . . " ) so a couple more kids shouldn't be a problem if you tell them first and don't pick a night before a school day.

p.s. My research was more productive than anticipated ...
 
Posted by BooBooKitty (Member # 5566) on March 27, 2007, 04:48:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
Well first off it's not one that I'm talking about, it's four.

*snip!*

Hope that explains why I posted this thread.

Gack! What a complex web you've got woven there. [Razz]
 
Posted by ewomack (Member # 3225) on March 27, 2007, 09:01:
 
Men and women aren't that different deep down socially (obviously some rather salient physical differences exist). We just receive different training. The social differences are mostly differences in role playing. No stereotypes on either side hold up whatsoever in the real world. Both genders can be illogical, over-emotional, underhanded, manipulative, understanding, empathetic, amazing. I think when people ask questions like the one that started this thread they're projecting their personal problem onto the entire gender. Women do it too. It's like saying "This painting I'm making sucks. But painting sucks anyway, so why bother?" It's a purely human reaction, and it's okay as long as you realize what it is and what it isn't.
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on March 27, 2007, 19:38:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Reedius:
Men are logical beings, women are illogical and confusing and do things using their feelings and not their brains, it's weird and it is complicated and even they don't know this.

That's the problem with men. You make all your decisions based on your logic. [Razz] You should try doing things based on feelings more often.

quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
And the next time I hear the hormone/pms excuse for a woman being bitchy, I'm going to explode, and then there'll be little pieces of nwnfbrain all over my roommate's stuff.

1) Prepare to expire.

Or

2) Get used to it.
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
Well first off it's not one that I'm talking about, it's four.

Just to keep names private we will lable them in order of appearence and give them a designation of W1-W4.

W1: I have known this girl for about a decade and a half. Since high school. Reacently she found my Myspace page and we started talking again. She admited to me that she had a huge crush on me since we went to school together. I found this strange since I took her best friend to prom and was totally unaware of this crush she had on me. Then it gets funny. We found out we lived a block away from each other. So we decide to take a walk and go to a bar for a couple drinks. She then moves to Hudson WI. It's about 45 minutes away. We still talk but it's hard to go out with the distence and that I have givin up driving.

W2: I eloped with this girl. We are still legaly married and have spent a lot of time together. But there was a reason for the seperation. She has been calling me more often and we have been hanging out more often. And last week I took her out on a date.

W3: This girl is really pyscho and I can't seem to get rid of her. I get about 10 emails a day and about twice as many txt's on my phone. I have unlimited txt on my phone so it's not that big of a deal just annoying. She also just calls a lot. I can't find a polite way to get rid of her.

W4: This girl and I have gone out a couple times. We are both single parents so the kids tag a long. And it just seem like it could not go very far with the lack of time for each other. And it's really hard for 2 single parents to date. Both of you getting a sitter at the same time is not the easiest thing.

Hope that explains why I posted this thread.

???

Number 1 is difficult because she moved and you have given up driving?
Yup .. that's all her.

Number 2 is difficult because you decided to separate, but you took her on a date last week.
Yup .. that's all her.

Number 3 IS more than difficult. Dude, she's a stalker. Seriously, call the police.
Yup .. that IS all her.

Number 4 is difficult because she's a single mom and has sitter issues.
Yup .. that's all her.

[Roll Eyes]

Dude, it doesn't sound like the women are all that difficult (except #3) And notice how you are involved in each of these problems, yourself? Doesn't sound very logical to me. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on March 27, 2007, 20:05:
 
quote:
Originally posted by boo:

quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
And the next time I hear the hormone/pms excuse for a woman being bitchy, I'm going to explode, and then there'll be little pieces of nwnfbrain all over my roommate's stuff.

1) Prepare to expire.

Or

2) Get used to it.

No. The only things that justify bitchiness are externally observable, so when women use that excuse as a catch-all, it makes women look less respectable in general and demeans those who truly do have certain problems with their bodies.

