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Posted by serishema (Member # 4481) on November 09, 2005, 22:48:
 
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

It doesn't really make much sense to be a victim of some unknown algorithm that selects a particular person for you to focus inordinate amounts of your attention on, even when this is clearly counterproductive.

I'm happy on my own doing my own thing until I enivitably get infatuated with someone which disrupts my nice little routine. I have yet to see an instance where this doesn't end up having negative utility value.

I've thought romantic infatuation should simply be genetically engineered out of the human species. I'd be up for that.

It's not a game I can play, even when someone returns my supposed feelings (which i really view as an error in my program it's not in my power to correct) I just leave a trail of destruction because envitably I realise i'm all happy for no reason and it all wears off. Completely irational behaviour on their part usually follows. I think crazy bastard/bitch (as the case may be) and get out of there.

Does anyone else feel this way?
Does anyone else wish this thing people call love would just go away?

What strategies of avoidance do you use?
Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on November 09, 2005, 23:15:
 
Lemme try and find the right words...eh...I'm tired now...

Get...a...life... [Smile]


Cheers,
dragon
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on November 09, 2005, 23:25:
 
Someone said to me once (may have even been on here) that romantic infatuation/crushing is simply your mind constructing the perfect person out of the limited amount that you know the person at that stage. And glossing over any shortcomings etc.

My personal feeling is that there is a second sort of love which involves recognising that both people in the relationship are flawed/imperfect/etc, and attempting to work through things together, and always do the best for the other person and relationship, even if that costs personally.

Of course, the second sort isn't exclusive to romantic relationships, so how one really tells the difference between really close friendships and romances I'm not sure...
 
Posted by serishema (Member # 4481) on November 09, 2005, 23:54:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Lemme try and find the right words...eh...I'm tired now...

Get...a...life... [Smile]


Cheers,
dragon

I have a life thankyou very much, and I have no interest having it messed up by romantic delusions.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on November 09, 2005, 23:59:
 
Aren't you a little young to be so cynical?
 
Posted by supergoo (Member # 2280) on November 10, 2005, 00:09:
 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

YES. That is exactly how I feel. It may be considered a "bitter" point of view, but I think it is somber and realistic.

Actually, many civilizations throughout history believed that romantic affection is inherently volatile, and would actually wreck an otherwise sensible marriage.

My favorite quote from the Bard:
These violent delights have violent ends
And in their triumph die, like fire and powder,
Which as they kiss consume: the sweetest honey
Is loathsome in his own deliciousness
And in the taste confounds the appetite:
Therefore love moderately; long love doth so;
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow.

 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on November 10, 2005, 00:39:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Aren't you a little young to be so cynical?

Nah, I'd sworn off women entirely when I was 21.
And again when I was 22.
Then when I was 23, I met Mrs Druid... [hearts]
 
Posted by FireSnake (Member # 1181) on November 10, 2005, 01:12:
 
I love infatuation. Do you ever meet somebody and just click? You stay up all night talking - you make your own little world where nobody else exists - it's almost a transcendant experience. You can't help but be a little in love with that person, maybe forever.

My world is a better one for those times. They didn't last, but the moments were themselves perfect.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on November 10, 2005, 03:00:
 
It might be unrealistic in terms of the everyday world, but that is not the only world. I also think that, though sometimes infatuation can make you build a false picture of an ideal from your own head, just as often it lets you see a side of someone that is deeper and truer than all the fscked up nonsense that clouds our better selves. Just because it doesn't work in this crazy world, does not necessarily make the person you saw through those love spectacles an illusion either. In general it's a good idea to try to see the best side of people, as it is encouraging, and as often as not they will try to live up to what you see in them, and for exactly the same reason it is wonderful when someone else sees your best side.

Like the Firesnake I treasure all the people I have loved. Sometimes I wish I could live a hundred alternate lifetimes, so I could properly love all the wonderful women I have run across. Then reality intrudes and I realise that trying to be a better husband to the one I am married to is a rather more immediate pressing and practical concern! Uh oh..... [crazy]
 
Posted by Matias (Member # 4216) on November 10, 2005, 05:48:
 
quote:
I love infatuation. Do you ever meet somebody and just click? You stay up all night talking - you make your own little world where nobody else exists - it's almost a transcendant experience. You can't help but be a little in love with that person, maybe forever.
This will last a little while...6 months later... the "truth" comes out and than you know who you are really dealing with. Not right away but that is only the beginning of all the fun! [Big Grin] [Mad]
 
Posted by skylar (Member # 1422) on November 10, 2005, 06:07:
 
quote:
Originally posted by supergoo:
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

YES. That is exactly how I feel. It may be considered a "bitter" point of view, but I think it is somber and realistic.
I agree... to an extent. Romantic infatuation is largely pointless in the sense that it is so often doomed - by its very nature, it sets you up for a fall, and is by and large something which causes a lot more misery than happiness.

