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Posted by Coffee_geek (Member # 1608) on June 08, 2003, 15:34:
 
I know it might be silly, but something has been bothering me lately. I see it everywhere I look, looming behind every bush, peering from behind every corner. That's right, misuse of 'hopefully'.

Every time I hear someone tell me that 'hopefully it will rain tomorrow', I want to either scream and claw my ears out, say 'will it now?', or kill the offender.

Because, dear readers, 'hopefully' is an adverb. You can open an envelope hopefully, but it's a strange parcel that hopefully contains a paycheck. A sentient parcel, I'd warrant.

Examples of proper usage:
"I looked out the window hopefully"
"I hope it will rain"
"I opened the mailbox hopefully"
"I hope someone sent me money"
"I answered the phone hopefully"
"I hope everything is okay"

Thank you for your time.

Seeming and Dreaming,
Coffee
 
Posted by Shapeshifter (Member # 2105) on June 08, 2003, 17:04:
 
I no longer feel bad about nagging people on AIM to actually capitalize and punctuate.
 
Posted by Punk Rawk Poet (Member # 2174) on June 08, 2003, 18:15:
 
I once slapped someone for confusing borrow/lend.
 
Posted by Slurpy (Member # 2050) on June 08, 2003, 21:18:
 
Just start shooting the offenders. That'll show 'em. [Big Grin]

As a side note, "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern" is the only good thing that Stoppard has ever done, besides showing us Gwyneth Paltrow's breasts [hearts] .
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on June 08, 2003, 22:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Coffee_geek:
I know it might be silly, but something has been bothering me lately. I see it everywhere I look, looming behind every bush, peering from behind every corner. That's right, misuse of 'hopefully'.

Uh, oh... I'm a "hopefully" offender. I will try my best to curb this bad, bad habit. Hopefully, my hard work will pay off! [Wink]

Jess
 
Posted by Shadow (Member # 1558) on June 09, 2003, 01:07:
 
I hope hopefully in hopes your hopefully's become hope's where hope is hope and not hopefully.

Sorry, had to do it. [crazy] [Big Grin]

(Pulls on the asbestos shorts)

-Shadow
 
Posted by Coffee_geek (Member # 1608) on June 09, 2003, 12:27:
 
Punk Poet: I can see that. Confusing borrow and lend is truly a crime against god and man. They are opposites, for god's sake. On a related note, I have a friend from Canada, eh, who pronounces it "Bo-row", wheras most people I know pronounce it "Bah-row". Any ideas?

Jess B: For shame.

Shadow: *Attempts to light your pants on fire, fails* Damn you, and your asbestos undergarments!
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 09, 2003, 12:39:
 
Bah-row??? Are you fscking serious??? [Big Grin] [Big Grin] People actually say that???? Too funny!

Hey, I know a guy who says brang as in "I brang my coat, in case it rains."

I gave up correcting him years ago.
 
Posted by iCoach (Member # 2141) on June 09, 2003, 13:53:
 
Ok, on the topic of grammatical irritations...

I am by no means a poet, nor do I profess to be one. However, I was raised in Seattle, upper-middle class, and was taught correct (American) English.

Since then I have moved to Wisconsin and everything went straight to the $h*tter. Mainly due to the influences of locals.

I offer you some examples of the local influences:
"Can you borrow me some money?"
"He borrowed me the car."
"The Frozen Tundra" - actually I think this term was coined by someone from Chicago (it refers to the stadium where the Packers play).*
"How about you and me going out to the bar tonight?"
"You free on Friday, say around 3pm - erno?" **
"Take a left at the stop-and-go lights."***

* In case the stupidity of this isn't evident, a "Tundra" is defined as frozen ground, thus "Frozen" is totally irrelevant.

** "erno" seems to be an actual word here, and has worked its way into my own vocabulary. Essentially it is negating the question, such as, "Would you like to go to a movie, or not?"

*** "Stop-and-go lights" refers to what everyone else on the planet refers to as "Stop lights" apparently that wasn't descriptive enough for Wisconsinites.