Women may continue to do this, but they can't expect to continue being friends with me if they do. It's stupid and juvenile, and I refuse to be involved.
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on March 28, 2007, 20:01:
 
No Nerd, you're reacting as though pms is fiction. It's not. I would agree that there are probably some women who use it as an excuse too often, and that's not right. But it IS real. Not all women are afflicted, though. So if you happen to have a mother or sisters who don't suffer from pms, you might be likely to think other women are making it up. But that would be a very shortsighted thing to do and you're not shortsighted.

It's your prerogative to be friends with whom you choose, but I hope you won't be tossing too many friends aside, just for this issue.
 
Posted by LemonSmuggler (Member # 7701) on March 29, 2007, 00:53:
 
quote:
Originally posted by boo:
No Nerd, you're reacting as though pms is fiction. It's not. I would agree that there are probably some women who use it as an excuse too often, and that's not right. But it IS real. Not all women are afflicted, though. So if you happen to have a mother or sisters who don't suffer from pms, you might be likely to think other women are making it up. But that would be a very shortsighted thing to do and you're not shortsighted.

It's your prerogative to be friends with whom you choose, but I hope you won't be tossing too many friends aside, just for this issue.

I totally agree with everything you just said. And I would like to submit as proof, everyone woman on my mothers side of the family tree. It's not just the hormons, but the striking pain the takes hold of your body for a total week. For a whole week when you have things to do, you can't do anything but lay in bed, in the shower, in a hot tub and pray to God that the pain goes away. [shake head]
 
Posted by Stibbons (Member # 2515) on March 29, 2007, 03:06:
 
"If I felt sorry for myself five days every month, this hosptal would be up the creek, sans paddle" [Wink] (though I think the follow up line is a classic)

In reality nwnf, PMS can hit some women pretty hard. Unfortunately, that seems to involve all the women I'm close to... [ohwell] If your experience with women so far has not included anyone who suffers horribly then you're a lucky sod! Though I do agree, a few women use it as an excuse, but it's best not to say that to a girl in case it isn't just an excuse and they rip your head off then stuff it places where your head is just not meant to go [Wink]
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on March 29, 2007, 08:45:
 
Mother Spastic and Sibling Spastic both claim that partaking of medicinal marijuanna can help with menstration-related discomfort. I couldn't confirm their assertion as I'm not properly equipped... Worth a shot for those without objections to the drug who similarly suffer perhaps.

(ScholasticSpastic and his family do not neccessarily endorse the use of illegal substances)
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on April 01, 2007, 17:32:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stibbons:
"If I felt sorry for myself five days every month, this hosptal would be up the creek, sans paddle" [Wink] (though I think the follow up line is a classic)

In reality nwnf, PMS can hit some women pretty hard. Unfortunately, that seems to involve all the women I'm close to... [ohwell] If your experience with women so far has not included anyone who suffers horribly then you're a lucky sod! Though I do agree, a few women use it as an excuse, but it's best not to say that to a girl in case it isn't just an excuse and they rip your little head off then stuff it places where your bestest little friend is just not meant to go [Wink]

Words in bold added by me. [Big Grin]
Sorry, Stibbons. Just wanted to make sure he got the point.
 
Posted by MacManKrisK (Member # 955) on April 01, 2007, 18:30:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
Mother Spastic and Sibling Spastic both claim that partaking of medicinal marijuanna can help with menstration-related discomfort.

"Weather you suffer form Glaucoma or you just rented The Matrix, medical marijuana can make things great!.... medically." -- Homer J. Simpson
 
Posted by Spoongirl (Member # 2143) on April 02, 2007, 03:38:
 
Erm, how likely is it that you would enter into situations like yours with men in the first place?

You could be a raging bisexual for all I know, but seeing as your troubles seem female-centred, I'm assuming not.

Therefore, negative situations involving solely women are the only kind that can ever come up. You won't ever be able to compare it to how men behave.

And trust me, you menfolk can be just as crazy.

Why? Because people are people and some are crazy and some are not. I haven't found *anything* to convince me even a teeny little bit that it's anything to do with sex/gender.
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on April 03, 2007, 18:16:
 
nwnf: I never use PMS as an excuse. I am a royal frakking bitch all of the time. Luckily, I found someone who was willing to look past his own nose to see that there is a good woman beneath, one who would die if it would save his life.

Sorry you can't find a girl like that. Or maybe you have, but you're not a man willing to die to save her life in return.

