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Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 23, 2007, 15:38:
 
I love it! It's so cool! My eyes are open! It's a new lifestyle, one that will help with my weightloss efforts, I hope, and help the planet too. [Big Grin] /me munches a carrot.
 
Posted by iWanToUseaMac (Member # 4993) on January 23, 2007, 15:52:
 
I'll be eating meat until I'm 21 or my body stops growing.
I need protein and cacium and I'm not willing to eat two bowls of peanuts and soya for getting them.
Since vegans reject both milk and eggs, I'm not with them.
Eating animals is part of life cycle.
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 23, 2007, 16:06:
 
There is a lot of information out there about growing children on a vegan diet. It's not as hard as you might think. Soymilk comes fortified with B vitamins, calcium and vitamin D, so you don't have to drink cow's milk if you don't want. Try cutting out one type of meat at a time, like, pork for example. Do that for as long as it feels right, then cut out beef, etc, or whatever you can live without, and so on. That is, if you're interested in the truly superior and logical diet of Veganism.

To get protein you don't have to eat 2 bowls of peanuts and soya. Come on, get real! [Razz]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on January 23, 2007, 16:51:
 
Good for you, Nitro. I respect your choice, even if I'm not making it myself. [thumbsup]
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on January 23, 2007, 16:54:
 
I've thought about doing it once or twice (in order to avoid all the nasty antibiotics and hormones they pump into animals these days). One problem - you have to be a very organized and disciplined individual - just getting the stuff can be tricky - depending where you live. (It wouldn't work around here, for example - "what - you're a vegan? No, I don't think we sell any Spock food here.")

One good thing about it - there's plenty of wonderful vegan curry recipes out there ! And they're actually quite nice.

Good luck!
 
Posted by iWanToUseaMac (Member # 4993) on January 23, 2007, 16:54:
 
Sorry, I feel I'm being too rude. I've just entered college and I've seen how bothering some extremist people are.
I'm being extremist overreacting [Frown]
 
Posted by Zwilnik (Member # 615) on January 23, 2007, 17:16:
 
Cool stuff Nitrozac!

I went veggie about 12 years ago after I realised meat was triggering my migraine attacks, but due to my dietary requirements (ie pizza) I've not been able to go the whole not-hog and go vegan.

As long as you're getting the basic food requirements into your system, everything else is just vitamin supplements [Smile]

Are you able to buy Quorn and stuff like Sos-mix in Canada? You can do great vegetarian or vegan sausage rolls with Sos-mix.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 23, 2007, 17:39:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
There is a lot of information out there about growing children on a vegan diet.

I stopped reading right there. [Wink] [Big Grin]

I guess you don't stop being a card after you've done the comic of the day. [Razz]
 
Posted by stevenback7 (Member # 5114) on January 23, 2007, 17:46:
 
as a son of a dairy farmer i have to strongly advice you to just become a vegaterian instead of a vegan. I myself understand why people go vegetarian but why go vegan ? like i get the whole cruelity against killing animals thing and i respect that but whats wrong with drinking milk or eating an egg?
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on January 23, 2007, 19:45:
 
There's a place for all of god's creatures.

Right next to the mashed potatoes.
 
Posted by ARJ (Member # 157) on January 23, 2007, 19:56:
 
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
as a son of a dairy farmer i have to strongly advice you to just become a vegaterian instead of a vegan. I myself understand why people go vegetarian but why go vegan ? like i get the whole cruelity against killing animals thing and i respect that but whats wrong with drinking milk or eating an egg?

There are some logical arguments about veganism & the treatment of animals for non-meat animal products (although I am not vegan, and could never, ever give up cheese, not on the pain of death).

Do some research on Factory Farms and ethical food & the relative lifespan of mass-farm dairy cows vs. a smaller family farm. Not everyone can get their milk from responsible sources.

As the son of a dairy farmer consider the following hyperbolic scenario: if everyone didn't eat meat but still drank milk, what would happen to all the male cows that happened to be born? Sure, we'd need some for breeding future generations of cows, but not all of them. Would we just feed them and let them frolic happily out on the grass even though they were completely useless? Now let's extend that to chickens/eggs too...

The more extreme vegans also argue that we shouldn't be exploiting animals for their milk or cheese anyway, regardless of logistical issues. I'm not sure I'm in line with that so much. I think if an animal is healthy & happy it's OK to use their protein responsibly. Unfortunately a large chunk of animal products are coming from animals not healthy & happy. WeirdArms is trying to avoid bacon now that most of the pig farms in NSW have become factory farms with horrible conditions. It's a tough battle, but made easier by the fact that we just find it easier to cook vegetarian in general (but the CHEESE-- how can you give up the CHEESE??).
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 23, 2007, 20:49:
 
You know, I have a feeling I'm going to be one of those annoying vegans. [Razz]
Zwil: OMG! Sos-mix, no we don't have that! We do have a company out here that has a lot of soy meat products, Yves. They have pretty good stuff.
stevenback7: OMG! You're a son of a dairy man! What's wrong with drinking milk? I'll start there! Well, for me, I was in denial, as a semi-vegetarian, I didn't really know or want to know about the dairy industry.

Last week I saw a documentary on the documentary channel, about this farmer who documented the details of raising his own meat, and mind you, this wasn't even factory farming, it was a wholesome looking farm! I found the movie completely offensive and horrific, and disgusting and I decided then and there I don't want anything to do with anything that has to do with animal products whatsoever! That meant of course giving up fish, dairy and eggs. I slept on it, then did a little research on the internet the next morning, and was further horrified and disgusted, and that was it, it was like a switch, I just turned "off" to animal products.

Milk is a baddy, for one, there was a cow here in Canada that had Mad cow disease that was a milking cow. Apparently it's not transferrable to humans via the milk with the homogenizing, but still, would you put milk in your coffee if you knew for a fact it was pumped out of a cow with Mad Cow disease? N'uh uh. The next reason is like ARJ pointed out. Cows have to give birth to be milked, so yeah, what happens to the male cows? According to a girl I know who lived on the dairy farm, here in Vancouver Island, they shot all male calves on delivery, "there was a big pile of them". Ok, so, how many male cows die per year? Don't even let me start on the calves that go to veal farms! Then, the dear milking cows are slaughtered for hamburger after four years when they aren't as "productive". How's that for a thank you? "Thank you for all your work, you're going to be hamburger now! Is that ok?" [Razz] Then there's the antibiotics, the hormones, the saturated fat clogging the arteries. THE CHEESE! Hard to give up, I know, I am a big pizza fan, but I try to imagine a dead calf on a pile of other dead calves in the manure heap, when I'm tempted, and it's no problem to turn away from that, and of course, thinking of my weight loss efforts. Oh and my major complaint about milk.... Friggin' farms and their friggin' cows shitting in the friggin' drinking water!!!! My personal and precious drinking water is being poisoned, so much so, we've had to boil the water for 2 minutes to kill the shit bacteria in it. Like, come on! It's a basic human need to have clean water and because of livestock, it's threatened!

Ok, now, what's wrong with eating an egg? Ok, weightloss reason, it's high in saturated fat, bad for the arteries. Then, we have the chicken macerator. In egg production, including all eggs, free range, organic, etc. there lies the problem of what to do with the useless male of the species. I know! Why don't we just toss the little fluffballs into a giant machine that will slice them into bits! Great idea! OK! That's what they do. Free range egg production only promises the chickens won't always be in a cage, but they don't promise the chickens won't be crowded in a tiny area, pecking at each other, coughing their chicken flu germs on each other! Free range/organic egg farmers also kill the surplus males. Hopefully in a humane way, but there's no guarrantees.

So, why in the name of logic and human evolution would anyone want anything to do with that?! There are so many easy, convenient choices you can make. Spungo is right is a sense, you do most of your own cooking, but, that is the best thing to do for weightloss anyway! Cook at home, it's fun, it's healthy, it's happy. Try it! Try a vegan day, and see how it goes, I bet anyone can do it!

...I won't even start on the fishing industry! [devil wand]
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on January 23, 2007, 21:09:
 
Good luck Nitro. Going vegan is not an easy task. Especially if you are like ARJ and love cheese or yogurts.

But one thing is for certain, you will become a hell of a chef. By this time next year, you will have 100 ways to cook chickpeas.

[Wink]
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on January 23, 2007, 21:31:
 
I'm going on an all Vegan diet. I hear they're delicious barbecued. [evil]
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 23, 2007, 21:52:
 
And tofu...

Peanut butter, BTW, is not just a tasty treat. It is also an excellent protein source.

I'm an ova-lacto vegetarian. I don't like meat. I think it tastes nasty, and since I seem to get along just fine without it, I don't eat it. The main issue with any vegetarian diet isn't so much getting enough protein (that's easier to come by that you might think) but getting all your iron and B-vitamins in. This is especially true for us girls because we need more than the guys do. So far, I've been able to get away with not taking supplements, but I might be a freak like that. Leafy greens and whole grains are a good place to start. Eating a wide variety of things is also key. There's no vegetarian snake-oil, no matter what the health food stores might claim. I really think that a lot of the health benefits from a vegetarian diet have more to do with the fact that we veggies just pay more attention to what we eat than the omnivores do.

Cooking vegetarian and vegan meals isn't hard. Find a good recipe book. Talk to friends. A fair number of the meals I make are vegan, more by default than any sort of planning. Vegan entrees and sides are easy. Hell, just throwing a bunch of veggies in a pan and stir-frying is a vegan meal right there. Vegan desserts, OTOH, are a bit suspicious. Eating out will be tough. It's tough for me already, and I'm okay with milk and eggs. Being vegetarian can also be tough while traveling, especially in Europe for some reason. If you buy packaged food, read the ingredients very carefully. Glycerin and other animal products are EVERYWHERE.