Having said that, though, I think it would be just as pointless to try and 'phase out' romantic infatuation as a social construct. The hope of happiness/fulfilment, and striving to achieve that, can be as valuable as the actual attainment, IMO.

More and more I am realising that humanity is essentially screwing itself in every ideal or belief system that it attempts to appropriate (religion, love, peace, democracy, history, etc.), but we can't really do anything but try, can we?
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on November 10, 2005, 09:30:
 
There's nothing wrong with infatuation, IMO. It's just one of many feelings a person may have, and can sometimes be lead to a loving relationship. It's just important to realize that infatuation does not encompass all that love is.
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on November 10, 2005, 09:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
There's nothing wrong with infatuation...

Quite right. Although I like to call it 'strategic walking'. [Wink]
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on November 10, 2005, 10:29:
 
Infatuation and love are two very different things.

Like the old joke:

What's the difference between like, love, and lust?
Spit, swallow, and gargle.

Infatuation is when you've found someone you *think* might be right for you, and your mind/body/heart/whatever wants them to be the right one for you so bad, that you'll overlook anything wrong with them, and ignore the bad in place of the good, and over emphasize the good. This is never good, and many people confuse this with love. It's unfortunate too, because I have done it, and it's what put me in some bad situations in the past -- because sometimes, you believe in this lust so blindly, that your subconscious will try and tell your brain that it ain't gonna work, but you refuse to listen for whatever reason (in my case, because I insisted I didn't wanna be wrong..)

Love, however, is when you understand, and accept someone else's faults, and still can't imagine being without them regardless.

unfortunately, love and lust both override your 'sense of judgement', but I've found, at least in my own experiences, that the moments I've enjoyed as a result of my love for Amanda are worth far more than doing anything stupid could possibly deprive me of.
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on November 10, 2005, 12:47:
 
quote:
My favorite quote from the Bard:
These violent delights have violent ends
And in their triumph die, like fire and powder,
Which as they kiss consume: the sweetest honey
Is loathsome in his own deliciousness
And in the taste confounds the appetite:
Therefore love moderately; long love doth so;
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow.

But he also wrote:

Oh mistress mine! where are you roaming?
O, stay and hear; your true love's coming,
That can sing both high and low.
Trip no further, pretty sweeting;
Journeys end in lovers meeting,
Every wise man's son doth know.

What is love? 'tis not hereafter;
Present mirth hath present laughter;
What's to come is still unsure:
In delay there lies no plenty;
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty,
Youth's a stuff will not endure.


I know which I prefer [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on November 10, 2005, 18:25:
 
serishema wrote:
What strategies of avoidance do you use?
Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).


I'll probably be the only person to respond to this part, and I'll do so with TMI at that...

I've been celibate for over seven years now and I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no way to avoid infatuation, crushes, lust, love and all the rest (unless you're a true psychopath, but then you wouldn't have posted this to begin with). You're going to experience those feelings no matter what you do, so accept it and make the effort to keep your feelings from replacing your ability to make rational decisions. Once you do, you'll find that you can have a lot of fun being in lust/love/whatever without destroying your life at the same time.
 
Posted by The White Tree (Member # 4040) on November 11, 2005, 07:52:
 
Love is one of the best things about life. I don't know why anyone would be so cynical unless they have been burned time after time (and I mean a whole lot of times). And as for engineering love out of our species, that would lead to a whole lot of bad stuff. Love usually means a monogomous relationship, which is almost always exhibited by intelligent species. I read somewhere that monogomous relationships lead to something, but I forget what. I think it has something to do with child development or something.
 
Posted by FireSnake (Member # 1181) on November 11, 2005, 09:19:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Matias:
This will last a little while...6 months later... the "truth" comes out and than you know who you are really dealing with. Not right away but that is only the beginning of all the fun! [Big Grin] [Mad]

I didn't actually mean someone who I enter into a romantic relationship with. I meant specifically not someone who I have a romantic relationship with. I find that real love takes longer, I don't think you can truly say that you love someone until you recognize their flaws. Once you see the flaws, acknowledge them, and work through the disparate views and imperfections and other relationship difficulties together, thats where real love begins.

Infatuation is a different beast. There have been people I was completely infatuated with that I would never have dated. Not that they were bad people, quite the contrary, but we wouldn't have worked together. Walking away at the right time means you will always be a little bit in love with that person.