That said, I'm sorry you're having "women troubles". Perhaps if you focus less on your loneliness and more on your child, you might find the answer within yourself.
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on April 03, 2007, 21:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
nwnf: I never use PMS as an excuse. I am a royal frakking bitch all of the time. Luckily, I found someone who was willing to look past his own nose to see that there is a good woman beneath, one who would die if it would save his life.

Sorry you can't find a girl like that. Or maybe you have, but you're not a man willing to die to save her life in return.

I can't figure out if that's an insult or not, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is not.


It just seems like a really shallow excuse that people let women get away with using. The football players and women's basketball players here have started their spring conditioning; they are often so sore that they can barely hobble down the hallway or lift their arms above their heads; but they never use it as an excuse to be an ass to someone.


The reason I say what I've been saying is that using PMS as an excuse to be mean to someone seems fairly weak. It's like, you want to be mean to someone, but you don't really have a reason, so you invent this excuse because you don't have, for lack of a better term, the 'balls' to straight up tell this person that you have ill feelings towards them. And I just don't like that kind of personality.
 
Posted by Spoongirl (Member # 2143) on April 04, 2007, 05:18:
 
Well, football and basketball players train for that kind of thing. And choose to do so. Can't really compare.

I'm not defending the women that use it for an excuse either, but there are varying levels of pain that it can attack you with.

Having stabbing pains and sickness and back ache... No, on the days I get that shit, I'm not inclined to be so super-nice to people.

And that's not restricted to PMS, but whenever I'm in pain. I get a migraine: I'm a bitch. I smack my hand on the doorframe: Not so friendly. Once again, that's exactly like guys, because it's a people thing, not a woman thing. You stub your toe in the dark and someone asks if you're okay when they can hear you hissing and cursing then they're unlikely to get a "thanks awfully for enquiring, love, I just had a bit of an encounter with the cupboard door, but the bleeding seems to be stopping as I hop round the room, I'll be back to bed in a bit." [Razz]

I'd like to think it's not actually taking it out on people, but being more easily provoked by fools or foolish comments. Some asshat makes some stupid comment most days, I can deal with that and ignore. But if I'm in pain - any kind of pain - I'm much more likely to engage and snap.

quote:
Both genders can be illogical, over-emotional, underhanded, manipulative, understanding, empathetic, amazing. I think when people ask questions like the one that started this thread they're projecting their personal problem onto the entire gender.
I'm liking this comment, by the way. Sums up what I think pretty neatly. [thumbsup]
 
Posted by WinterSolstice (Member # 934) on April 04, 2007, 07:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
It just seems like a really shallow excuse that people let women get away with using.

IIRC - Mark Twain may have nailed this one for you: "women behave once a month how men behave all the time"
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on April 04, 2007, 10:18:
 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
IIRC - Mark Twain may have nailed this one for you: "women behave once a month how men behave all the time"

No, that is not the sentiment I am trying to express. Just because it's semi-witty and self-deprecating does not make it correct.

Spoongirl: maybe I just have a different idea of what kind of pain is acceptable to put someone in a 'bad' mood. Generally: if you can walk, you can't bitch. Also, I totally understand if you get bitchy when somebody repeatedly does something that you've already established is annoying- for example, repeatedly asking you if you want to go for a run or do some sit-ups or something while you have cramps, when the answer is an obvious NO. Or wanting to engage in a beer-can-crushing-competition using your head when you have a migraine- obviously not a good idea.

But when somebody comes home and says, "Hey hon, how as work", or "Do you want to go out and get something to eat?" and the answer is dripping with liquid bitchiness, there's no excuse for that. Sometimes people just want to be mean to other people, and for the most part that's okay- there's a reason the Gods have given us the ability to brawl- but when people need to justify their behaviour so they don't feel as guilty, well, I take issues with that.
 
Posted by WinterSolstice (Member # 934) on April 04, 2007, 10:37:
 
Clearly you're just looking for a reason/place to vent, so have at it. You've received empathy, sympathy, humor, and rather detailed explanations.