-iCoach

"Remember, stop-and-go lights timed for 35mph are also timed for 70mph" - me to a a friend

"What are these 'stop-and-go lights' of which you speak?" -friend
 
Posted by Titanium Warrior (Member # 1885) on June 09, 2003, 14:13:
 
Ones that I used to see on IRC all the time:

'Your welcome' instead of, ' YOU'RE welcome'

and

improper use of there, their and they're

TiW
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 09, 2003, 14:19:
 
Cap'n Vic here....reporting from the Northern most GC outpost, where the Tundra is currently *ahem* unfrozen and alive with flora and fauna.

What is frozen, is the permafrost, which varies in depth depending on location, altitude among other variables

Tundra
Pronunciation: tun-dra
Function: noun
Etymology: Russian, of Lappish origin; akin to Kola Lappish tundar hill
Date: circa 1841
: a level or rolling treeless plain that is characteristic of arctic and subarctic regions, consists of black mucky soil with a permanently frozen subsoil, and has a dominant vegetation of mosses, lichens, herbs, and dwarf shrubs; also : a similar region confined to mountainous areas above timberline.
 
Posted by Punk Rawk Poet (Member # 2174) on June 09, 2003, 15:06:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Coffee_geek:
Punk Poet: I can see that. Confusing borrow and lend is truly a crime against god and man. They are opposites, for god's sake. On a related note, I have a friend from Canada, eh, who pronounces it "Bo-row", wheras most people I know pronounce it "Bah-row". Any ideas?

You could slap them... It wouldn't solve the problem, and I don;t generally advocate violence, but it might feel better for a while.
 
Posted by Evilbunny (Member # 970) on June 09, 2003, 19:50:
 
Yes, there's nothing I hate more than people screwing up when they type your and you're! it seems that NOBODY types YOU'RE anymore! It's always "your nice." ANd now I'm messing it up! I've even seen in on turned-in English papers and the TEACHER didn't mark them down for it! Along with it's spelled its! What is going on with society? WHY CAN'T PEOPLE CARE ENOUGH!?!??!

I read the New York Times, The Denver Post, and all these various new books that have come out as of late. ALL of them have TONS of errors in them!! Then I read old books, and they're PERFECT! It's like nobody knows anything about English anymore, or, I suppose, cares!
Okay, end of rant. Thanks for listening!
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on June 09, 2003, 19:59:
 
D0n'7 w0rry, 500n w3 w1ll 4ll 83 wr171n9 l1k3 7h15 4nd punc7u4710n, 5p3ll1n9 4nd 9r4mm3r w1ll 83 m34n1n9l355. S734l1n9 w1ll 4l50 83 4cc3p73d, 83c4u53 3v3ry0n3 3l53 d035 17. [Razz]
 
Posted by Just_Jess_B (Member # 2161) on June 09, 2003, 20:02:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
D0n'7 w0rry, 500n w3 w1ll 4ll 83 wr171n9 l1k3 7h15 4nd punc7u4710n, 5p3ll1n9 4nd 9r4mm3r w1ll 83 m34n1n9l355. S734l1n9 w1ll 4l50 83 4cc3p73d, 83c4u53 3v3ry0n3 3l53 d035 17. [Razz]

No idea what you said, but funny all the same...

J
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on June 09, 2003, 20:09:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
D0n'7 w0rry, 500n w3 w1ll 4ll 83 wr171n9 l1k3 7h15 4nd punc7u4710n, 5p3ll1n9 4nd 9r4mm3r w1ll 83 m34n1n9l355. S734l1n9 w1ll 4l50 83 4cc3p73d, 83c4u53 3v3ry0n3 3l53 d035 17. [Razz]

No idea what you said, but funny all the same...

J

What? You're not 1337? You can use this to translate -Hacker Translator
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 09, 2003, 20:12:
 
Good work G....That must have taken you an hour to type that. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on June 09, 2003, 20:13:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Good work G....That must have taken you an hour to type that. [Big Grin]

Nope, I have hacker translator. [Razz] Never do anything yourself when you can get someone else to do it for you. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 09, 2003, 20:30:
 
Please clarify....you have a hacker chained up in your basement who translates at you beck and call......or is this an actual software app?
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on June 09, 2003, 20:32:
 
Click the link Vic, click the link. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 09, 2003, 21:04:
 
I was afraid it was a link to a web cam running in your basement "hacker bondage chamber"

[Wink] [Razz]
 
Posted by MistecMcetsiM (Member # 2212) on June 09, 2003, 21:26:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Cap'n Vic here....reporting from the Northern most GC outpost, where the Tundra is currently *ahem* unfrozen and alive with flora and fauna.