One night I met a man. I didn't know him before that night. We spent all night together, first walking and talking, then drinking and talking, finally sitting in a hotel room and talking. We were both exhausted, but neither of us wanted to go to sleep. He missed a flight so that we could keep talking. Finally, the sun came up and reality intruded and we had to go our seperate ways. But for that night, he was absolutely perfect and my whole world and I was the same thing for him. We still talk, but not like that. That is the best I can do. If you've ever felt it, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't I can't describe it to you.


[Wink]
 
Posted by ewomack (Member # 3225) on November 11, 2005, 17:02:
 
Romantic love doesn't have to be monogamous. I know plenty of people who have fallen in love with multiple people at a time. And how many people fall in love with another person while married "to the one they love"? Quite a few these days. It's entirely possible, yet inconvenient, to fall equally in love with multiple people. Because love has a real frustrating irrational side, which is probably why a lot of people hate it. Of course those who can "let go" enjoy this part the most.

Love also involves a suspension of belief, in the same manner of a good story. But what in life doesn't? Sometimes the mere act of getting out of bed requires strategic forgetting, or a turning off of the spicket of existence. It's what we do. We play a lot of games to make it through this thing. Love is one of those games we play.

And of course sex enters into it. Love usually blossoms from physical attraction. We are animals, after all, and we are wired to mate like gangbusters. But somehow this fundamental necessary drive became filtered through medieval, classical, and victorian ideals and left us SPLAT where we are now. And with the changing roles and position of women in the western world, the 'ol romantic ideal has started to show its age. But it still works for some people, and good for them.
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on November 11, 2005, 18:11:
 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

But ...

... you're the one who can't sleep at night?

And you're depressed?

Mmmmmaybe it's because there is a hole in your heart, and in your bed?

I know when I have somebody special in my life and in my arms I sleep a lot better.

CP
 
Posted by serishema (Member # 4481) on November 11, 2005, 19:20:
 
If you must know there is a cirtain evil girl who was once in my CS class who is responsible for that.

So yeah.. I'll get over her tho.
Just frusturated, cos I think she's anoying and empty headed even though i'm pathetically infatuated.

I just don't cope with that kind of cognative disonance very well.
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on November 14, 2005, 07:44:
 
It might help, or it may not. When I get a crush on someone I know there is no way it can work, I let my imagination take the lead, and imagine the relationship - all the way to the break-up. Works every time. It may take a few days, or it may take longer, but it allows me to move on to more important matters.
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on November 14, 2005, 08:43:
 
serish == U? U hasn't posted for a dogs age, but he posted a lot of the same kind of thing.

Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage),

What usage?


is a pretty pointless thing.

Depends on your definition of pointless... If by pointless you mean:
- Makes you happy
- Takes away your breath
- Gives you an excuse to get out of the house
- Gives you company on your excurssion out of the house...

Then, yes...

It doesn't really make much sense to be a victim of some unknown algorithm that selects a particular person for you to focus inordinate amounts of your attention on, even when this is clearly counterproductive.

Counter productive to what ends? Because it takes away from time coding?

I'm happy on my own doing my own thing

Yes, but you also have little reason to try new things and expand your horizons.

until I enivitably get infatuated with someone which disrupts

Ah, sweet disruption.

my nice little

You said it not me. Perhaps there's your problem. ;p [evil]

routine. I have yet to see an instance where this doesn't end up having negative utility value.

My great grandparents were highschool sweet hearts, they are still together to this day. Both, very happy and still in love.

I've thought romantic infatuation should simply be genetically engineered out of the human species. I'd be up for that.

Then the species dies out... Some people might call this a good thing, but I'm not so sure.

It's not a game I can play,

I'm all for games in most things, but in love there should be no games... Too much on the line.

even when someone returns my supposed feelings (which i really view as an error in my program it's not in my power to correct)

Not an error at all.

I just leave a trail of destruction because envitably I realise i'm all happy for no reason and it all wears off.

After the initial rush wears off, that is when you findout if you love them of not. It's easy to fall into infatuation, it's easy to fall into lust, but to find real love can be difficult. What's more is that after you find love, it's not happily ever after... Love isn't always enough, there has to be trust, honesty, and communication.

In the interactions between any two people there are always going to be trials, and you'll always have to re-evaluate if it's worth it or not... If you always take this point of view, then you'll always think it's not worth the time and energy, and you'll miss out on some of the things that make life worth living.

Completely irational behaviour on their part usually follows. I think crazy bastard/bitch (as the case may be) and get out of there.

see.

Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).

Problem is, it'll still get you when your least expecting it.

Quoting Goo
YES.

Not the Goo too...