Good luck.

Great, this post has made me start craving vegetables. Like I don't eat enough of those already. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on January 23, 2007, 21:52:
 
Well done, Nitro [Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

I went Veggie about five years ago and have never regretted it. I haven't managed the full leap to veganism, as I am too fond of cheese!

I wish you the best of luck with your new lifestyle. [Smile]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on January 23, 2007, 22:27:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Last week I saw a documentary on the documentary channel, about this farmer who documented the details of raising his own meat, and mind you, this wasn't even factory farming, it was a wholesome looking farm! I found the movie completely offensive and horrific, and disgusting and I decided then and there I don't want anything to do with anything that has to do with animal products whatsoever! That meant of course giving up fish, dairy and eggs. I slept on it, then did a little research on the internet the next morning, and was further horrified and disgusted, and that was it, it was like a switch, I just turned "off" to animal products.

One of my earliest memories is of watching a pig get slaughtered (I couldn't have been more than 3), so it would be a little difficult to do the same to me. I do generally try to go with more humane alternatives, though.
 
Posted by joliet_jane (Member # 818) on January 23, 2007, 22:33:
 
Steve Jobs is vegan, therefore it must be good to be vegan!

...or is he pescaterian? Do fish count?
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on January 24, 2007, 02:14:
 
He's a pescetarian, sayeth the Wikipedia
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on January 24, 2007, 03:18:
 
Nitrozac________________________Whew I thought that you were going to sprout leaves or some thing like that.
 
Posted by brainisfried (Member # 3067) on January 24, 2007, 06:52:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Zwilnik:
I went veggie about 12 years ago after I realised meat was triggering my migraine attacks, but due to my dietary requirements (ie pizza) I've not been able to go the whole not-hog and go vegan.

As long as you're getting the basic food requirements into your system, everything else is just vitamin supplements [Smile]

Your migraine attacks might have been caused by the synthetic preservatives in the pepperoni and other pizza meats. They're typically loaded with nasty stuff. If you want a real eye-opener, visit feingold.org. Synthetic coloring, flavoring, and preservatives are blamed for headaches, ADHD, and all sorts of other neurological problems. It would help if most of that stuff wasn't made from petroleum. The simplest way to avoid all that stuff is to shop at Whole Foods Market or equivalent. Feingold maintains a list of "clean" foods if you have to do things the hard way.

It's a good idea to take a multivitamin no matter what diet you follow. I take a multivitamin and flaxseed and fish body oil supplements (to get all three omega-3 fatty acids). Those seem to have the biggest effect.

Don't even get me started on what high-sugar diets do to people.
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on January 24, 2007, 07:56:
 
About eggs: I have heard that they help lower the bad cholesterol level, but I might be wrong.

About multivitamins: although they may be good, beware, as sometimes, too much of a good thing may be bad (as in, too high a level of some - if not most - vitamins can trigger problems, too). So it may be better to only take the vitamins your diet doesn't supply in enough quantity.

Now, to our dear Nitrozac: if it makes you happy, go for it. I, for one, like too much the pleasures of eating (as in tasting, not eating just for the sake of it) to deprive myself of any category of food. I prefer physical activity as a mean to loose weight. (Now, if only I could find one I would really like, would be easy to do, while not disturb my downstair neighbour... err... [blush] maybe I should find myself a lover! [evil] )
 
Posted by Black Widow (Member # 3046) on January 24, 2007, 08:21:
 
Deleted by poster due to apparent smart-assery.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 24, 2007, 08:43:
 
It's always amusing to see the smart-ass comments people make when someone announces they've made a major change in their diet. Is this the herd instinct coming out or are there darker forces at work?

Just wondering...
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on January 24, 2007, 08:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
It's always amusing to see the smart-ass comments people make when someone announces they've made a major change in their diet. Is this the herd instinct coming out or are there darker forces at work?

Just wondering...

Would you expect anything other than smart-ass comments from this crowd? [Wink]
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 24, 2007, 08:49:
 
Well, no, but the phenomenon isn't limited to here.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 24, 2007, 08:57:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
It's always amusing to see the smart-ass comments people make when someone announces they've made a major change in their diet. Is this the herd instinct coming out or are there darker forces at work?

Just wondering...

The thing is, I never heard any irritating, pushy rhetoric from you, or opposition to eating meat. It just isn't your taste, and you left it at that. People pushing ways of diet are almost as bad as people pushing religion.

If you want to eat in a given way, have at it folks - just don't try and tell me that I'm a big bad evil man. [Smile] [For that reason, anyway. [Wink] ]
 
Posted by Mel (Member # 3553) on January 24, 2007, 09:08:
 
A speaker came to my university once and said that humans weren't meant to eat meat because of our teeth. I don't think he knew his facts. I had watched a show on the Discovery Channel about our teeth, and how the pointy teeth are for ripping and the wisdom teeth for chewing tough foods. It stated since we don't eat hard meats anymore, our wisdom teeth are starting to disappear. Food is softer now, and soon maybe we'll have no teeth?

And then the evidence of large hunts (arrows, spears, cave paintings, etc.) makes me assume that meat was one of our main menu items. We almost seemed to have started out as mostly carnivore.

When it comes to ethics of killing animals, Discovery Channel is another great resource. I'm sure we've all seen animals rip their prey apart and start eating it while it's still alive. Now THAT'S good eatin! lol I love to picture animals getting a fair chance in the wild, with humans chasing them with their bare hands.
 
Posted by maximile (Member # 3446) on January 24, 2007, 09:17:
 
"The lion was chasing the gazelle because it wanted to give it a potato."

Ten points to anyone who can tell me where that (probably inaccurate) quote is from.

Anyway, good luck Nitrozac. [Smile]
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on January 24, 2007, 09:21:
 
Hi All__________________________I remember back on my uncles farm, actually he ran it for my grand-mother, that the youngsters were taken away on the days that an animal was butchered. The children could not be present until they were at least eight. I still remember the first time I saw a Hog killed dressed and butchered, that may be one of the reasons I don't hunt.
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 24, 2007, 09:26:
 
Xanthine wrote:
It's always amusing to see the smart-ass comments people make when someone announces they've made a major change in their diet. Is this the herd instinct coming out or are there darker forces at work?

Just wondering...


"the truly superior and logical diet of Veganism"

"try to imagine a dead calf on a pile of other dead calves in the manure heap"

It's a complete mystery why people respond with smartass comments when someone announces that they've become a vegan. [Roll Eyes]

Make your own choices, folks, but quit bashing each other and spreading FUD.
 
Posted by pfmagic (Member # 3534) on January 24, 2007, 09:40:
 
I am 6'2", about 220 lbs, and vegetarian. Obviously being vegetarian did not stunt my growth.
Other notable vegetarians include elephants, rhinos, buffalo and cows - none of which seem to have trouble with diet stunting their growth.
Calcium is not necessary for growth, contrary to what the $20 Billion per year dairy industry claims.
Protein is another myth - most people ingest too much protein. We do not need to eat protein - we need foods rich in amino acids so that our bodies can build protein. The proteins we eat are not in the form our bodies need, therefore they are broken down into amino acids that are then used to build what is needed.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 24, 2007, 09:43:
 
Steen quoted Nitro...

"the truly superior and logical diet of Veganism"

I believe that was a Vulcan joke. [Beard of Peter Gabriel!]

"try to imagine a dead calf on a pile of other dead calves in the manure heap"

I lived in the country on a farm for most of my life, so I don't have to try very hard to imagine that one. Hence I went veggie at 15. [ohwell]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on January 24, 2007, 10:00:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
The thing is, I never heard any irritating, pushy rhetoric from you, or opposition to eating meat. It just isn't your taste, and you left it at that. People pushing ways of diet are almost as bad as people pushing religion.

If you want to eat in a given way, have at it folks - just don't try and tell me that I'm a big bad evil man. [Smile] [For that reason, anyway. [Wink] ]

Agreed, I've run into more than a few vegetarians/vegans who are rather smug about their choice, and that can get annoying. Overall, I just tend to make the occasional wise-crack in good fun, though. [Wink]

"You see, your crazy friend never heard of 'The Food Chain.'"
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 24, 2007, 10:11:
 
Thanks for the support guys and gals! [Big Grin] I figured there'd be some smart-assy comments, but I can take 'em. I thought I'd announce my new committment to the vegan lifestyle because I just feel so darn good about it! I lost a pound already, and it's just been a few days! When I sit down to a meal I made from scratch, I feel great about it. For me, when I get vegan-preachy it's because I'm thinking that the person I'm talking with is intelligent and somewhat compassionate, that, they too may benefit from knowing what they're eating. It's like being a Mac fanatic, you get all excited and animated about it and find it hard to acknowledge that anyone would want to use Windows voluntarily.

One other point of Vegan-ness; I beleive that one cannot be truly aware and in the present unless they are vegan in diet and lifestyle, hence Bhuddism. The vegan diet is the epitomy of eating mindfully. It does wonders spritually, emotionally, and physically.

/me waves hands in the air in a circle; Vegans are one with the mind, body, spirit and planet. [Razz]

Next I'll be exploring yoga and tai chi for exercising veganly. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on January 24, 2007, 10:20:
 
Nitrozac_______________________Me thinks you have become a Tree Hugger, Good luck on your new life style as at times there will be some clowns putting down your personal choices, do as your gut tells you. I do eat more Veg, than most but I still like the meat and fish also. Every thing in moderation is the way I try to live unless I am around Ice cream or Bagels.
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on January 24, 2007, 10:29:
 
Nitro, if you're really dedicated to this, realize that lots of the vitamins, calcium, and protein in supplements are animal-derived. You may very well start suffering malnutrition, anemia, bone loss, muscle weakness, and many other diseases related to lack of calcium and animal protein.