What is frozen, is the permafrost, which varies in depth depending on location, altitude among other variables

Hmm, maybe I'm not the only special olympian.
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 09, 2003, 21:43:
 
quote:
Originally posted by MistecMcetsiM:
Hmm, maybe I'm not the only special olympian.

There you go......that is the first step....accepting the real you [Wink]
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 10, 2003, 04:09:
 
i ju5t w|5h a|| 7h0s h4xor wank3r5 wud 500n d13 - 4 sl0w, h0rribl3 d34th.
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 10, 2003, 06:30:
 
I'm both amused and scared by how easily I was able to read GMx's and spungo's posts.

Just_Jess_B: Seeing as that program doesn't appear to be able to decode anything (from what I can see from the site - I can't run the app here), the answer is "Don't worry, soon we will all be writing like this and punctuation, spelling and grammer(sic) will be meaningless. Stealing will also be accepted, because everyone else does it".

It's funny - as far as IRC/AIM/ICQ go, I'm getting lazy these days. The most recent cause was a certain other person who uses no capital letters or apostrophes in AIM, and it looked cute to me so I do the same sometimes [Smile]

I used to do all the u/ur-type stuff to ease on typing (my bad typing was really holding me back in fast IRC conversations and it gets stressful) but someone got upset and I finally went back to using real words for the most part (and now I, too, think u/ur/etc. look sucky). I still let up on IRC, though - I don't often bother to punctuate correctly - IRC is not an English essay and I don't need to waste the time and effort treating it like one. (Then again, one of the reasons I prefer one-on-one communication in AIM/ICQ is that the rate of conversation is under your control, so you don't freak out at all the text flying past faster than you can read, understand and type in anything fast enough (and legible enough) as a reply.

I do get put off by misspelt forum posts, though - we have time to re-read them, and edit them, so although a few errors here and there are inevitably going to slip in, posts riddled with stupid mistakes are just sloppy and careless, and to me, this reflects badly on the poster.
 
Posted by MistecMcetsiM (Member # 2212) on June 10, 2003, 21:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by MistecMcetsiM:
Hmm, maybe I'm not the only special olympian.

There you go......that is the first step....accepting the real you [Wink]
The funny thing about you is that you are incapable of letting go of a grudge which you have decided to hold onto. I used to be that way. It's nice to be free of that bull. I find it difficult to feel anything but pity toward you.

*knows I'll receive yet another snide remark from vic about this but doesn't really care*
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on June 10, 2003, 22:22:
 
I used to do all the u/ur-type stuff to ease on typing (my bad typing was really holding me back in fast IRC conversations and it gets stressful) but someone got upset and I finally went back to using real words for the most part (and now I, too, think u/ur/etc. look sucky).
Heh, "u/ur/etc" looks like a directory to me...
Seriously, abervations that are common to speed up typing skills is very important to me in chat... I am a slow typist, not having learned to "type," but being fairly good with the keyboard from the amount of times I spend at the keyboard.

I still let up on IRC, though - I don't often bother to punctuate correctly - IRC is not an English essay and I don't need to waste the time and effort treating it like one.
I agree, unless the meaning is muttled beyond comprehension.