Apparently you're aiming to join boo in the "why don't people tell me what I want to hear" club.
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on April 04, 2007, 10:51:
 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
Clearly you're just looking for a reason/place to vent, so have at it. You've received empathy, sympathy, humor, and rather detailed explanations.

Apparently you're aiming to join boo in the "why don't people tell me what I want to hear" club.

Clearly. Or maybe I think people are misinterpreting what I'm trying to say because they think they've already heard it. Whatever though, apparently women are too holy to criticize, so I'm an evil asshole when I say things that I observe to be true. I think I can live with that, though.
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on April 04, 2007, 11:36:
 
Ok, so let's start from scratch and take a look at what the PMS is: about a week before a women's menses, there is a change in hormone level in the body - thus the brain, too - indicating that the woman isn't pregnant and the uterus has to prepare for another cycle. The scale and length of that change varies from woman to woman, and so does the effect. For some, it's almost like any other day. For others, there are severe migraines. In between, you find cramps, simple headaches, or general uneasiness. The mood can be stable, like some women will feel more like cuddling, or won't stand being touched or talked to those days; while others will suffer from the emotional "round robin". Also note that stress will amplify the effects of the hormonal changes. (So if a woman is PMSing and had a bad day at work, better be extra carefull. Or out of the house.)

So PMS can be an excuse for being bitchy, as it's not only pain, but hormonal imbalance - which means the brain may not react as normal. But yes, some abuse it, like any other excuse. In any case, please remember that's something that cannot be fully * controled, and unless you have proof that the woman using it isn't really suffering from it, just say "sorry" and stay away.

I doubt a man could really understand what it is like. The best I can do is this comparison: teenage is to life what PMS is to a woman's cycle - a period of hormonal imbalance that is not felt the same by everyone. So if you can't live with it, better look for post-menopaused women.

(Little related fact: it's no surprise the word hysteric was used to describe someone who "lost one's marbles", as it is a derivative from uterus. Obviously, you're not the first one to notice women's altered behaviour at that period of the month! [evil] )

* Edited: "fully" added following Xanthine's valid point. Although some do make an effort to control the mood swings (yes, sport is a way, other will indulge into chocolate, or other substances, or just try to avoid any confrontational situations), others won't. Just as some men feel the need to make everyone miserable when they do, so do some women.
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on April 04, 2007, 11:48:
 
<diffficult woman>

True. True?!

No, no, no, no, no. It's your vision of what is there twisted through a screen. Those four women would make four other men perfectly content (even the stalker chick, whose need for love can be sated if she finds a man she can actually trust).

You, sir, are a malcontent by choice, therefore lonely by choice. Women are not too holy too touch on, but you have to take responsibility that perhaps your approach is the greatest factor -- NOT THE WOMEN!

Sorry if my husband is right and it hurt your widdle feelings to the point of false self-deprication (you do not consider yourself evil or an asshole, so don't play victim for the mini-violins, sweetheart). You are out here to whine that "the world done you wrong". Well know what? No, it didn't.

Some people have nothing, have no one. Some people are seriously ill and dying. Some people live in the gutters in the snow. Some people do that in third world countries, which makes it worse. You have a computer, a family, and even people who were ready to give you the support and sane advice (including help from people who aren't emotionally invested in the situation). Yes, it's cynical. Of course it's cynical! Everyone here is either a cynic or just plain dissatisfied with the world!

You just want something you can't have. If you made a list of "the perfect woman", and this woman entered her life, she still wouldn't be right.

Also, you trolled for this with the subject line "Why are women so difficult?"

Why am I difficult? Because men like you freaking trashed my life before I met my husband! He has had to sweep up after men like you for our whole relationship. You don't like what he says? Too freaking bad. He's right, and that, friend, is more true than your complaint that women don't get slashed apart.