Also, despite the fact that Maddox is a humor writer, he does make the occasional good point. Read up on it if you're veganizing for "ethical" reasons.
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on January 24, 2007, 10:44:
 
I get the nagging feeling that this might be some form of practical joke...however, I still found a lot wrong with the commentary on veganism.

quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
I lost a pound already, and it's just been a few days!

How few is "a few?" That doesn't sound healthy.

quote:
For me, when I get vegan-preachy it's because I'm thinking that the person I'm talking with is intelligent and somewhat compassionate, that, they too may benefit from knowing what they're eating.
Carnivores know just as well as you do what we're eating, we just realize that the true way of nature is that prey must die so that predators might live to be strong.

quote:
One other point of Vegan-ness; I beleive that one cannot be truly aware and in the present unless they are vegan in diet and lifestyle, hence Bhuddism.
Nitro, I've always had a lot of respect for you, but that comment just sent most of it down the crapper. Do you really choose to be so bigoted as to judge another person as "unenlightened" because of what they choose to eat...when you didn't even manage to spell Buddhism properly? How does eating a burger place me out of sync with time and consciousness?

quote:
It does wonders spritually, emotionally, and physically.
I don't see how vitamin, calcium, and protein deprivation are going to make you feel any better about yourself. You're going to be sorely lacking in Vitamins D, B12, and A, as they're only naturally found in animal products like fish oil and beef liver. Your white blood cell count will drop due to lack of B12, leaving your immune system defenseless.

Medical professionals here in the US consider raising a child on a strict vegan diet willful child endangerment, as it disregards their basic nutritional needs in favor of the parents' political stance on eating meat. It's selfish, and more than one child has been whisked off by DSS because their doctor realized that soy wasn't cutting it and the child was near starvation. (My mom used to work for the DSS...oh, the stories!)

So, with all that in mind, what makes you think this is a dietary improvement? Are you just doing this until you lose weight? Are you aware that this might affect your ability to digest meat proteins for the rest of your life?

Don't let PETA influence your health by guilting you into thinking that cows are cute and shouldn't be slaughtered. Poke around in your mouth and feel for those sharp teeth near the front. There's a reason that those are there, and it isn't just to mash up tofu.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 24, 2007, 10:44:
 
Demos, that Maddox piece is the most ridiculous arguement to stay a meat eater I've ever read. [shake head]
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 24, 2007, 10:49:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mel:
It stated since we don't eat hard meats anymore, our wisdom teeth are starting to disappear.

Wow. And here I thought wisdom teeth were disappearing because dentists and oral surgeons were removing them. [Razz]

Demos: the nutrients argument can go around and around in circles. For starters, you can get plenty of vitamin A out of carrots...

ETA: the fastest HEALTHY rate of weightloss is 2 lb/week. If you're dropping faster, you need to rethink your approach.
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on January 24, 2007, 10:50:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
Demos, that Maddox piece is the most ridiculous arguement to stay a meat eater I've ever read.

What part of "animals are going to die no matter what you eat" didn't you understand? Might as well respect them enough to eat 'em and use every part of them, rather than let them to rot without any dignity in a wheat field. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 24, 2007, 11:25:
 
Nitrozac, I would like to add to the support that is being thrown at your feet like fetid boquets of sacrificed calfs. That being said, I think all this hubbub about pro/con-veganism is a little overblown. I cannot, myself, feel too bad about dead animals because I'm a biology major and I must occasionally kill one. However, eating veg is the number one super-happy-best way to maximize the number of (overpopulated) humans fed per acre of land. I have restricted my diet to exclude nipple-bearing critters as they're just too much like us for me to eat them without remorse. Too poor and selfish to take the final step and stop eating flesh altogether.

All you meat-slurping happy folks should be glad that Nitrozac is eating less meat- reduce demand and the cost goes down. More cheap, plentiful meat for the rest of you. [crazy]
 
Posted by CrawGator (Member # 392) on January 24, 2007, 11:26:
 
Although I am by no means vegan or vegetarian, I do applaud your efforts Nitro. If you are having trouble giving up the cheese, there is a solution to the problem. My son is lactose intolerant and he uses the veggie cheese in the link. I have tried them all and I personally do not taste much of a difference. In fact the mozzeralla shreds are fantastic on pizza and since it's soy, you can have it on a vegan diet.

Edit: I found the Canadian portal of the producer of the soy cheese. They list all of the products they sell in Canada. http://www.galaxyfoods.com/ourbrands/canada.asp
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 24, 2007, 11:27:
 
Demos wrote: "What part of "animals are going to die no matter what you eat" didn't you understand? Might as well respect them enough to eat 'em and use every part of them, rather than let them to rot without any dignity in a wheat field. "

The part where one is organized slaughter on an enormous scale, and the other is primarily accidental at an entirely different magnitude.

*Of course* some kind of animal life is going to die or be displaced no matter what you eat. I chose to be a vegetarian because that choice is by far the more humane one. I didn't want to be a part of that intentional slaughter of higher level animals.

IMHO, the article is an example of the kind of black and white extreme thinking we see far too much of these days.
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 24, 2007, 11:36:
 
I can assure you, I'm not wasting away, I lost one pound in one week, with the vegan diet and increased exercise. That's healthy, I'd say, and I'm surprised by how much better I feel physically.

Demos, I think thou dost protest too much! [Wink]

I'm sorry you lost respect for me, due to a typo no less. Really, that's a little harsh don't you think? Also I'm of a philosophy where I feel the same about myself no matter what others opinion of me are. To explain further, my self esteem isn't dependant on others, it's dependant on how I feel about myself. That philosophy is what mental health professionals advocate, btw fyi.

On the topic of respecting animals; I believe it would be disrespectful of me to mindlessly eat meat and animal products based on the farming practises today. I think just leaving animals alone is the most respectful gesture I can make.

On the Maddox arguement; that is ridiculous. I think it's saying "eating meat is less cruel to animals than eating only grain, produce and soy." I'm not going to waste my time picking at this one, the levels of stupidity is quite amazing, IMHO. However if you agree with Maddox, then that's your right to feel that way, I'm not saying you are stupid, I'm saying the article is stupid, and what I think shouldn't bother you anyway.

On the poor, starving, vegan children out there; Ok, what vegan diet were the kids fed? Potato chips and soda? Then yeah, get those kids outta there! Otherwise, if they were kids being fed plenty of fresh fruits and vegetables, organic possibly, and whole grains, soy, beans, flax, etc, then I find it quite horrifying that you live in a society where such loving and thoughtful parents would live in fear that their fascist government may take their children away from them and put them in foster care where they have a chance of being abused. OMG, I'd move out of that country if I had kids. FYI, I don't have kids and I'm not a kid, so I'm really not that concerned about that issue really.

Ok, that should clear things up. I hope. /me munches a celery stick. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by bassgoonist (Member # 5044) on January 24, 2007, 11:58:
 
The only thing I don't like about vegans are the idiots who stand on campus and hand fliers and try to force it down my throat. I really don't care how people live their lives, especially when it affects me in no way...
I just hate it when any religious or other group tries to force their views on me.
 
Posted by Ugh, MightyClub (Member # 3112) on January 24, 2007, 12:03:
 
/me suggests this thread move to the politics & religion forum [ohwell]
 
Posted by Stibbons (Member # 2515) on January 24, 2007, 12:05:
 
quote:
Originally posted by bassgoonist:
The only thing I don't like about vegans are the idiots who stand on campus and hand fliers and try to force it down my throat.

You should try retaliating. Hand out slabs of meat and force that down their throats. Bloody hippies. [Wink] [Razz]
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 24, 2007, 12:13:
 
Steen wrote:
Make your own choices, folks, but quit bashing each other and spreading FUD.

Damn... I was hoping everyone would notice that line. *sigh*
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on January 24, 2007, 12:18:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
On the poor, starving, vegan children out there; Ok, what vegan diet were the kids fed? Potato chips and soda?

So you've met my ex-flatmate then?

Actually, her diet consisted of tea, baked-beans and microwaved potatoes, her cats ate a more balanced diet (she bought ridiculously expensive 'vegan cat food').
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 24, 2007, 12:19:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Steen wrote:
Make your own choices, folks, but quit bashing each other and spreading FUD.

Damn... I was hoping everyone would notice that line. *sigh*

I pretty much said the same thing, without the FUD remark, but it also went unnoticed.

I am a bit disappointed by the gross mischaracterizations that have been bandied about. *sigh*
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on January 24, 2007, 12:29:
 
Hi All__________________________Again, just a small sub-note. Some of the do gooders around the state thought that the deer were starving and some were. So the dogooders took hay, alphaha and other grains out to feed the deer. Seems that in the winter deer can not digest hay or grains so they were finding deer with full stomachs malnurised and dying, When the deer were presented the natural food of the season they would not eat it because they were full of junk food, hay, and corn. It seems that their digestive system changes from season to season
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 24, 2007, 13:21:
 
And around here, we have deer overpopulation, and hunting with permits is even permitted on the outskirts of cooperating residential property.
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on January 24, 2007, 13:22:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Demos, I think thou dost protest too much! [Wink]

I'm sorry you lost respect for me, due to a typo no less. Really, that's a little harsh don't you think? Also I'm of a philosophy where I feel the same about myself no matter what others opinion of me are. To explain further, my self esteem isn't dependant on others, it's dependant on how I feel about myself. That philosophy is what mental health professionals advocate, btw fyi.