I do get put off by misspelt forum posts, though - we have time to re-read them, and edit them, so although a few errors here and there are inevitably going to slip in, posts riddled with stupid mistakes are just sloppy and careless, and to me, this reflects badly on the poster.
(Read: Anything I post reflects poorly on me.) Look, yes, it has more to do with my lazyness than my dislexia... but I post here for fun, because I like you guys. If people can't get past my spelling, they can ignore my posts... I don't care about being popular, as long as I am able to comunicate with my friends here. If some one is as shallow as to judge people by how they speak rather than what they say then I probably don't care to be friends with them anyway.
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on June 10, 2003, 22:34:
 
Sorry to double post, but just had to go dict Hopefully... and found:

code:
From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:

hopefully
adv 1: with hope; in a hopeful manner; "we searched hopefully for a
good position" [ant: {hopelessly}]
2: it is hoped; "hopefully the weather will be fine on Sunday"

So, "hopefully it will rain" is right... sorry CG.
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on June 11, 2003, 08:15:
 
That second definition is just because that is how it is commonly used, not because it is the proper way to use that adverb. Did you know that "D'oh!" is in the dictionary now?
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 11, 2003, 17:16:
 
GameMaster:
I do read your posts, despite the spelling. However, it does take extra effort on my part to re-read parts of them until I can figure out quite what they're meant to say - effort that was meant to be yours. Dyslexia is one thing, and unfortunate, but laziness is another – it can't do any harm to make your posts a little bit easier for everyone to read.
 
Posted by MacintoshGeek (Member # 960) on June 11, 2003, 19:40:
 
I am no English major, heh, but I looked up webster.com:

quote:
Main Entry: hope·ful·ly
Pronunciation: 'hOp-f&-lE
Function: adverb
Date: circa 1639
1 : in a hopeful manner
2 : it is hoped : I hope : we hope
usage In the early 1960s the second sense of hopefully, which had been in sporadic use since around 1932, underwent a surge of popular use. A surge of popular criticism followed in reaction, but the criticism took no account of the grammar of adverbs. Hopefully in its second sense is a member of a class of adverbs known as disjuncts. Disjuncts serve as a means by which the author or speaker can comment directly to the reader or hearer usually on the content of the sentence to which they are attached. Many other adverbs (as interestingly, frankly, clearly, luckily, unfortunately) are similarly used; most are so ordinary as to excite no comment or interest whatsoever. The second sense of hopefully is entirely standard.

Then I looked up disjunct:

quote:
Main Entry: 2dis·junct
Pronunciation: 'dis-"j&[ng](k)t, dis-'
Function: noun
Date: 1921
1 : any of the alternatives that make up a logical disjunction
2 : an adverb or adverbial (as luckily in "Luckily we had an extra set" or in short in "In short, there is nothing we can do") that is loosely connected to a sentence and conveys the speaker's or writer's comment on its content, truth, or manner -- compare ADJUNCT 2b

So it seems "Hopefully we'll have an extra set" is correct, no?

Steve
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on June 11, 2003, 22:27:
 
Yes, it is correct... But it is a derivative that some purists would call "improper." To such purists, I can only point out that English is a living language. The meanings of words will change, and this is a case where the change has already happened, and there is no use crying over spilled milk. Especially if you use a mac, "Think Different" should be "Think Differently"
 
Posted by neotatsu (Member # 1429) on June 11, 2003, 23:38:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Coffee_geek:
On a related note, I have a friend from Canada, eh, who pronounces it "Bo-row", wheras most people I know pronounce it "Bah-row". Any ideas?

Yes, while I pronounce it 'Bah-row' out of habit, it's supposed to be 'Bo-row', 'Bah-row' is how you pronounce "Barrow", which is "A large mound of earth or stones placed over a burial site." Such as the Barrow Downs in LotR [Wink]

[devil wand]
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on June 12, 2003, 00:25:
 
This is purely personal, but whatever the dictionary says, I just find the modern use of hopefully ugly. It also takes longer to say and is less direct than saying "I hope". Shorter simpler more direct speech is better. However I regret that I do sometimes use the word that way myself!

Another modern usage that I dislike is "stress" as a catch all word covering everything from a minor annoyance or a slight concern to seething anger and righteous fury. I probably also dislike the implication that it is always morally wrong and a breach of Teenage Human Rights, but also whenever someone says they are stressed I also get a rather comic mental picture of girders inside them.

One more word that seems to also be changing meaning is "harsh" which seems to be losing its connotations of ruthlessness and severity, and gathering many rather indistinct meanings from cruel to unsentimental.