That is exactly how I feel. It may be considered a "bitter" point of view, but I think it is somber and realistic.

Realistic? To quote futurama:
quote:
Narrator [in movie]: Did you notice what went wrong in that scene? Ordinarily Billy would work hard to make money from his paper route then he'd use the money to buy dinner for Mavis, thus earning the slim chance of performing the reproductive act. But in a world where teens can date robots why should he bother? Why should anyone bother? Let's take a look at Billy's planet a year later. [The scene changes and a foam hand rolls across an empty American football field] Where are all the football stars? [The foam hand continues to drift across an empty laboratory.] And where are the biochemists? [The scene changes to a split screen of a pair of human and robots making out on beds.] They are trapped - trapped in a soft, vice-like grip of robot lips. All civilisation was just an effort to impress the opposite sex. And sometimes the same sex. Now, let's skip forward 80 years into the future. Where is Billy?

[The scene changes to a post-apocalyptic world. Billy is an aged man but he is still with his Monroebot and still making out with her.]

Billy [in movie]: Farewell!

[He dies.]

Narrator [in movie]: The next day Billy's planet was destroyed by aliens. [In the movie a fleet of flying saucers destroy buildings with a quick laser shot.] Have you guessed the name of Billy's planet? It was Earth. Don't Date Robots!

Actually, many civilizations throughout history believed that romantic affection is inherently volatile, and would actually wreck an otherwise sensible marriage.

quote:
Farnsworth: I knew I should have shown him Electro Gonhorrhea: The Noisy Killer.
Quoting Sklie
I agree... to an extent.

*shakes head*

Romantic infatuation is largely pointless in the sense that it is so often doomed - by its very nature, it sets you up for a fall, and is by and large something which causes a lot more misery than happiness.

If not for the suffering that it causes, it not for the pain... It wouldn't be so pleasurable. Actually, I think that's exactly backwards... If not for all the good, and the pleasure that there is in love, then there would be no pain. There is always a risk of being hurt, and I know only a few people who've never felt the cutting edge of love's whiles... but as the bard said:
"It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

Having said that, though, I think it would be just as pointless to try and 'phase out' romantic infatuation as a social construct. The hope of happiness/fulfilment, and striving to achieve that, can be as valuable as the actual attainment, IMO.

Ah, that sounds a bit more like the old Sky.

More and more I am realising that humanity is essentially screwing itself in every ideal or belief system that it attempts to appropriate (religion, love, peace, democracy, history, etc.), but we can't really do anything but try, can we?

I don't think we're screwing ourselves at all. I think that realizing that there are lofty and possibly unattainable goals we are built to strive for, is the cause of all of man's endevours.
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on November 14, 2005, 09:38:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
... lots ...

Damn this board is just LITTERED with extremely intelligent, insightful people. (And no, I'm not being facetious; I'm dead serious.)
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on November 14, 2005, 13:07:
 
Ah yes, love...

I am I the only one who feels lkike they're going insane when they fall in love? I hate it. I'm always far happier when the falling part is over and I'm just in love. I got kind of resentful the last time it happened. I wante dto smack the guy with a dead fish and curse him to the bowels of hell for inflicting this madness upon me. I'm a grad student, I don't have time for this. But then I got through the falling part and things stabilized. Hopefully this relationship will last and last and last I won't have to fall in love again.

Is love pointless? Of course it is. Love is utterly bereft of any point at all. So are really nice meals, good music, fine chocolates, birthdays, holidays, baby guinea pigs, long walks under the trees, a gorgeous sunset, a deep breath of air off the ocean, and the moments of clarity that come when you're standing on top of a high mountain and the world is spread out before you. You can aruge that a walk or climb is exercise or a meal is nourishment, but there's other more functional and productive ways to get nourishment and exercise. Very few of life's pleasures have a point or purpose beyond one thing, and that one thing is feeling happy. Love makes people happy. The rest of my list makes me happy - your own may have some variations. Happiness itself dones't have much point either, except it's one of those things that humans are hard-wired to seek and, for myself at least, I tend to be more productive and pleasant when I'm happy.

The bottom line: There's no justification for love. Love just is.
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on November 14, 2005, 13:34:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The bottom line: There's no justification for love. Love just is.

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on November 14, 2005, 14:11:
 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The bottom line: There's no justification for love. Love just is.

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]
I'll second that, Shroom.
Well put Xanthine [thumbsup]
 
Posted by skylar (Member # 1422) on November 14, 2005, 16:28:
 
quoting GM
*shakes head*
I blame you for making me so bitter. Lol, j/k, GM. I blame the government. If in doubt, always blame the government [Wink] .