I do live up to my reputation. [Wink]

The typo wasn't what set off the loss of respect, I was merely using it as an aside. I lost respect for you because:

- You are promoting a nutritional plan that's been scientifically proven to lack essential vitamins, calcium, and animal protein as a "healthier and more enlightened" way of living.
- By promoting this, you imply that I am somehow less "enlightened" by eating animal products. (Did you take into account that my allergy to soy might also prevent me from being as "enlightened" as you are, as well as personal choice?)

The lack of respect for the animals killed while processing the grain, soy, and vegetables that now comprise your diet is far more horrifying to me than slaughter for food. You're not "leaving animals alone," you're remaining ignorant of their deaths because it's more convenient for you to do so. (While it is intended as a humorous rant, the Maddox post does bring up a good point, in my favorite method: peppered with personal insults and profanity. [Big Grin] ) Maddox also leaves out the fact that vegetable farming also introduces pesticides to the environment, wiping out necessary species of various invertebrates. (While bugs might not be as cute as cows, they're just as important to the ecosystem.)

If it was feasible, I would do all this on my own: head for the woods, grab a prey animal by the throat, and make it for dinner myself. Unfortunately, working a 9-to-5 in a big city far from the woods gets in the way of my being Rambo, but it would make for the smallest environmental footprint...lots smaller than mass farming. (Also, it would be totally metal. [Razz] )

(Also note that, due to my own set of ethics, I only eat free-range meat, free of growth hormones, and due to allergies, I can only eat organically grown vegetables and fruit. Is this still less "enlightened" than ignoring my dietary needs and allergies?)

As for the DSS, it is not promoting "fascism," it's promoting children's health and proper nutrition. If you fail to properly feed a cat or a dog, animal control comes to take them away from you. I don't see why it should be any different for children.

Go ahead and do your own thing, but don't think for a second that you're any better, more moral, healthier, or more "enlightened" than those of us who follow our biological drives and eat what we're genetically predisposed to eating.
 
Posted by maximile (Member # 3446) on January 24, 2007, 14:13:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
…

[Applause] [Applause] [hearts]
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on January 24, 2007, 15:22:
 
I could never be a vegetarian, let alone a vegan for the same reasons as Stereo, I just love food to much. The only vegetarian meals that I have enjoyed and felt satisfied by, have been Indian ones. On the other hand I do eat a lot less meat than I used to, and try to ensure that the meat I buy is not factory farmed. It is also interesting to speculate what much of the countryside might look like if it were not grazed.

The other thing that niggles me is when you invite people for a meal, and then find out that one of them is a vegetarian or vegan, as I like the whole symbolic intimacy about sharing food with friends, indeed if someone is eating different food they actually place themselves apart from the rest. In those circumstances I usually prefer to make a meal that everyone can eat, even if I feel the majority would prefer something else, but I don't feel particularly happy about it.
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on January 24, 2007, 16:05:
 
Can't we all just get along?

I'm an omnivore by preference. The meat I have the most access to is that of the student meal service here; very low grade stuff. So I try to supplement my diet with apples and banannas from the supermarket, if only to keep me from getting hungry enough to order a greaseburger.

However, that doesn't stop me from loving meat. I'm a huge beef fan, and I hunt regularly. In fact, my dad still has some of the pheasant we harvested back in October... maybe I'll make something out of them when I go back home this weekend.

I've always preferred eating meat that I have harvested myself. The whole process (stalking, shooting (rifle or bow), gutting, butchering, etc) gets me a whole lot 'closer' to my food. Weird thinking, I know, but it makes you realize what all goes in to feeding somebody.

I have no moral qualms about eating mammalian food (unless it's a dolphin or a human or something of a similar intelligence level), and I especially don't mind eating beef. Coming from a state where people are outnumbered 3-to-1 by cattle, I can tell you that cows are über-stupid. They're not cute; they don't have personalities. They're just mangy-looking and delicious.

One thing I've always wanted to do (along with setting up a homestead that used solar, wind, hydro, and bio-fuelcells) is to try and survive on food I'd only procurred myself: vegetables I'd grown, or meat that I'd harvested. Besides which, farm-fresh eggs are god's gift to man (real eggs are brown in appearance with an orangy yolk, and you can eat them raw without much fear of death. Compare that to the paltry pale supermarket eggs most people eat).

I guess what I'm trying to say is, to each h[is|er] own. Nitrozac is going vegan for her own unfathonable reasons, but they make sense to her, and they don't hurt any humans, so no harm no foul. On the opposite extreme we have Demos with blood still dripping down her chin from biting out the throat of a whitetail, but she's still not hurting any people, so the same concept applies.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 24, 2007, 16:09:
 
When I have dinner with people it's usually the company I remember, not the food, and, unless someone calls me out on it and tries to humiliate me over what is and isn't on my plate, I'm not going to feel exiled because the main dish just isn't for me. I can put together a perfectly satisfactory meal out of side dishes. But every now and then, someone who doesn't know me very well decides to get offended and defensive over the choices I make, and I get the whole tiresome round that we've seen on this thread already. And I find that really annoying, because the comments really aren't as clever as the omnivores think they are, I'm not vegetarian over any philosophical reasons, and I'm not trying to evangelize. I'm just trying to eat.

I've met some people who only eat meat they caught and killed. So they eat vegetarian a lot, because hunting isn't as easy as you might think it is. I have a lot of respect for that approach. There're a lot of issues with the food supply in industrialized countries. It's up to individuals if and how they make their stand, and you can always get self-righteous, shake your finger and tell someone they aren't doing enough, but not enough is better than nothing. And there's limits to what people can do. To grow your own food, you need a yard, and you need to be in a place where growing stuff is feasible ie, if you live in the desert, you might not be able to afford the water a vegetable garden requires; if you live in the PacNW, water is no problem but adequate sunlight certainly is. To buy organic food only, you need a bidget that will accomodate that. To hunt or grow your own meat, you need land where you can do so. And so on. So make your choices, take whatever stand you will, and stop sniping at others because they can't or won't do as you do.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on January 24, 2007, 17:37:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
To grow your own food, you need a yard

But not a big one.

Here at Casa del Druid we have a small veggie patch in a corner of the back yard, probably about 4 square metres. It's amazing how much food such a small plot of land can produce, not enough to feed the family, but enough to have something fresh from the garden with almost every evening meal, and the difference in quality is fantastic. Shop-bought veggies just can't compete with an ear of corn or a tomato that was on the plant 15 minutes ago.

Even apartment dwellers can grow herbs and tomatoes in pots if they're on the right side of the building.
 
Posted by stevenback7 (Member # 5114) on January 24, 2007, 17:42:
 
as i quickly glanced over all your posts (i have exams so i can't stay on long) there are some misleading facts.

First about the male calves being shot on site right after being born and put on the manure pile is mostly false. Yes there are some farmers who might go against the law and do that but i know that 99 % + of farmers don't. As for on my dads farm after a week the male calfes are sent to a neighbouring farm where they live happilly running around fields for 1 year +.

As for older cows being shot is also false. Again some farmers do this but as for the case on my dads farm usually healthy cows live for 7 + years which is standard age for a cow. again what about the unhealthy one's? now actually cows live longer on the farm then in the wild because we have medicine and other vetinary supplies on hand to try and save as many ill cows as possible.

As for the manure getting into the water along with dead animals is also false. You are most likely to drink racoon piss then cow manure. Yes again it has happend before where manure has gotten into the water but trust me 99 % of farmers make sure this doesn't happen and if it does it costs them thousands of dollars so that the water can be cleaned. Plus manure is benefical to the land as well.

Next about the mad cow. yes there were actually two mad cows in canada but if you think about the ratio of harmfull cow diseases to humans vs. harmfull plant diseases to humans you will find that plants are more likely to kill you then cows. But the fact is that mad cow disease is in most cases quickly caught and stopped at the source and causes no harm to humans.

As for general cow lifestyle i will give you a little insight. In the morning the cows spend about an hour waiting and getting to be milked which is a quick and clean process. The rest of the day the cows spend eating a well balanced diet which has been customized to the specific season and vitamin, etc contents by a trained proffesional. They drink purified cold water which is available 24/7. They sleep in ergonomically correct sand boxes which provided the most clean enviroment for cows. And in the summer they spend their days eating/sleeping/ running around a large field of delicious grass.

As for the cleanlyness of the milk. First everything about the farm which the milk was produced in has to be grade A quality or it doesn't get accepted. The farm is only accesible to farm personal and business people - other farmers aren't allowed to come near the cows or other things to stop the spread of disease.

There is nothing bad about drinking or eating dairy products. and you will be glad to know that the dairy industry is very keen on animal welfare.
 
Posted by Mr. Dave (Member # 1977) on January 24, 2007, 18:29:
 
Nitro:

As long as you've given this thorough consideration, I'll give your choice the same respect you give mine; that is to say, as long as you don't give me the "Meat is Murder" speil, I won't give you my "Fruit is Abortion" shtick.

As for me, we read Margaret Atwood's The Edible Woman in high school. The protagonist swears off various meats, then eventually all meat, for various emotional reasons. Then, suddenly, she's struck by a mental image of rows of carrots slumbering peacefully in their earthy beds, then being brutally ripped out of the ground, herded into trucks, and carted away screaming in terror to be butchered alive at the packing plant. Really not the point of the novel, I'm very well aware, but it's an image which always leaves me cold and trembly inside and desperately needing to curl up with a warm steak... [ohwell]
--
From life, to death, to life, circle without end. These lives have ended that ours may be nourished and continue; for this we offer thanks and respect, and remember that one day this flesh, too, will become food.
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on January 24, 2007, 18:42:
 
Nitro,

I read your announcement and immediately thought of that sad, lonely little boy who was so desperate for love he wanted to be an Oscar Meyer wiener, you know, so everyone could be in love with him.