But Gamemaster is right, language is living and meanings move and change.
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 12, 2003, 02:02:
 
Was it Socrates who said 'Hope is a waking dream'? I met a girl called Hope, once - though she was more of a wanking dream. [Smile]
 
Posted by Slurpy (Member # 2050) on June 13, 2003, 02:34:
 
Barrow Wights! I was sad they weren't in Fellowship [Frown]
 
Posted by neotatsu (Member # 1429) on June 13, 2003, 02:51:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
Barrow Wights! I was sad they weren't in Fellowship [Frown]

Yes, so was I... They always leave out poor old Tom Bombadil-o.. And he has such nifty songs too [Frown]
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 13, 2003, 07:02:
 
Well, it wasn't their absense that bothered me, but something that my sister pointed out – Aragorn brought along four swords (to make up for the hobbits not taking them from the barrow), but was only expecting to meet two hobbits. Last I read, he wasn't gifted with psychic powers...
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on June 13, 2003, 11:04:
 
But perhaps he has a propensity for being prepared for any situation that might face him, and figured that 'the more swords, the better.'

And GM, I'm sorry, but I have a great deal of difficulty taking any words on grammar from you. Then again, I might just have a chip on my shoulder for you misspelling "Linux."
 
Posted by Bregalad (Member # 1054) on June 13, 2003, 11:50:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
But perhaps he has a propensity for being prepared for any situation that might face him, and figured that 'the more swords, the better.'

A Ranger knows how to travel light. He wouldn't be packing around a bag full of Hobbit sized swords unless he knew he was going to need them.

On the other hand he was supposed to be carrying around a certain broken sword as his calling card. Sticking it in a "museum" in Imladris was totally wrong. At the same time people who haven't read the book would wonder how the heck he did his job without a usable sword.

Those sorts of story adjustments were probably necessary in order to create a story that would fit into 3 hours and be easy for the general public to "get". Having said that I'm still annoyed at the completely unnecessary changes made in Two Towers. Elves fighting alongside Men at Helm's Deep? JRR must have been thrashing about in his grave.

I would love to have somebody turn LoTR into a television series. A full season on North American TV would be 26 shows. Assume 45 minutes of content each episode and you've got over 19 hours to tell the tale. It would be possible to write an even longer multi-season version that includes all the songs and expands each scene with realistic dialogue. Two full years to tell LoTR on TV? Sign me up to watch every week!!
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 13, 2003, 13:49:
 
Granted, changes had to be made to get a whole book into three hours – I accept this. It was the unnecessary changes in FoTR that bothered me. And the overdramatisation of Khazâd-Dûm with all that rock-swaying stuff, (AKA Z'ha'dum, for B5 fans), while good for non-Tolkien-fan movie goers, really got to me.

I've also wondered, though, whether it would be better to make it into a TV series instead. I have some doubts, but it would certainly give us all the necessary hours, like you said. It might be a while before anyone tries it – waiting until after the films have long since been watched.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on June 13, 2003, 18:17:
 
I'm going to stay out of the LOTR debate. I enjoy the movies for the excellent pieces of cinematic art they are and the books for the excellent pieces of literary art they are.

u/ur go on my pet peeve list. Like ringtones, it drives me up the wall and into the distant hills. But that's just me being irrational. I did get pretty steamed though when I saw my sister writing a skit for school and spelling everything in the script in what I call AIMglish.

I understood GMx and spungo after a lot of concentration. 3L337 or however the hell it's "spelled" makes no sense to me. It's faster to just fscking type.

As far as grammar goes, I'm sure I miss many subtleties. No one formally taught me English grammar; as a honors student I guess they expected me to learn it by osmosis. Most of it I learned by studying French! So I'm sorry to break the rules. Hopefully I'll stop. [evil]
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 14, 2003, 04:34:
 
One word (phrase) that I do need to get using more often is "spinney-rotatey" :D I don't know quite what it means – it's one of Chris's weird made-up words. Then you have things like "right-way wrong-way" and "wrong-way right-way" – referring to which way you drive around the circuit in the game Indianapolis 500: The Simulation when staging crashes. I could never remember which was which of course, but Chris's sayings are cute ;-)

But he's the one who introduced me to such joys as u/ur/prolly (probably)/yer (yeah) and so on, over ICQ, and one of the two people responsible for getting me into trance music (yay). I'm not sure who started me on ICQ (him or Steve), but Chris is also the one who later on told me to try out IRC.