That said, most women need to be less shallow about money and looks. There is such a thing as "Too Many Shoes" and "antique" is not a verb which should be made into a gerund. Shopping as a pastime for things one does not need or will never use is insanity, not intelligence.
</difficult woman>

WS: I'm baking bread for tonight's dinner. Should I make a second rack of baguettes so you can have a sub sandwich tomorrow?
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on April 04, 2007, 11:57:
 
I try to keep some kind of control over myself while PMSing. Usually I succeed. Sometimes I don't, but I try to fly off the handle all by myself when no one has to watch. And sometimes, when I fly off the handle, it's not PMS at all, and I know this because it would be physically impossible for PMS to be occurring at the time (and wow, when I'm upset for non-hormonal reasons, and someone tries to write my emotions off as PMS, I get mad...really mad). I've found that exercise is the great cure-all for me - the more I exercise in any given month, the less cramping and moodiness I experience when the time comes. Maybe endorphins counteract hormones or something. I don't know.

I blame being a grad student for most of my moodiness. It's not even that flimsy of an excuse.
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on April 04, 2007, 13:09:
 
Okay, sorry about the rant. I'm not deleting it, but I understand the frustration of men being as diffficult as women though in their own way.

It's an emotional content thing, and it's also more about fear of taking risks than actually difficult people. It's not about the women as much as the worry that those women will hurt you like people have consistently throughout your life (even the nice ones).

Attacking you didn't help the problem and it never will, even in defense of my husband's statement. While he is right in that complaining about something one cannot change (other people) in contrast to something one can change is always fruitless, it doesn't make it easier to take the first step toward that.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on April 04, 2007, 14:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
So PMS can be an excuse for being bitchy, as it's not only pain, but hormonal imbalance - which means the brain may not react as normal. But yes, some abuse it, like any other excuse...

...I doubt a man could really understand what it is like.

Actually, I can.

The anti-malarial I was on in Africa, Larium, has known mood-altering effects, and can cause full-blown psychotic episodes in a small percentage of users. It's a once-a-week tablet, and it was quite noticable that the people on Larium were PMSing the day before their Larium was due.

It was quite scary, I used to wake up in the middle of the night angry, not angry about anything, just angry. One night, someone offered me a coffee, I asked for it black, and she brought one with (powdered) milk in it. I WAS FSCKING FURIOUS !!!! I sat there for the next hour, seething with anger at someone I quite liked, who'd made a simple mistake while trying to do me a favour. I just kept saying to myself "Druid, it's only a cup of coffee".

Some kept their irrational anger to themselves, others used 'Larium Day' as an excuse to vent all the inevitable frustrations of travelling in uncomfortable conditions with the same people for 3 months.

So, now I understand what PMSing women are going through, but it doesn't make it any easier to take the abuse.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on April 04, 2007, 15:02:
 
And that is why I didn't take Larium on my trip this past winter. It was only a couple weeks, and I really didn't need something that had psycho side effects in my system when I was going to be up on a mountain and around my family. Altitude does enough bizarre things to my dreams - I didn't need a pill to help me along. So I took Malarone instead.
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on April 04, 2007, 18:30:
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Actually, I can.

The anti-malarial I was on in Africa, Larium, has known mood-altering effects, and can cause full-blown psychotic episodes in a small percentage of users. It's a once-a-week tablet, and it was quite noticable that the people on Larium were PMSing the day before their Larium was due.

I stand corrected. So there is a way for a man to know what it's like. Although I would never suggest someone to try it just to know what it's like. I'm not that cruel. [Wink]
 
Posted by Spoongirl (Member # 2143) on April 05, 2007, 07:57:
 
Well, hell, that seems reasonable.

People using any kind of excuse (rather than genuine reason) to behave like an asshole is, well, assholey behaviour.

quote:
Generally: if you can walk, you can't bitch.
And sometimes we can't. Well, you could. But you'd be in crippling pain, so it's preferable not to. I'm thinking that counts.

quote:
but when people need to justify their behaviour so they don't feel as guilty, well, I take issues with that.

Damn straight. Be a bitch and then apologise for being a bitch when you feel sorry, but if it's not a pms thing then don't put it on that. It's just chickening out of it. I think that's what you're trying to say, and I have to agree.

I have to say, I'm one of the lucky ones. I don't get a lot of pain at all, and none of my friends can ever tell. Or maybe that's a bad thing. Maybe I'm just a grumpy beyatch all the time. [crazy]
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on April 05, 2007, 11:04:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Spoongirl:
Well, hell, that seems reasonable.