I guess now he can't count on you now, can he?

You little heart breaker.

Gotta go, I have a jar full of mung bean sprouts that want to know what happened to their Mommy.

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by Mr. Dave (Member # 1977) on January 24, 2007, 18:55:
 
Okay, I just went back through the posts and found this...
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
... Friggin' farms and their friggin' cows shitting in the friggin' drinking water!!!! My personal and precious drinking water is being poisoned, so much so, we've had to boil the water for 2 minutes to kill the shit bacteria in it. Like, come on! It's a basic human need to have clean water and because of livestock, it's threatened!

Bull$4!t. (Er, wait, I meant...) If you're talking about Walkerton, that wasn't the friggin' cattle shitting in the friggin' drinking water, that was the friggin' drunkard water system operator getting friggin' likkered up on the friggin' job, then friggin' lying about the friggin' water analysis! I grew up, and still live, on a pasture farm (beef cattle, thank you very much!) which is bisected by a small river. Before the Guv'mint made us fence off the river to keep the cattle from getting fishpiss on their hooves, I would regularly see cattle walk into the water to drink or cool off, then climb up on the bank for the express purpose of taking a crap on dry land. The shit in the water is not from livestock, but from municipal sewage treatment plants dumping raw sewage (that's human shit) whenever a rainstorm fills up the lagoons. I don't have the supporting figures within reach, but if you want to make an issue of it I can probably find them again.

As for the problems the Lower Mainland had this past year, I understood that was mooseshit...
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on January 24, 2007, 19:02:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
I'm not vegetarian over any philosophical reasons, and I'm not trying to evangelize. I'm just trying to eat.

Bravo!

When I was living the vegetarianism lifestyle, it was a much too common thing to get crap from both sides. The hardcore "meat is bad" vegans and the "let's grab a steak, you are malnourished" omnivores. And neither one particularly appealed to me.

I quit because I didn't feel like eating meat. I started back when I felt like it.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 24, 2007, 19:17:
 
Cow pooping thread jack:
Mr. Dave: Where we lived previously, 2 years ago, we could see (from our front window) cattle going into the small lake that is the drinking water for the community. Yep, they would poop in there. And on the land too. The cows I know both here in B.C. and back in Ontario don't differentiate between land or water to poop on/in. They just go poo-poo when they have to.

So there the problem was farmers were being allowed to water their herds in that manner. We contacted the health authorities and they forced the farmer to move his cattle. Unfortunately for us that resulted in slashed tires and personal threats from the farmers. We had to move shortly afterwards. [ohwell]
 
Posted by Mr. Dave (Member # 1977) on January 24, 2007, 20:04:
 
Snaggy:

Fair enough; an anecdote is a statistic with a sample size of one, and so cannot be extrapolated. I still say the main source of E. coli in drinking water is not livestock, but sewage bypass.

I also suggest that any further cow-poop debate be piled in its own thread, not in this one...
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on January 24, 2007, 20:28:
 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
I have no moral qualms about eating mammalian food (unless it's a dolphin or a human or something of a similar intelligence level), and I especially don't mind eating beef. Coming from a state where people are outnumbered 3-to-1 by cattle, I can tell you that cows are über-stupid. They're not cute; they don't have personalities. They're just mangy-looking and delicious.

Actually, I've found that cows can have quite a bit of personality. They aren't tremendously bright, but they aren't as stupid as sheep, either. You won't see it on large farms, where they don't have a lot of contact with people other than milking and feeding, but when they get used to people, they can be rather like a dog. I've known more than one that seemed to like playing tag.

 -

That still doesn't keep me from eating them, though.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 24, 2007, 20:54:
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

Even apartment dwellers can grow herbs and tomatoes in pots if they're on the right side of the building.

Only if you have a place to put said pots. Which I, a basement dweller, do not. Not that it would matter...I'm not on the right side of the stinkin' building. *grumble*
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 24, 2007, 20:56:
 
C'mon everyone. Make up, join hands and let's all sing...

All we are saying
Is give peas a chance

 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 24, 2007, 20:58:
 
Screw that. I'm hungry.

/me eats the peas
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on January 24, 2007, 21:11:
 
Lettuce rejoice that we have such a wide range of dietary choices..
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 24, 2007, 22:30:
 
Stevenback7's account of his family's farm has softened my view of farmers, and I applaud his efforts and really appreciate their concern of drinking water and keeping it clean. Wouldn't it be great if all dairy farms treated their animals as well as his family does? [thumbsup]

Xan: [Applause] Good posts!

I was kinda hoping there would be more vegetarians and vegans posting... oh well.

Oh, and someone said something about it's all ok, as long as people aren't harmed... Ok, you better stop eating fish unless you catch it yourself or know who did, because I can tell you, living on the coast where folks work in the fishing industry, there's always a couple fishing men who accidentally fall over and drown, it does happen.

Here's a link I just found, wow! I love it!;
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/WO

Oh man! Here is another link I just found about vegetarians being slimmer;
http://www.pcrm.org/news/release061219.html

OMG! I struck the vegan motherload! Here's an article about reversing type 2 diabetes! I lost my Dad to diabetes, this article would have come in handy a few years ago;
http://www.pcrm.org/health/clinres/diabetes.html
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 24, 2007, 23:11:
 
My opinions on this matter aside, whilst savoring some coffee, and reading up on last night's spiel, I read this in the Times tonight, and figure it ought to be of interest to a few of you:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/dining/24vega.html
(See the "Related" box at top left for recipes.)
 
Posted by Bibo (Member # 1959) on January 25, 2007, 00:27:
 
I've actually gained weight as a vegetarian, but I'm a "Junk Food Vegetarian". Also in the past 12 of my 18+ years as a vegetarian I've sat at a computer and not gotten much physical activity, so it's more of me being lazy. Plus I love my carbs!
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on January 25, 2007, 01:39:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Oh, and someone said something about it's all ok, as long as people aren't harmed... Ok, you better stop eating fish unless you catch it yourself or know who did, because I can tell you, living on the coast where folks work in the fishing industry, there's always a couple fishing men who accidentally fall over and drown, it does happen.

That was me. Firstly, I live in Montana, so I really don't get much fish unless I catch it myself (a rarity... I don't enjoy fishing very much). Secondly, those fishermen are payed for their efforts; nobody is forcing them to fish. It's an occupational choice, and they are justly compensated for it.
 
Posted by Too Cool To Quit (Member # 2217) on January 25, 2007, 07:32:
 
The only thing I know about cow poop is that you can't find shrooms in it if it's sitting at the bottom of the pond. Farmers, show love for your local hippie community, make the cows crap on land ...
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 25, 2007, 08:59:
 
nerd/nofriends: isn't it hard to receive your compensation when you're dead? [Razz]
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on January 25, 2007, 10:20:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Demos, I think thou dost protest too much! [Wink]

I'm sorry you lost respect for me, due to a typo no less. Really, that's a little harsh don't you think? Also I'm of a philosophy where I feel the same about myself no matter what others opinion of me are. To explain further, my self esteem isn't dependant on others, it's dependant on how I feel about myself. That philosophy is what mental health professionals advocate, btw fyi.

I do live up to my reputation. [Wink]

.......

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

I must too, add my commendation for this post. Well put.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 25, 2007, 10:30:
 
The risks involved in commerical fishing are not exactly a secret, especially since the Discovery Channel runs clips about it on their "Most Dangerous Jobs" show. Those that take the job know they are putting their lives on the line. Some may even get off on that. Others are in it for the pay, and/or the lifestyle (live on a boat for a few months, work hard, let the dollars pile up, then spend the off-season goofing around). But they know, and they sign up anyways, and some of them end up paying for the risks they take.

If you want to make a moral argument about not eating fish, center it on the consequences of over-fishing and not on the drowned fishermen. They knew it could happen, they figured it wouldn't happen to them, and they were wrong.
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 25, 2007, 10:35:
 
I maintain that the important thing is that we all get to make our own dietary choices (for now) and we should respect them. There are gouda dairy farmers and there are some who couldn't brie bothered. There are grade-A beef farmers and there are some who don't veal any morrell responsibility one way or the udder.

Within any industry we will find many who are responsible and many others who are not- to single out any whole industry for disparagement is often as great a mistake as is stereotyping an entire group of people. Except for hippies, who often smell really bad. When the rainbow-hippies came through Utah I could actually smell them before I could see them. I'm not kidding.

That said, as a hippy, I must take a stand against all of the big meat industries. Not too close a stand, though, lest they sue me for sexual harassment. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to harass an entire industrial sector? [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on January 25, 2007, 10:35:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
My opinions on this matter aside, whilst savoring some coffee, and reading up on last night's spiel, I read this in the Times tonight, and figure it ought to be of interest to a few of you:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/24/dining/24vega.html
(See the "Related" box at top left for recipes.)

Nice find, Dman. I'm also one of those people that just likes all kinds of food, and some of that stuff looks pretty good.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 25, 2007, 13:30:
 
I'm tempted to try out the cupcakes, just to see how they are.
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on January 25, 2007, 14:11:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
I was kinda hoping there would be more vegetarians and vegans posting... oh well.

I did make a little post in "veggie solidarity".... but I could only manage a few words as I am so weak from living off leaves! [Wink]
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 25, 2007, 14:13:
 
Hm that's interesting, it seems that some people don't even care about the human cost, and devastated families so long as they can chow down on over-fished fish! tsk tsk.