If not for the suffering that it causes, it not for the pain... It wouldn't be so pleasurable.
But what if the pain outweighs any pleasure that you may have felt? In that case, isn't the whole thing just an exercise in pointlessness?
 
Posted by FireSnake (Member # 1181) on November 14, 2005, 17:13:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
serish == U? U hasn't posted for a dogs age, but he posted a lot of the same kind of thing.

I don't think it's U. He's not the type to come around under a new name. I also see that he's been here in the recent visitors list sometimes.

Plus, I thought serishema was a girl.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on November 14, 2005, 17:15:
 
Sky you are much too bright, and much to sweet to believe what you have posted here. At bottom you have to have faith in love, because the alternative is just so sterile. You have to leave yourself open to life love and adventure, or you will just die of boredom, and then suffer regret.

Perhaps you might try to not give quite so much of yourself, when you fall next time. Try to keep things light hearted and fun. It'll make you seem more mysterious too! While it is always a roller coaster ride, you might then feel less broken up if things go wrong. Most people only have their heart thoroughly broken once, as the process is not only wretched, but also wastes so much darn time! I am sure you will have the much happier experience you deserve next time.

And remember, if anyone does treat you badly, just tell and I'll see what I can arrange! [evil]
 
Posted by YaYawoman (Member # 4505) on November 14, 2005, 18:49:
 
Hey girl. The bitterness I can understand but that road leads only to an empty dead end. Please trust me on that.

I have been physically hurt by "love". Bitter and cynical do not begin to describe it. But those emotions poison your soul, and twist who you really are inside.

It is hard,but try to let go of your bitterness and fear and let other people get to know and enjoy you.

Better to let go and enjoy the rush and the joy of infatuation and love. Just don't take the infatuation so seriously. Sometimes they fade, but sometimes they deepen and become something truly amazing. How will you ever know if you don't let yourself find out?

Why not just try? Why not laugh while you risk it?
 
Posted by supergoo (Member # 2280) on November 14, 2005, 20:10:
 
Neither be cynical about love;
for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment
it is as perennial as the grass.


[Smile]
 
Posted by Black_Pearls_and_Lace (Member # 4586) on November 14, 2005, 22:00:
 
What I was going to say, that love and infatuation are very different things, has already been wonderfully said.

My impression from reading the initial post is that you have constructed an image of yourself as an utilitarian machine, geared towards production and trying to cut maintenance costs short. A robot cannot sweep a floor properly if there are toys all over the floor. Therefore, toys are an incovenience since they decrease productivity. A computer will process an important application more slowly if there are unimportant ones running at the same time. Et caetera.

Repeat after me: I am not a robot. I am not a computer.

You are human and humans need overall happiness in order to function. The tricky thing about happiness is that it is not monolithic, but multi-faceted. We need security, success in our undertakings (whether it's building a perfect body or writing the great novel or designing the meanest computer ever), affection, belonging, love, and many other things. Our brains have instinctive, emotional, and cognitive components. Unless you extirpated parts of your brain, you could not be strictly rational. Therefore, you need to understand that all components play a part in your life and need at to be at least in fair (if not perfect) balance in order for the whole to function well. For example, you cannot function well if you lack affection and love. Your work may be good, but you'll feel sad, empty, and bitter. And since work is only part of what you are as a human being, you are not functioning very well on the whole right now. Most of us aren't, but it's always possible to improve your general state.

So the first step is to accept your non-rational parts and devise strategies for how to better deal with them. Don't see them as incoveniences for your work, but opportunities to expand your human potential and experience.

Also, love is not exactly irrational. We may be attracted to random people, but we only get to love those with whom we feel a deeper emotional and intellectual connection, those who, in the long-term, will allow us to function better, as a more complex human being. So we have control over whom we fall in love with to a certain extent. That's why most of us take a certain amount of time choosing a life partner and why we don't just get married at 15 (even if it were legal, we wouldn't be doing it).

The fact that you mention mostly infatuations proves that, although you are probably very intelligent and accomplished, you are not sufficiently emotionally developed. I'm not insulting you - a lot of very intelligent people are because it's harder for us to find compatible partners. I am almost 25 and I think it's only during the past year that I have reached a normal emotional development (while many average people were at this stage when I was 20). The good thing is that you will learn faster than someone with an average intelligence because you are more analytical and can make better sense of what is going on and better choices in the future.

Another thing I noticed with intelligent people is that we are more prone to a courtly-love, Petrarchan type of attitude towards love, which limits the experience of real emotional connections. We turn inwards and long and obsess and never do anything about it. This is when it becomes disruptive. Once you start acting on it, it becomes less alien, less scary, you start seeing the benefits, you grow, you become more ready to move on to the real love stage.