People using any kind of excuse (rather than genuine reason) to behave like an asshole is, well, assholey behaviour.

quote:
Generally: if you can walk, you can't bitch.
And sometimes we can't. Well, you could. But you'd be in crippling pain, so it's preferable not to. I'm thinking that counts.

quote:
but when people need to justify their behaviour so they don't feel as guilty, well, I take issues with that.

Damn straight. Be a bitch and then apologise for being a bitch when you feel sorry, but if it's not a pms thing then don't put it on that. It's just chickening out of it. I think that's what you're trying to say, and I have to agree.

I have to say, I'm one of the lucky ones. I don't get a lot of pain at all, and none of my friends can ever tell. Or maybe that's a bad thing. Maybe I'm just a grumpy beyatch all the time. [crazy]

Thanky00! That's what I've been trying to get across this whole time!


Ah, now I can go die in peace.
 
Posted by Spoongirl (Member # 2143) on April 06, 2007, 05:48:
 
Bit of a thorny issue though.

There ARE lot of asshats that think it's *all* BS, and *always* an excuse to be a bitch.

If people are thinking that's what you're saying then it's understandable that they're gonna go against you.

But I reckon it wasn't. [thumbsup]
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on April 11, 2007, 07:27:
 
Sorry if someone else already suggested the blindingly obvious, the whole thing was TL;DR. (That's probably me being difficult owing to the fact that I possess a uterus.)

quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:

W4: This girl and I have gone out a couple times. We are both single parents so the kids tag a long. And it just seem like it could not go very far with the lack of time for each other. And it's really hard for 2 single parents to date. Both of you getting a sitter at the same time is not the easiest thing.

Share a sitter. You drop kids at her house, she drops kids at your house. One sitter needed.

Oh wait, that was a really logical suggestion for someone who operates purely on emotion. I am going to go watch Oprah and cry now.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on April 11, 2007, 12:18:
 
What's the difference between CJD and PMS?

One's 'Mad Cow Disease', and the other's a brain disorder you get from eating contaminated beef.

/coat
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on April 11, 2007, 18:31:
 
[shake head]
 
Posted by Spoongirl (Member # 2143) on April 13, 2007, 07:51:
 
Snh, snh, snh.
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on April 13, 2007, 10:32:
 
Ah, TFD.

Bringing out the Thumper's Dad Rule in my reply.
 
Posted by Tiroth (Member # 8543) on May 25, 2007, 19:13:
 
Silly mortals... [shake head]

-Tiroth
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on May 28, 2007, 02:22:
 
quote:
Originally posted by LemonSmuggler:
Because we, the fairer sex go through a roller coaster of hormone changes monthly. Which causes us to be a little less...sane then our better halfs.

Why do women feel the need to apologize for this? Whose definition of sane are we using? You don't see black people apologizing for their complexion or men apologizing for their body hair or Asian people apologizing for the shape of their eyes. So why do women apologize for their estrogen and offer up a bashful "I'm sorry about my hormones."?


Quit apologizing for biology.

Edit: WTF dead thread. And it was a) TL;DR a second time and b) surprisingly forgettable.
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on May 28, 2007, 02:27:
 
what body hair?
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on May 28, 2007, 21:06:
 
Tiroth, buddy... a little favor please?

Check the date on the last post in a thread before you jump in and comment. If it's a couple months old, and fairly mundane - let it go. Otherwise someone around here is liable to accuse you of 'necroposting'. Why? Because that's what you're doing.

Don't missunderstand. This is not a flame message. (Flame messages look more like this here:  - )

One in while is fine, especially when you have something to contribute.

Just think about it, okay. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on May 28, 2007, 22:18:
 
There would appear to be many necroposts today. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on May 28, 2007, 22:42:
 
garlicguy: You inconsiderate clod!!!
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on May 29, 2007, 06:59:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
garlicguy: You inconsiderate clod!!!

*sigh* Mea culpa, mea culpa... [ohwell]
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on May 29, 2007, 08:58:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
garlicguy: You inconsiderate clod!!!

*sigh* Mea culpa, mea culpa... [ohwell]
Sorry, you've just made my asshole list. I will never talk to you politely again. Everything is forever more your fault!