These hard-up fisherman take on lucrative but dangerous fishing jobs because they are lucrative. Why are they lucrative? Because there's a demand for it. So, if you refuse fish on grounds of the industry harms humans, or whatever, then there is less demand, then less fishing, then less lucrative jobs. Get it? Come on, that's just sick that anyone would eat fish and think "oh well, the dummies asked for it." Tell that to their kids. Grr. /me throws a baby carrot in your general directions. [Mad]
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 25, 2007, 14:24:
 
Grummash: lmao! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 25, 2007, 14:49:
 
/me eats a baby carrot , along with TFD's lettuce

I've been working out more. As a result, I've been having obsessive thoughts about food. Throw vegetables at me and I will eat them. [Razz]

In my own defense, I don't eat fish (they taste fishy). But I've known fishermen, and one of my HS classmates went up to Alaska for a season after he graduated to work on a fishing boat. He did it out of personal choice. There was nothing about his life that would force him to that decision. He just wanted to, for some unfathomable reason. Just like some people join the military because they want to. It's not an easy life, but I'd be careful about generalizing, especially in a First World country.

It's kind of old, but here's a break-down of some other dangerous jobs. Here's the 2005 statistics. I imagine it's a bit early for the 2006 ones.
 
Posted by Too Cool To Quit (Member # 2217) on January 25, 2007, 15:25:
 
I've been living off of leaves for a while... but I prefer my leaves VERY well done, before I consume them.

I have a cousin who is a strict vegan and around here that's native speak for "bad hunter." My brother was talking to him at the family Christmas party, and as soon as my brother figured out that he was trying to tell him that he doesn't eat any meat, my brother just blurted out "you're weird as hell, stay away from me." But then my brother is a little close minded, and thinks that his almost all protein diet is the way to go. (but then he's just a knuckle headed wrestler/body builder, so he's going to be a little... arrogant, I guess you would call it.)

I've always thought my cousin was pretty cool, and he's probably the smartest person in the universe (albeit not very humble about it) but I could never go vegan. The food he made and brought was spectacular. I don't know what any of it was, but I was satisfied that it was all vegetables (my relatives use some WEEEIRD meat some times in their cooking), so I ate it. All of it. I don't think anyone else even knew he brought the stuff... But none the less, I have to have some meat in my life, other wise my mind would trick me into thinking I was bird or something, and wouldn't that be a sight to be seen?

My family is nothing but a collective ego trip writhing in a fluid of its own making.

Edit: Reads that post again... GOOD GOD I need to stop using the cosmic bobo to hold my coffee.
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on January 25, 2007, 19:11:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
These hard-up fisherman take on lucrative but dangerous fishing jobs because they are lucrative. Why are they lucrative? Because there's a demand for it. So, if you refuse fish on grounds of the industry harms humans, or whatever, then there is less demand, then less fishing, then less lucrative jobs. Get it? Come on, that's just sick that anyone would eat fish and think "oh well, the dummies asked for it." Tell that to their kids. Grr. /me throws a baby carrot in your general directions. [Mad]

It's just like any other job. They're paid for the fact that there is danger involved. Just like miners, police, firefighters, etc.

My family is from Newfoundland. Without fishing, I wouldn't be here today.

You're suggesting that I'm sick because I eat fish?

I'm not sure I'm the one in the need of a [shake head] at the moment.
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 25, 2007, 19:43:
 
I think the strongest argument against eating meat, for those of you who argue against eating meat, is to point out the energy costs of meat vs. veg. If plants use x amount of energy per square foot and we eat x amount of plant per square foot of total plants and herbivores pass on x percent of the total goodness that they obtained from eating the veg, then it just makes more sense per square foot to eat the veg. As for fishing, I believe it's a good thing when we don't overdo it. Trouble is, our population has gotten so large that do always equals overdo. Moderation is no longer an option for us. We overfish, we overhunt, we even overfarm. The ultimate solution isn't dietary fascism, but education. Educated women tend to have fewer children. That's fewer people. Eventually, we might get to the point where we're able to do without overdoing again. Unfortunately, all men are horndogs- with or without education. Myself included (poor sheep). [Eek!]
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on January 25, 2007, 20:06:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Hm that's interesting, it seems that some people don't even care about the human cost, and devastated families so long as they can chow down on over-fished fish! tsk tsk.

These hard-up fisherman take on lucrative but dangerous fishing jobs because they are lucrative. Why are they lucrative? Because there's a demand for it. So, if you refuse fish on grounds of the industry harms humans, or whatever, then there is less demand, then less fishing, then less lucrative jobs. Get it? Come on, that's just sick that anyone would eat fish and think "oh well, the dummies asked for it." Tell that to their kids. Grr. /me throws a baby carrot in your general directions. [Mad]

Right. And paying police officers to do their thing is just as morally corrupt.

You imply that these fishermen are incapable of thinking for themselves; that they do whatever we want them to do. That sentiment in and of itself smacks of a moral elitism that is, to say the least, disturbing.

There is no legal compulsion for these harvesters of fish to do what they do; there is only the promise of (significant) monetary reimbursement. As such, they are free to provide for those same children you claim to be sympathetic towards using a means that yields a significant amount of money and a moderate risk of death or mutiliation. Of course, they could always go work at McDonald's for minimum wage and fail to properly care for their offspring, and have to unload them on social services and by extension, the rest of us. Somehow I think this would be okay with you, but for libertarians such as myself, it almost makes me physically sick.

I would much rather see a father (or mother) providing for his family and making them well off for a couple years and then dying doing what he has an obligation to do, then live a life of mediocrity and malnourishment for his offspring.

You people mention vegetarianism/veganism for spiritual reasons; fair enough. Who am I to question another man's religion when it does not affect me directly? But consider this: Roman Catholics eat a lot of fish. Not necessarily because they are supposed to, but because it is the traditional meal when meat is banned. SO think on that for a while when you defame fish-eating individuals.
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on January 26, 2007, 07:36:
 
If only bears were vegans...

 -


[Big Grin]

Edit: More seriously, Nitro, and other vegans/vegetarians, a couple of questions:

Are you planning on doing the total conversion gradually or immediately?

Is is difficult to find tasty options to replace meats and dairy? Is it more expensive?

Anyone care to share how long it takes to get over the meat habit. (Absence of cravings).

I've been cutting down on meat for a while, using chicken or fish, but cutting down there as well. But I am intrigued by the idea of practicing vegan choices for a number of reasons.

Thanks.
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 26, 2007, 09:22:
 
Update on the diet: Going fabulously well, a pound and a half in the first week! Snaggy and I have also been playing Wii sports for an hour a day, it's so fun! I also have been going on walks too. This coming week I'm going to up the exercise. This week I experienced some fatigue in the evening, considering I've significantly reduced my calories, but firing up the Wii and doing the sports perks me up.

No headaches this week = miracle. I haven't experienced any digestive tract discomfort this week, also unusual. I should note that I've managed to avoid processed and restaurant food, I've consumed none or very little artificial ingredients. And, this week I bought all organic fresh vegetables and fruit. I think this makes a difference. The organic celery was very good, not too bitter!

Here's my very own Vegan recipe for your epicurian pleasures;
Creamy Roasted Acorn Squash Soup:
* Roast one whole acorn squash in a 400 degree oven, (place it on a cookie sheet) for about an hour. (tip: opportune time to bake potatoes at the same time.)
* 10 minutes prior to taking out the squash, heat up one cup of water with one veggie bouillion.
* Take out squash, cut in half, scoop out the seeds.
* scoop out the squash and toss into the soup base, simmer for a bit.
* Puree the soup (and squash), return it to the rinsed pot to warm up for a bit.
* add about a half cup of plain soymilk, to taste. Continue heating it.
* Serve! It's delicious and satisfying, hope you like it! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 26, 2007, 09:59:
 
That sounds yummy!

Organic veggies DO taste really nice, especially when it's the right season and they didn't get shipped in from somewhere and they're all nice and fresh and okay, I need to stop before I start fantasizing about vegetables again.

GG: I went cold turkey with gratitude and joy (like I said earlier, my mom and I had been going rounds over my preferences for years). My sister and my brother also went cold turkey, but I'll have to ask if they experienced any cravings. Tofu gets a really bad rap - in the end, tofu tastes like whatever you cook it in, and if you don't like the texture of tofu in chunks, you can mash it up.

The big caution about soy is this: unprocessed soy contains a compound that inhibits your ability to digest protein. The process involved in making things like soy sauce, soy milk, tempeh, tofu, and seitan eliminates this inhibitor, but raw soy should be limited.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 26, 2007, 10:24:
 
gg... with all the fake meat options available now it is really easy to go veggie or cut down the meat. Be sure to try different brands, there's a lot of variance out there and, like anything, some brands really suck. I like Yves stuff generally, and the Tofurky people have introduced some good sliced tofurky things.

Tofu is awesome fried up, with soy sause or in stir frys or in speghetti. I much prefer the hard pressed kind, the kind with the consistancy of jello sucks, .... too hard to work with.

The only thing I am missing today while being a "collatoral damage" [Wink] part of Nitro's vegan diet is the milk in tea and coffee. I still haven't found a suitable sub for that, but will be trying rice milks and such.
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 26, 2007, 10:24:
 
Wow, learned a new thing about soy. I guess I'll have to remove that bean from my trinity now (chocolate, coffee and soy). That's okay, I like orchids and now I have an excuse to promote vanilla to supreme bean statis! All hail the holy bean trinity of coffee, chocolate, and vanilla! (I suppose that if I were a fem-geek I might have listed chocolate first.)

Edit: I can't believe I misspelled status... [shake head]
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 26, 2007, 10:25:
 
Snaggy, soy milk is adequate in coffee and SUPERIOR in chai tea. So says me.
 