All this makes us more complex than robots, although maybe less efficient at tasks-at-hand. Even so, we experience more facets of the world than a robot could. So why limit yourself?
 
Posted by serishema (Member # 4481) on November 15, 2005, 01:50:
 
Wow. A lot of discussion this has turned into just from some bitter ramblings when i was in a bad mood.

quote:
Originally posted by Black_Pearls_and_Lace:

My impression from reading the initial post is that you have constructed an image of yourself as an utilitarian machine, geared towards production and trying to cut maintenance costs short.

That'd be right, at least some of the time. It's really a question of which came first. I wasn't always like this.

Me two years ago; I saw infatution as harmless fun, i'd chat up whoever it was who caught my eye, make jokes with them, if they weren't interested in me i'd turn it around some how to say well you're not my type anyway. When i was first year uni I got the nick name "every girl" because i'd ask girls out without stressing over whether they were that way or not.

Then everything changed. The usual pattern happened once more but this time I was left completely dead inside. That was the "Evil girl in my CS class" I speak of. That was a year and a half ago, but nothings changed. She's not really evil, just straight and for some reason that time I lost the plot. I'd probably had 100s of harmless crushes on straight girls. What made this any different? But it was and i still don't understand what happened to me.

That machine image is the autopilot that took over after "I" couldn't go to class anymore because I couldn't stand the sight of her and didn't do anything except cry and listen to trashy music which is probably actually normal, just i'd never done that before.

Then i got diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome.
Supposedly i'm stuck with the emotional maturity of like a 14 year old and will be stuck that way forever.
Then i'm like this is why whatever I do sooner or later everyone hates me and i gotta start again. It's hard to stay optimistic about something when you know you're bound to failure by your own brain chemestry, so I attempted suicide. I didn't need to bother cos really, i'm already dead.

quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
Hey girl. The bitterness I can understand but that road leads only to an empty dead end. Please trust me on that.

It is hard,but try to let go of your bitterness and fear and let other people get to know and enjoy you.


Is there even a way back? The fear is right i've been avoiding people for so long because somehow i just know the same thing will happen again and again. But really if i keep going this way i'm already dead so it's not like i've got anything to lose, maybe i'll find out they were wrong and i'm not bound to failure after all.

quote:
Originally posted by FireSnake:
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
serish == U? U hasn't posted for a dogs age, but he posted a lot of the same kind of thing.

I don't think it's U. He's not the type to come around under a new name. I also see that he's been here in the recent visitors list sometimes.

Plus, I thought serishema was a girl.

Nope, who is this U you speak of?
and yes i'm a girl.

I don't know sometimes I think i'm crazy and need help or something, but what can they do?
 
Posted by ubergeekprincess (Member # 4428) on November 15, 2005, 02:23:
 
I have to say, I agree. I don't believe the feeling that people refer to as romantic love exists. I believe you can love your family and friends, and I believe thats the same feeling people have for their significant others...just with a dose of lust added to it. Maybe a cynical way of looking at it...but I've yet to have someone prove otherwise to me.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on November 15, 2005, 02:38:
 
Emotional maturity does not mean to me that you are in control of your emotions. I am 55 years old and quite humiliatingly, I find that I am still absurdly susceptible to wonderful women, and my libido still tries to lead me into trouble, even though I have been faithful to my wife these last 23 years. Harmless flirting is a good safety valve for me. However what it does mean is that you understand more what is happening to you, and perhaps do not invest it with quite as much importance or urgency, and you seem to be doing just fine there Sereshima, so I really do not think that you are quite as stuck as you fear.

I remember asking my grandmother how old she felt inside, and immediately she said 17 or perhaps 18 at top. She was then actually 83 years old.
 
Posted by Platinum (Member # 4596) on November 15, 2005, 03:37:
 
I wonder if infatuation is just an indication of suitable raw material that you could forge into a a lasting relationship (with a bit of patience, time, etc).

I mean, when we're attracted to someone there's usually something there indicating some sort of compatability - better to try to build a relationship on that that nothing at all. And for those who can well do without relationships, or 'love' - "No man is an island". Close social and emotional ties to other members of the human race is 'love' - you don't have to sleep with 'em...
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on November 15, 2005, 10:09:
 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:

Then i got diagnosed with Aspergers Syndrome.
Supposedly i'm stuck with the emotional maturity of like a 14 year old and will be stuck that way forever.
Then i'm like this is why whatever I do sooner or later everyone hates me and i gotta start again. It's hard to stay optimistic about something when you know you're bound to failure by your own brain chemestry, so I attempted suicide. I didn't need to bother cos really, i'm already dead.