As for grammar – my eye opener to it came from the Klingon Dictionary. This came after about five years of French and four of German at high school, during all such time I'd struggled without ever having any real idea about grammar. Somehow, reading about it in TKD (by which time, it was too late) started to make everything clear at last.

Now, though, all I need is a nice exotic syntax/grammar to be used for Xirnann =]
 
Posted by greycat (Member # 945) on June 23, 2003, 09:40:
 
A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
by Mark Twain

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.
 
Posted by iCoach (Member # 2141) on June 23, 2003, 09:58:
 
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
by Mark Twain

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

That was extremely painful. I think I am going to go dissolve in the corner...
 
Posted by cheezi git (Member # 1598) on June 23, 2003, 12:59:
 
i don't see the problem with using "hopefully". it is just a contraction of "I am speaking to you in a hopeful manner". i'm a syntactic libetarian: language changes, it's not something carved in stone to be learnt for ever more. grammar descibes language, it doesn't shackle it to the needs of narrow minds.

and frankly my dear, i don't give a damn
 
Posted by Coffee_geek (Member # 1608) on June 23, 2003, 15:23:
 
*mumble mumble* Just because it's in the dictionary doesnt... make it... right *breaks down into tears, cursing the Dictionary*
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on June 23, 2003, 17:58:
 
Speaking of LOTR spinoffs, has anyone seen the cartoon version? Is it any good?
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on June 23, 2003, 21:26:
 
No, but I've heard it really, really sucks.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on June 23, 2003, 21:51:
 
Oh, OK. Saves me buying the DVD, I guess [Smile]

Apparently the radio play is well worth hearing, though.
 
Posted by Coffee_geek (Member # 1608) on June 23, 2003, 23:19:
 
*clutches ears in pain as brain bursts into flame*

No... noooo! STAY AWAY... the horror... the horror...

If you really like criticizing bad movies, go for it. Look for the Balrog's fuzzy slippers.

Seeming and Dreaming,
Coffee
 
Posted by SupportGoddess (Member # 822) on June 24, 2003, 23:31:
 
Actually, the LOTR cartoons were before the movies.

Anyway, on topic, language fundamentally is used to communicate. I have the same pet peeves concerning AIMglish (I like that Xanth) that other people have mentioned, and I agree with U that poor spelling and grammar lessen my opinion of the poster. (No offense intended to you GM, and you are by no means the only one.)

I have seen way too many emails from people that went through the same public school curriculum I did, probably with the same text books, that appear to be written in an entirely different language. I have listened to mid-level managers giggle over their inability to differentiate between there and they're. Some of these people are just lazy, some are just ignorant, and some are a combination of the two.

Language is flexible, but if you want to bend (or break) the rules you should know them first.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on June 25, 2003, 02:34:
 
SGoddess those are my thoughts too.

And talking more specifically about forum posts, I personally prefer reading posts that aim to be clear and concise. I have great admiration for those who can speak of subtle or personal things simply and directly, and at the other end of the scale, posts that ramble on over several long paragraphs usually have nothing to say, and I often stop reading them half way through. If you are posting here you are trying to communicate with others rather than just work out your own feelings, so try to gather your thoughts before finally hitting that send button.

The guidelines for writing clearly are themselves simple. Try to avoid jargon, slang, or other private language. Short words and sentences are usually better than long ones. Active verbs are usually better than passive (e.g. "Spungo loves wildlife" rather than "wildlife is loved by Spungo"). Don't stretch metaphors and similes too far, as they cease to be apt and just become emptily clever. Check for redundant words and phrases. Break it up into paragraphs.

Naturally these are only guidelines, as there are no rules, but they are good habits to acquire, and if my own posts start breaking too many of these, my personal bullshit meter starts beeping at me!

I hope I am not being too patronising here.
 