Posted by Ugh, MightyClub (Member # 3112) on January 26, 2007, 10:44:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
Edit: I can't believe I misspelled status... [shake head]

Shhh! You're supposed to just edit it out and not say anything. Don't worry, I'll look the other way while you do it [Wink]
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on January 26, 2007, 14:55:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
/me eats a baby carrot , along with TFD's lettuce

Speaking of lettuce

quote:
From TFA:
Meat and Livestock Australia is spending $1 million to encourage us to eat lamb this Australia Day, but one animal liberationist is running a "bare bones" campaign against it.

Jodi Ruckley is travelling from Brisbane to Sydney wearing a bikini made of lettuce leaves.

She hopes it will make people think differently about intensive farming practices and embrace a vegetarian lifestyle.

"Lots of people love the costume and I think it's a really great way to draw attention to the serious issue about what's happening to animals in intensive farms in Australia," she said.

Xanthine, Nitrozac, ARJ, this is what's know in the biz as "a hint" [Wink]

[edit] I found this article which has a (fairly SFW) picture.
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 26, 2007, 15:00:
 
That would be the Australian branch of the Lettuce Ladies.

I cannot be held responsible for what you're going to see if you click the Broccoli Boys link there, by the way... some things are just not right...
 
Posted by Zwilnik (Member # 615) on January 26, 2007, 15:34:
 
Chocolate soy milk rocks [Smile] (when cold anyway, it's horrible if it warms up).

As I was an anti-vegitarian before I went veggie for health reasons (veg don't have the option to run away), a lot of my new diet is fake meat. It varies a lot though. There's a New Zealand brand called Fakin (fakin bacon etc.) that's really good, but it's quite expensive (as is most vegetarian specialist stuff) here.
The Linda McCartney brand is great as well and some of the Quorn stuff. Although the Quorn products are generally better when mixed with other stuff (quorn pieces, quorn swedish balls and Nando's peri-peri sauce + salad in a tortilia wrap is great).

I always found tofu to require a lot of work to make tasty, although smoked tofu cut into strips and marinated overnight in BBQ sauce makes a rather nice pizza topping.
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on January 26, 2007, 16:22:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Are you planning on doing the total conversion gradually or immediately?

Is it difficult to find tasty options to replace meats and dairy? Is it more expensive?

Anyone care to share how long it takes to get over the meat habit. (Absence of cravings).

Ok... here goes a serious, if disjointed, answer to these entirely reasonable questions....

1) Firstly, the disclaimer. There has been increasing recognition lately of the futility of some of the attempts by forum members to persuade other forum members that a particular political viewpoint is superior.
I note the amount of energy that is expended to no effect, and that is partly why I have not yet ventured my opinions on the omnivore/herbivore argument.
However, the main reason I have kept relatively schtum is that I do not believe you can ever convince a meat-eater to renounce the flesh by rational argument. Now, this is not to say that flesh-eaters are beyond rational thinking, perish the thought, but rather that the decision to forswear meat is one that comes from a deeper place than the intellect.

2) And so to question One. For me the change was gradual and instantaneous. For many years I was a happy and committed meat-eater and, although I could never condone the commercial slaughter system, I did believe that people should have some experience of killing and preparing their own meat. "Keep it real" and all that.
But year after year I felt myself becoming less comfortable with the idea of taking life to fill my belly. One day, I read an article in a newspaper about a record-breaking specimen fish, possibly a turbot. It was over six feet long and was reckoned to be at least thirty-five years old when it was caught. I wept. There was no need for that creature to die - it was not going to feed anyone who was starving, just fat, happy, first-worlders. I have not eaten animals since that day. I believe that turning veggie/vegan will hang on an "epiphany" of some description for most people - so proselytising is pointless.

3) Is it difficult to find tasty options, and is it expensive?
In this respect veggie/vegan is the same as a meaty diet - if you take an interest in what you eat and don't rely on processed microwave meals, good food is easy and cheap. TV dinners are an abomination, whether they are veggie or not.

4) Getting over the cravings...once you make that "life-choice" there are no cravings. Well, not for meat, anyway. But I still crave garlic, red wine, olive oil, single malt, salty rice etc etc.

Here endeth the sermon.
[Wink]
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on January 26, 2007, 16:28:
 
I believe in Curnonsky's dictum that "Good cooking is when things taste of what they are", so I cannot understand why veggies mess with fake meat. It's never going to be meat, so why bother? I like things like new potatoes simply boiled so you can almost taste the earth they have come from, or mussels cooked with just a few onions and a splash of wine, and again you can almost smell the sea when you eat them. I admit that when you have no meat a meal can lack a certain punch, so the vegetarian or vegan things I like generally are built around things with a strong flavour, like spinach or aubergines or mushrooms. This is one of my favourite vegetarian things that is simple and good

Tzatsiki

Take a cucumber, peel it (a swivel bladed potato peeler works best) and grate it coarsely into a sieve resting over a bowl. Sprinkle half a teaspoon of salt over the grated cucumber, and let osmosis work its magic to drain most of the water out of the cucumber over the next 30 min to an hour. Then take a clove of garlic and crush it with the blade of your kitchen knife over a pinch of salt and work it until you have a creamy raw garlic paste. Take a small bunch of fresh mint and strip the leaves from the stems and chop them finely. Place the cucumber, garlic paste, and chopped mint leaves in a bowl together with about 250 gms thick Greek yogurt and 2 tablespoons of good quality olive oil and mix together. Taste and adjust the seasoning. Bought tzatsiki has no garlic in it, so it is anaemic and boring, but since this contains raw garlic be careful, or it will blow your head off! It is important to use proper thick Greek yogurt and to let the water drain from the cucumber, or it will not have the proper thick creamy consistency, but otherwise this is about as simple and foolproof as a recipe can get. It is not only delicious as a dip, but good in other things, with baked potatoes for instance, or as a sauce for oily fish, or as a filling in an omlette. However you use it, it is delicious.
 
Posted by Mr. Dave (Member # 1977) on January 26, 2007, 18:42:
 
Nitro:

Looking back at my previous post, I realize I came off sounding a bit... umm... well, definitely not the way I intended; for that I apologize.

What I set out to say was this: that I believe any philosophical position, provided that it's carefully considered, that it harms neither you nor those around you, and that you don't try to impose it on others, is every bit as valid as any other no matter how silly some people may feel it to be. Simply making such a decision is an accomplishment many will never achieve. Congratulations; now hold to your principles and let no-one, even me (especially me) try to trip you up.

I did consider philosophical/spiritual vegetarianism some years ago; when I realized that virtually everything we eat used to be alive (water, salt, alum if you make pickles... can't think of anything else) I realized that such a philosophy just wouldn't work for me. (There was that, and Margaret Atwood's screaming carrots.) These are entirely my own sentiments, and should have no influence on anyone else's decision.

And now,

Garlic-Grilled Portobellos

While we're swapping recipes, try this: pull the stems off some good big portobello mushrooms, then brush the caps with a mixture of olive oil, lemon juice and crushed garlic. (I leave the proportions as an exercise for the reader.) Let them stand for 15 minutes or so, then toss them gills-up on a medium-hot grill. Let them cook for a couple minutes, then flip them and cook for a couple more, until they're tender. (Poke 'em in the centre with a sharp knife; you should see just a little juice start to pool.)

Serve them whole or sliced, alone or over hamburgers or soyburgers, or however you see fit. Or here's an idea: slice them, still warm, over fresh salad greens and drizzle with a little balsalmic vinaigrette!

(Damn; now I'm hungry again...)

--
From life, to death, to life, circle without end. These lives have ended that ours may be nourished and continue; for this we offer thanks and respect, and remember that one day this flesh, too, will become food.
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 27, 2007, 23:39:
 
Hey GG:
Yeah, answers for you here;

The Becoming Vegan Approach: When I went vegetarian, I did it gradually, First gave up pork, an easy target. Then beef, hamburgers was hard to give up, but at the time in Toronto there was this restaurant that served the most awesome veggie burgers ever, the restaurant was called Blue Berry Hill. Then, chicken which was hard because I was a poor student and wing night was very important to me. Seafood was next, that took a while too. So about half a year for that at least. Cravings lasted over a year, as my system adjusted to not getting all that salt and additives and nitrites and whatnot. To solve that I got into cooking and made a big effort to learn to make tasty vegetarian meals.

Then I drifted back to eating seafood because of the press it was getting for being heart healthy and it gave me more options when I went out.

Cut to a week ago, it was easy cutting the fish out, I didn't eat it very often anyway, then the dairy and eggs was an immediate cut out thing cause I'm really turned off and don't want anything to do with the fish, dairy and egg industry.

I do have cravings, but luckily there is a lot of vegan options, and I'm serious about cutting out white sugar which is in everything. White sugar is verboten because in the refining process they apparently use animal charcoal filters. And, since I'm concerned about weightloss, sugar has got to go. There just can't be an arguement for white sugar? So, one of my vises, of course was chocolate, but thanks to chocolate soymilk, I'm over it.

Best of luck let us know how it goes! (Love the recipes guys and gals!)
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 28, 2007, 20:03:
 
look... a very long article

... but it matches up with my opinions better than almost everything else I've ever read.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 28, 2007, 21:07:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
look... a very long article

... but it matches up with my opinions better than almost everything else I've ever read.

Ugh...the NYT magazine. Sometimes I think they write long spiels for that just for the sake of writing long spiels. I'll read it at some point, probably in dead tree format. There's no way in hell that I'm going to read a 10+ page story on a computer screen.
 
Posted by fs (Member # 1181) on January 29, 2007, 04:19:
 
I tried the vegan thing in college, of course given the general college lifestyle, my nutrition suffered even more than your average college students. (Only one flavor of Ramen!)

I'm happy being a lacto-ovo vegetarian, and living here (Sweden) I'm more confident that the animals aren't being mistreated to the extent they sometimes are in the US. (More strict legislation in the EU governing animal husbandry practices.)