From what I understand regarding Asperger's, it's very difficult to deal with, but you aren't necessarily "bound to failure."

Take this article, for example:
quote:
Many of the weaknesses can be remediated with specific types of therapy aimed at teaching social and pragmatic skills. Anxiety leading to significant rigidity can be also treated medically. Although it is harder, adults with Asperger's can have relationships, families, happy and productive lives.
It sounds like depression has left you pretty pessimistic. If you aren't already getting treatment for that, you might need to look into it.
 
Posted by skylar (Member # 1422) on November 15, 2005, 13:27:
 
quoting Calli:
Sky you are much too bright, and much to sweet to believe what you have posted here. At bottom you have to have faith in love, because the alternative is just so sterile. You have to leave yourself open to life love and adventure, or you will just die of boredom, and then suffer regret.
You make a very good point. My logical mind tells me that the pursuit of love, and all forms of infatuation are problematic and ultimately pointless. But, yes, sterility is even worse. Perhaps I just keep punishing myself to keep it interesting [Wink] . It might make life a little 'safer' to convince myself that love is pointless, but I guess I can't crush the idealist in myself who secretly thinks that the impossible might happen someday.

Perhaps you might try to not give quite so much of yourself, when you fall next time.
Unfortunately, I'm all all-or-nothing type of gal. I think this is a problem a lot of geekily minded people have. They are so worried about the potential relationships that when they are actually with someone, they invest far too much into it, and the world ends if something goes wrong.

And remember, if anyone does treat you badly, just tell and I'll see what I can arrange! [evil]
[Big Grin] ... you shouldn't have said that. Expect a van to drop off a bunch of grumpy looking ex-bfs and crushes on your doorstep tomorrow morning [Wink]
 
Posted by Black_Pearls_and_Lace (Member # 4586) on November 15, 2005, 18:50:
 
Hmmm, Asperger's might actually justify why you see yourself as a machine. You're also more susceptible to failure since you have fewer people to choose from, which doesn't help the morale either.

I too would advise you to seek some form of treatment. You are young and intelligent, and I think these two work in your favor: you are not yet solidified in your ways as a 50-year old may be and you can learn how to rationalize feelings as beneficial. Perhaps some kind of therapy aimed at social development would be a good start. I'm far too ignorant to give any specific advice, but you could do some research and see what would work for you.
 
Posted by musicbunnydancing (Member # 3756) on November 15, 2005, 23:38:
 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

It doesn't really make much sense to be a victim of some unknown algorithm that selects a particular person for you to focus inordinate amounts of your attention on, even when this is clearly counterproductive.

I'm happy on my own doing my own thing until I enivitably get infatuated with someone which disrupts my nice little routine. I have yet to see an instance where this doesn't end up having negative utility value.

I've thought romantic infatuation should simply be genetically engineered out of the human species. I'd be up for that.

It's not a game I can play, even when someone returns my supposed feelings (which i really view as an error in my program it's not in my power to correct) I just leave a trail of destruction because envitably I realise i'm all happy for no reason and it all wears off. Completely irational behaviour on their part usually follows. I think crazy bastard/bitch (as the case may be) and get out of there.

Does anyone else feel this way?
Does anyone else wish this thing people call love would just go away?

What strategies of avoidance do you use?
Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).

How can you be bitter about amour at 21 years of age? Speaking for myself at 20 I'm very much enjoying the life of amour.
 
Posted by YaYawoman (Member # 4505) on November 16, 2005, 02:31:
 
Therapy, medication, treatment options, check, check, and check. I know you are doing everything you can to follow up on all those good suggestions. At least I hope you are.

Obviously, I am not qualified to offer any clinical advice. I do have some suggestions for average everyday stuff, however. ( I apologize for not posting back sooner).

There is always a way back. Maybe you need to work on re-defining for yourself what is success,what is meaningful, what it is you need to function.

Start small. Make small overtures to people. I'm talking field trips to the mall to engage sales people in eyecontact and conversation, practicing small talk w/your teachers, just nodding as you walk past people on the way to your class. Slowly re-connect with people in a superficial controlled way and try from there.

Always try. Not trying is one of the few things I classify as a sin. I hope this was even atiny bit helpful. Sometimes just knowing someone is listening is helpful, no matter what they say.
 
Posted by FireSnake (Member # 1181) on November 16, 2005, 19:08:
 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
Nope, who is this U you speak of?
and yes i'm a girl.