Posted by Mr Bill (Member # 553) on June 25, 2003, 05:36:
 
For three years running in highschool, I ended up with the english teacher who decided that "you kids ain't getting enough grammar". Consequently, I now have a built in spell-checker and grammar alarm that goes off whenever I hear or read something "not quite right".

"hopefully" passed right under the radar. This concerned me until I read the second definition where it has been in "common use" since the sixties. This makes sense, I grew up hearing it this way, it is not a recent innovation.

Which now makes me wonder: just how old are the textbooks they are using today?
 
Posted by cheezi git (Member # 1598) on June 25, 2003, 10:23:
 
quote:
Originally posted by SupportGoddess:

Language is flexible, but if you want to bend (or break) the rules you should know them first.

hey sg, where ya bin? it's been a long time since i've seen one of your posts on gc.

welcome back!!!
[Smile]
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on June 25, 2003, 12:11:
 
I 2 M glad to C ya. [Razz]

Actually, the LOTR cartoons were before the movies. yup. I loved the cartoon as a kid.

Anyway, on topic, language fundamentally is used to communicate. I have the same pet peeves concerning AIMglish (I like that Xanth) that other people have mentioned,
As long as both parties understand the meaning of the chat-isms/AIMglish, I have no problem with it. But to each their own.

and I agree with U that poor spelling and grammar lessen my opinion of the poster. (No offense intended to you GM, and you are by no means the only one.)
No offense taken, but I still believe that SEMANTICS is more important than SYNTAX. To judge Devincie(sp), or Shaksphere by their spelling you would do the world a disservice. The formal rules of spelling are relitivly new in any language, and the meanings of words must change over time due to the added cultural changes of the era. Moreover, Devincie had a horrible case of dislecxia and often wrote his notes backwards. I still feel that judging people by the way they talk or type is a mistake, as some of the brightest minds in history have been known not to follow or know the rules.

Language is flexible, but if you want to bend (or break) the rules you should know them first.
But the RULES are new. They have their place, they're even important in a lot of types of writting, but this is not a technical journal, it's a place we come to get away from the hassel of bosses, classes and such, and spend time with people we like. I want to feel comfortable here, not having to worry about the petty concerns of such things as spelling and if "hopefully" has or hasn't taken on a new meaning since the last time I looked.

DM: That wasn't my grammar tip, it was a simple dict... run it yourself. As for my misspelling of “Linux” I assume you, it was a typo and not a spelling error. Frankly, I don't care if you like the use of hopefully in any other form than an adjective... It is the way it is. As for “think different” and “think differently”, if you have a problem with hopefully, this error should follow... Then again, night and nite have both fallen into the language, even if nite does still raise a spelling flag with most spell-checks and isn't in the dictionary. Different is a adjective, it modifies a noun; differently is an adverb, it modifies a verb. Do I care that the Mac commercials are wrong? No, I spell worth shit... so I can't complain.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on June 25, 2003, 13:43:
 
<Xanthine's worthless opinion> AIMglish is fine for AIM and like media. It irritates me, but things get going so fast sometimes that you have to abbreviate or be left behind. But for things like posts on the forums and homework, it's ridiculous and pointless. It makes you look like a pre-teen girl who thinks Leonardo DiCaprio is hot. You don't need to rush your posts, e-mails, or homework. In fact, you probably shouldn't. </Xanthine's worthless opinion>
 
Posted by SupportGoddess (Member # 822) on June 25, 2003, 13:52:
 
Hi Cheezi! I've been busy... lots of stuff on my plate right now.

I saw a post in the Ctrl+Alt+Del forums earlier today that brought this thread to mind. Rule 3 seems to sum up my opinion on written communication. For those offended by words of the four-letter variety, don't click the link.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on June 25, 2003, 14:22:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
<Xanthine's worthwhile opinion> AIMglish is fine for AIM and like media. It irritates me, but things get going so fast sometimes that you have to abbreviate or be left behind. But for things like posts on the forums and homework, it's ridiculous and pointless. It makes you look like a pre-teen girl who thinks Leonardo DiCaprio is hot. You don't need to rush your posts, e-mails, or homework. In fact, you probably shouldn't. </Xanthine's worthwhile opinion>