[Smile]

YHBT. HAND. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on May 29, 2007, 09:34:
 
I _ made _ your _ 'A'-list???? *Blink, blink* [Happytears] [hearts]
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on May 31, 2007, 20:35:
 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
quote:
Originally posted by LemonSmuggler:
Because we, the fairer sex go through a roller coaster of hormone changes monthly. Which causes us to be a little less...sane then our better halfs.

Why do women feel the need to apologize for this? Whose definition of sane are we using? You don't see black people apologizing for their complexion or men apologizing for their body hair or Asian people apologizing for the shape of their eyes. So why do women apologize for their estrogen and offer up a bashful "I'm sorry about my hormones."?


Quit apologizing for biology.


?!! Are you single? That's one of the best things I've ever heard a man say.
[Smile] Wait, you are a man, aren't you? [ohwell] Anyway, good post, good point. [thumbsup]
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on May 31, 2007, 20:36:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
I _ made _ your _ 'A'-list???? *Blink, blink* [Happytears] [hearts]

Awww, I'm sure you've made many, garlicguy. [Smile]
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on May 31, 2007, 20:59:
 
No.../she/ isn't single. ;P
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on May 31, 2007, 21:09:
 
I wasn't interested. [Smile] I was just curious how a "man" with that attitude could be single. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on June 01, 2007, 02:10:
 
quote:
Originally posted by boo:
I wasn't interested. [Smile] I was just curious how a "man" with that attitude could be single. [Big Grin]

1. They are shy and don't do a good job of approaching women or making interest in them known.

2. They have low self esteem and disbelieve it when women give indications that they are interested.

3. They are oblivious and don't notice when women are interested.

4. They have a set of criteria that they desire in a partner and haven't found those things yet.

5. They aren't interested in a relationship at the given point in time.

I'm sure there are more, but I think those cover the main ones.

And no, I'm not a man. Or single, either.
 
Posted by WinterSolstice (Member # 934) on June 01, 2007, 07:28:
 
Actually, FS, I think you've pretty much summed it up.

There are plenty of men with those attitudes (me, for example), but we tend to be the "friends", not the romantic interests.

Ironically, women seem to crave some form of abuse in a relationship, so they seek out the "bad boy" type. If a guy treats them like crap they lap it up, and when it goes horribly wrong, they come to the "friend" for a shoulder.

I was (and am) a shoulder to many, male and female. I'm also now happily married to the one woman who decided that she wasn't going to put up with that sort of crap any more.
 
Posted by TSG (Member # 8350) on June 01, 2007, 07:43:
 
All women go through the bad boy thing. Then we grow up, and want someone who gives us everything we need, not just the thrill of the bad.

Okay, I'm generalizing, but that's me anyway.

I married a bad boy, lived with another. I can't see myself going down that road again.
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on June 01, 2007, 09:33:
 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
Ironically, women seem to crave some form of abuse in a relationship, so they seek out the "bad boy" type. If a guy treats them like crap they lap it up, and when it goes horribly wrong, they come to the "friend" for a shoulder.

There are lots of men who date empty-headed hotties and good-looking gold-diggers and then can't figure out why they are unsatisfied or unhappy. And do it all over again.

For women (and men maybe?), on some level, I think often it's low self-esteem that they don't recognize as such. It's not just being attracted to "bad boys." It's subconsciously not feeling worthy of the decent ones.
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on June 01, 2007, 09:42:
 
I've never been attracted to bad boys. They just never had any appeal, to me. I am attracted to a range of other types, but my favorite are shy, skinny geeks with a funny sense of humor. [Smile]

Well, that or Travis Fimmel. [Razz] [thumbsup]
 
Posted by WinterSolstice (Member # 934) on June 01, 2007, 10:50:
 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
There are lots of men who date empty-headed hotties and good-looking gold-diggers and then can't figure out why they are unsatisfied or unhappy. And do it all over again.

Nooo - they know exactly why they are unsatisfied [Smile]

I'm not defending men here, btw. My male co-workers frequently make me just want to smack them for being such creeps. I'm just saying that from my experience there is a serious trend towards the bad-boy type (and you're right - towards the ditzy blonde, too).