U is short for Uilleann. He used to post here, some of which were on similar topics to your initial one, and where he expressed a similar viewpoint. IIRC, he was also diagnosed with Asperger's. He stopped posting a while back, I think mostly because he was looking for more directed conversations about technology than we tend to engage in around here.
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on November 21, 2005, 08:49:
 
Originally posted by skylar:
I blame you for making me so bitter.

I do have that effect on women.

Lol, j/k, GM. I blame the government. If in doubt, always blame the government [Wink] .

Of course, because it's typically Government's fault. In this case I blame someone else...

But what if the pain outweighs any pleasure that you may have felt?

Is this REALLY ever the case. Where even in the darkest moments, we can still grasp on to the pale light of happy memories... I mean, there has to be a moment that you were happy enough to make all the crap worth it...

In that case, isn't the whole thing just an exercise in pointlessness?

Depends on what the point is... If it is your sole point in life to make millions of dollars, or make/fix/invent as much technology as you can... Yes, love would seem pointless. If your point in life was to live; then, love is not pointless, in fact it'd be paramount.

Quoting Support... Err Fire ... what ever she goes by today...
I don't think it's U.
I didn't either. It just sounded a lot like U's point of veiw in regards to love.

He's not the type to come around under a new name.

No, he isn't, except that half the people on this page are same person, remember. [Wink]

Plus, I thought serishema was a girl.
It's the internet, can you really be sure? [Razz]
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on November 21, 2005, 08:56:
 
Quoting Skylar
It might make life a little 'safer' to convince myself that love is pointless, but I guess I can't crush the idealist in myself who secretly thinks that the impossible might happen someday.

Who says it's impossible... But if you think it is, then you are making it impossible.

Unfortunately, I'm all all-or-nothing type of gal. I think this is a problem a lot of geekily minded people have. They are so worried about the potential relationships that when they are actually with someone, they invest far too much into it, and the world ends if something goes wrong.

The first few times, it is the end of the world. As time goes on, you realize you aren't as fragile as you thoughtm and you begin to build a thicker skin.

... you shouldn't have said that. Expect a van to drop off a bunch of grumpy looking ex-bfs and crushes on your doorstep tomorrow morning [Wink]

To all -
If I suddenly dissapear, you know what happened. Please inform my next of kin.
 
Posted by serishema (Member # 4481) on November 30, 2005, 04:43:
 
Thanks GM you made me laugh :-)

oh dear, I can't believe I posted this. This is just sad I shouldn't be allowed an internet connection when my favorite geek boi at the time gets a girlfriend.

If I wasn't already getting it, i'd say i needed help.
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on November 30, 2005, 09:17:
 
I made a small mistake, because I had too many tabs open. Ignore the previous version of this post.

Thanks GM you made me laugh :-)
Welcome. But seriously, if I disappear...

oh dear, I can't believe I posted this.
This post or the thread starter? I imagine you mean the thread starter.

This is just sad I shouldn't be allowed an internet connection when my favorite geek boi at the time gets a girlfriend.
Well, that would explian the bitterness in the thread starter. How much time do you spend with this boi geek and his gf? If it's a lot, then just get in the habit of imagining the gf being destroyed in the most vicsious ways possible... It helps, really. [evil]

If I wasn't already getting it, i'd say i needed help.

*sings* "Can I get a little help with my key...."
 
Posted by skylar (Member # 1422) on November 30, 2005, 14:35:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
But seriously, if I disappear...

...then everyone will pretend they never saw or heard a thing (because I will bribe them with cake! Yes, cake!). [evil]
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on November 30, 2005, 16:05:
 
quote:
Originally posted by skylar:
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
But seriously, if I disappear...

...then everyone will pretend they never saw or heard a thing (because I will bribe them with cake! Yes, cake!). [evil]
Cake you baked? Without burning down the kitchen? Now, I know this isn't reality we're talking about... [Wink]
 
Posted by skylar (Member # 1422) on November 30, 2005, 16:21:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Cake you baked? Without burning down the kitchen? Now, I know this isn't reality we're talking about... [Wink]

Hey... I cook now! And no, the sky hasn't fallen, nor has hell frozen over. Welcome to the new reality, and expect to mysteriously disappear any day now [Big Grin]
 
Posted by serishema (Member # 4481) on November 30, 2005, 18:53:
 
that's clever skyler. I still burn it 8 times out of 10 if I try to do any baking.

I spend lots of time with him, but have never actually met his gf. He just goes on and on and on about her and it's drives me nuts sometimes, cos i'm looking at him and thinking you're mine, but obviously he's not.

It's getting better. I was with him the other day and this is the first time I didn't have to find an excuse to run away.

Hopefully I'll just get interested in some hot girl and this will all go away.
 


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