*pseudo-HTML fixed*

Yes, and that would be a personal opinion of mine that I have expressed in the past and I believe has gotten me in a bit of hot water in these parts. Posting somewhere like the Forums, or composing e-mail is not something that requires *immediate* transmission, so a few moments can be spared for little amenities like spelling and/or grammar. Spelling does happen to be one of my specialties, as I'm apparently not following the norm of geeks/hackers who don't give a fsck about spelling, so I guess I take issue with misspellings more than others do. I also fixed a number of typos in an open source program & its documentation, as I wanted to improve it, and the impression it gives to less technical people about its quality. *Sigh,* yes, I am in fact ranting now...I really should stop before I get burned alive by flames (it would be really ironic for that to happen to a dragon, no?).

P.S. Just for the hell of it, I ran this through Word's spell checker, and with the exception of 'fsck,' it turned out perfectly [Smile] . [Okay, I'd better put on the asbestos now.]
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on June 26, 2003, 01:44:
 
quote:
Originally posted by SupportGoddess:
I saw a post in the Ctrl+Alt+Del forums earlier today that brought this thread to mind. Rule 3 seems to sum up my opinion on written communication. For those offended by words of the four-letter variety, don't click the link.

Thanks SG, excellent rules! Hmmm thinks am I adding anything to the SG's original post? Maybe I am in contravention of rule no 1. [Confused]
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 26, 2003, 02:18:
 
A rule that doesn't allow people to say thanks has to be a pretty mean and unhelpful one... :-) We have too little interaction here on that sort of level, not too much... After all, those rules were targeted at a different kind of message board than what we have here.
 
Posted by greycat (Member # 945) on June 26, 2003, 05:57:
 
quote:
Moreover, Devincie had a horrible case of dislecxia and often wrote his notes backwards.
Hmm... I'd always heard that da Vinci wrote his notes backwards (mirror-image, not spelled backwards) on purpose, because he was left-handed and didn't want to smear the ink by writing left-to-right with the pen in the left hand.

Or is that just an urban legend?

quote:
I still believe that SEMANTICS is more important than SYNTAX.
Yes, certainly, as long as you're not programming computers. [Wink] But there are more than two layers here -- the one you're overlooking is the perception that the reader forms of the writer, based on the quality of the writing.
 
Posted by hey-U (Member # 2128) on June 26, 2003, 06:09:
 
quote:
greycat: I'd always heard that da Vinci wrote his notes backwards (mirror-image, not spelled backwards) on purpose, because he was left-handed and didn't want to smear the ink by writing left-to-right with the pen in the left hand.

Or is that just an urban legend?

"In an era when left-handedness was considered the devil's work and lefties were often forced to use their right hand, Leonardo was an unrepentant southpaw. It has been suggested that this "difference" was an element of his genius, since his detachment allowed him to see beyond the ordinary. He even wrote backwards, and his writings are easily deciphered only with a mirror."

From-
http://www.mos.org/leonardo/bio.html
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on June 26, 2003, 10:26:
 
I have heard that before too, but heard the other more often... I suppose we'd have to look back on his writings for the answer to that.

Spelling in programs, papers, etc. is a lot different than forum posts made on leisure time. I have been better about spell-checking posts as of late; however, my opinion in the matter remains the same. While I think that I have been around long enough for people to make thier judgements about me based on what I have to say, and not how I spell it, I will try to make life easier on you all by spell-checking the majority of my posts.
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on June 26, 2003, 15:07:
 
Not forgetting what I said previously: that it's easier to read correctly-spelt posts, and thus it's thoughtful to offer up posts with good spelling so that readers don't all have to try and work out what misspelt words were meant to say.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on June 26, 2003, 16:46:
 
In addition to all the above and in my view far more importantly if you get into the habit of trying to write more clearly simply and directly, it helps you think more clearly simply and directly.

The opposite is also true. Would hippies have been able to be quite so silly if they had not expressed themselves in such a fuzzy comfortable imprecise way? George Orwell makes the same point in 1984. Insidious religious cults such as Scientology work in a similar way.

This is why I think it is not old fashioned and pedantic to get upset by the degredation or perversion of language, it is an entirely sensible and practical reaction to something that is important.
 


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