To those of us that pick up the pieces, this is annoying. At least the men who date the gold diggers and the airheads are (literally) only in it for appearences, the women who date bad boys get hurt.

And good for you, boo [Smile] I'm glad there are some women pre-equipped with sense in this world. I expect a large number of them are here [Big Grin]
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on June 01, 2007, 11:30:
 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
At least the men who date the gold diggers and the airheads are (literally) only in it for appearences, the women who date bad boys get hurt.

Ok, dating airheads probably won't get you hurt too badly (though I'm not convinced those guys are completely aware of why they are unsatisfied in their relationships) but gold-diggers, or anyone that is using affection and attention as a tool to manipulate someone else into giving them what they want, can cause a lot of hurt. It seems like a lot of otherwise smart, successful, together people (men and women) repeatedly make bad choices. The kind of bad choice that everyone around them can spot but they seem unable to identify themselves. I think it's simplistic to dismiss it as "men are attracted to blondes" or "women are attracted to bad boys" when there are so many things that contribute to the partners we choose: the models our parents provided, how we feel about ourselves, social mores, media stereotypes, etc. Men are affected by all those things too. Women tend to suffer greater physical abuse than men (for a number of reasons) and they also tend to talk about their relationships and be more emotionally expressive about them (generalizations, folks) so I think that those bad relationships get more visibility.
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 01, 2007, 11:40:
 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
It seems like a lot of otherwise smart, successful, together people (men and women) repeatedly make bad choices. The kind of bad choice that everyone around them can spot but they seem unable to identify themselves.

Like they say -- Love is a retard.
 
Posted by WinterSolstice (Member # 934) on June 01, 2007, 11:41:
 
I think it's Spungo FTW [Smile]
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on June 01, 2007, 11:56:
 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
I think it's Spungo FTW [Smile]

I concur.
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 01, 2007, 13:27:
 
Err... btw -- wtf is ftw? [Confused]
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on June 01, 2007, 13:36:
 
Fsck The World

Not sure how that fits in the thread though. [Razz]
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on June 01, 2007, 13:37:
 
Umm... no.

It means "For The Win"

*I can be elaborating*

In this case, spungo wins the conversation because he got it right. Love is retarded and nobody has ever made sense of it, nor will anyone do so in the future.

Consider it job security for poets and song writers.
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 01, 2007, 13:39:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Umm... no.

It means "For The Win"

edit: ok, got it. sorry. had a textual mishap there... (I'm having some rubble getting my worms out today).
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on June 01, 2007, 13:40:
 
*edit*

GRAAAAHAAHAHAHAAHHHHHH!!!

Hulk smash puny race condition!
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on June 01, 2007, 13:49:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Umm... no.

It means "For The Win"

Actually yes. Just depends on the circles you run with. FTW always meant Fsck The World the people I ran with. It was only after I got the wonderific Intarweb did I ever hear the For The Win acronym. I guess that is the beauty of Acronyms. Toss out some letters, make a phrase. It is all right.

FTW
Flavored Tepid Water
From The Waiter
Fran The Waitress
Forgettable Tongue Wrestler

Try it, you'll like it
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 01, 2007, 13:50:
 
Finger the Walrus!
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on June 01, 2007, 13:53:
 
I try to avoid running in circles. It makes me too dizzy. [Smile]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on June 01, 2007, 14:16:
 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Umm... no.

It means "For The Win"

Actually yes. Just depends on the circles you run with. FTW always meant Fsck The World the people I ran with. It was only after I got the wonderific Intarweb did I ever hear the For The Win acronym. I guess that is the beauty of Acronyms. Toss out some letters, make a phrase. It is all right.

FTW
Flavored Tepid Water
From The Waiter
Fran The Waitress
Forgettable Tongue Wrestler

Try it, you'll like it

Ever play Acrophobia, Shroom?

I haven't played in a long time, but it was a fun game.
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on June 01, 2007, 15:11:
 
Can't say I have, but it does look like it would be a lot of fun.
 
Posted by boo (Member # 5991) on June 01, 2007, 17:27:
 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Err... btw -- wtf is ftw? [Confused]

I've always seen it used as the first one .. with the letters moved a bit.
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on June 01, 2007, 20:56:
 
Fly to Wales
 


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