One thing about being here, there is a lot less cheese in my diet. Animal-derived rennet is present in almost all of it.
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 29, 2007, 09:15:
 
quote:
fs:
(More strict legislation in the EU governing animal husbandry practices.)

I assure you: not all American farmers are bad husbands to their animals. I know a couple who are quite nice to their four-legged spouses.
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on January 29, 2007, 11:16:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
Now, this is not to say that flesh-eaters are beyond rational thinking, perish the thought, but rather that the decision to forswear meat is one that comes from a deeper place than the intellect.

Man, I thought we geeks valued our smarts. What deeper place should I be delving? Does it have to do with your deities or with Buddha? Does it have to do with the little part of me that wonders if plants can feel pain and we just haven't figured it out yet?

(One has to wonder if you wonder that, too...)

quote:
Getting over the cravings...once you make that "life-choice" there are no cravings. Well, not for meat, anyway.
...just for the vital nutrients that your body was getting from the meat.

So, explain to me that "deeper place" schtick again?
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 29, 2007, 11:21:
 
Demosthenes wrote:
Does it have to do with the little part of me that wonders if plants can feel pain and we just haven't figured it out yet?

Have you been flogging the ferns while nobody was looking?
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 29, 2007, 11:33:
 
I've been careful not to cast aspersions at vegetarians because I agree with the eco-energetics of the thing. However, I just have to ask: What's the deal with vegans claiming that eating honey is cruel to bees? Don't they understand that it's a symbiosis? When the hive has a bad year, they are fed by the apiarist to keep the hive viable. Domestic bees are generally happier and healthier than wild bees. How can we even claim that they're captive when the hive wouldn't produce honey if the bees weren't allowed to leave?

On the same vein, why do vegans think it's okay to drive cars? Don't they notice what can often be found along the side of the road? Don't they realize that the green blob on the windshield used to be alive until they so cruelly slammed into it?

How do vegans justify using paper? All that mercury leaches into rivers and lakes, poisoning innumerable fish and amphibians and leading to long, painful deaths by heavy metal toxicity.

I could go on, but my point is made: our society is structured such that, regardless of our convictions, we participate in the wholesale slaughter of cute, furry animals. (Yes, I DO consider bugs, especially honeybees, cute, furry animals.)
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on January 29, 2007, 11:45:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
Now, this is not to say that flesh-eaters are beyond rational thinking, perish the thought, but rather that the decision to forswear meat is one that comes from a deeper place than the intellect.

Man, I thought we geeks valued our smarts. What deeper place should I be delving?
Genes, maybe? [Big Grin]

(I suddenly remember that Futurama episode when they ended up deciding it was wrong to eat smart beings, but still ate a "stupid" dolphin... [evil] )

Now, more to the topic, I wouldn't mind paying more for ethically raised and killed animals. I can afford it. Wich raises a question, for those who stopped eating meat for ethical reasons: if an animal had been treated well from birth to death, would you eat its meat/eggs/milk?

Also, are you ready to forsake leather and wool? (One has to be consistent in one's set of belief, I guess.)

And finally, a question for all: knowing that about 50% of all produced food ends up never being eated (of course, the real percentage varies from a place to another), wouldn't you think it would be smarter to the planet to try and reduce your own wasting of food? (I know I am guilty of that, my fridge is half-full with food gone bad - I need to clean it up, then I'll make an effort to eat what's in it before buying more.) Are you ready to buy less-than-perfect fruits and vegetables (when it's really just cosmetic defaults, not half-rotten, of course)? Do you dutifully eat everything you buy before it turns bad (given it's eatable)?
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on January 29, 2007, 14:05:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:

quote:Originally posted by Grummash:
Now, this is not to say that flesh-eaters are beyond rational thinking, perish the thought, but rather that the decision to forswear meat is one that comes from a deeper place than the intellect.

Man, I thought we geeks valued our smarts. What deeper place should I be delving? Does it have to do with your deities or with Buddha? Does it have to do with the little part of me that wonders if plants can feel pain and we just haven't figured it out yet?

(One has to wonder if you wonder that, too...)


I realise I have committed that cardinal sin of debate...the crude generalisation... but this comment does really stem from a combination of my own personal experience and anecdotal evidence gathered from an admittedly small number of conversations.

For myself, I understood the economics/efficiency arguments in favour of vegetarian food production long before I stopped eating meat. I also spent some time exploring free-range, organic, welfare-centred types of meat production. This type of meat was fine for a while, although I had to reduce my consumption a little due to the higher price. However, I simply reached a point where I could no longer countenance unneccessary killing just to provide my food.

You could call this an emotional decision, or a spiritual one (depending how arsey you want to sound) but it is definitely a product of my beliefs.

Don't get me wrong, if I was stranded in the middle of nowhere and the choice was to either eat our furry friends or die, then reluctantly it would be the beasties on the barbie. However, living in the UK there really is no need to kill anything in order for me to have a good dinner.

Other people I have talked to have had a similar experience, and hence my generalisation. If there is anyone out there who decides to embrace vegetarianism for purely intellectual reasons... good on ya!

oh.. and Demo..(if I may call you that ?) the plants & pain thing is a bit of a worry! [ohwell]
 
Posted by Ashitaka (Member # 4924) on January 30, 2007, 04:11:
 
So I have been lurking in this thread since its inception and I finally have something to add. well a question for those here.

Do snails count on the forbidden foods list? A friend of mine brought in a cream snail soup for everyone at lunch today. It was delicious.

From the ethical standpoint, the snails are not really mistreated, nor do they have the brains feel mistreated. Nor does thier production harm the enviorment.

From the diet concerns, they are healthy to eat, low in fat and not really made of a meat but they are in the animal kingdom. So would y'all eat them? Theoretically that is.

p.s. I have teh recipe if anyone wants it but it takes two week to prepare teh snails properly unless you can find already prepared snails at your grocer.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on January 30, 2007, 07:22:
 
Ashitaka, the hardcore vegans won't even eat honey, so I think snails are out.
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on January 30, 2007, 09:14:
 
quote:
Xanthine:
Ashitaka, the hardcore vegans won't even eat honey, so I think snails are out.

Yeah, I still don't get that. We're NICE to bees. They are the most coddled domestic animal of them all. You can't even say we slaughter the older bees to keep production up.

I'm even kind of happy about the whole Africanized-bee thing because I'm sick of watching ignorant little snot-nozed brats squish beautiful Apis melifora because they're afraid they might get stung. With Africanized bees we can now weed out those kids' genes right away!
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 30, 2007, 10:40:
 
The snail question: Snails are not part of a vegan diet. Neither are oysters, clams, scallops, slugs, bugs.

My vegan rule of thumb:
#1. I don't eat anything that can move on its own. (ATCMOIO). I don't consider growing as moving.

#2. I don't eat anything that comes out of or grows on ATCMOIO, for example, dairy, eggs, and honey.

#3. I don't eat anything that exists due to products and processes that use (ATCMOIO), for example, white sugar.

#4. I avoid eating foods that aren't organic; meaning foods that have been grown using pesticides and herbacides. Mainly because these chemicals are harmful to the body.

#5. I avoid as much as possible; food additives, persavatives, and colors that are natural or unnatural. Again because of their harmful effects to the body.

#6. I avoid spending money in grocery stores, and would rather spend it in healthfood stores in order to support businesses with that provide good selection of vegan and organic foods.

#7. I more or less avoid eating in restaurants due to my anxiety about not knowing what has happened or gone into my meal, and to avoid cross contamination with dairy, eggs, meat or meat grease or juices, etc. There are no vegan restaurants in my area, only vegan society potlucks which I haven't checked out. I don't know if I want to, really, but I'd probably enjoy meeting other vegans.

So, basically what I do is buy organic fruits, vegeatables, grains, and legumes, and soymilk and soy products at the health food store, and make my meals at home. It's acutally quite simple, very healthy. Also I've noticed a couple of bonuses; my cooking skills have improved and I'm saving a significant amount of money! [thumbsup]

More vegan lifestyle changes I've made:
As I'm using up cosmetics, clothing, and cleaning products, I'm replacing them with vegan cosmetics, clothing and eco-friendly cleaning products.

Also due to my new values I've been adjusting my investments accordingly. I avoid investing in non-ethical sectors and invest in sectors that save human lives or are part of the solution or at least isn't hurting anything.

Think what you will of me and my values and actions, it's my right to do what I want for what ever reasons I have. And, if I have managed to influence others to do the same, then that's great! [Razz]
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on January 30, 2007, 11:28:
 
Before I forget, you may already know it, but just to be sure: brown sugar (well, the common brands, anyway) is actually white sugar with molasse.
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on January 30, 2007, 11:31:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Think what you will of me and my values and actions, it's my right to do what I want for what ever reasons I have. And, if I have managed to influence others to do the same, then that's great! [Razz]

You're absolutely right, it is. In the same vein, make sure you appreciate everyone else's choices to eat steak, foie gras, fish, lobster, or whatever else they may wish to legally consume.
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 30, 2007, 12:56:
 
Nitrozac wrote:
Think what you will of me and my values and actions, it's my right to do what I want for what ever reasons I have.

[Applause]
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 30, 2007, 13:11:
 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Think what you will of me and my values and actions, it's my right to do what I want for what ever reasons I have. And, if I have managed to influence others to do the same, then that's great! [Razz]

You're absolutely right, it is. In the same vein, make sure you appreciate everyone else's choices to eat steak, foie gras, fish, lobster, or whatever else they may wish to legally consume.
Let me second newf: I haven't been at all concerned about how you go about eating or anything of the sort. However, I have been troubled by your character attacks on others, intended or not (telling people they can't be 'enlightened' otherwise is rude).
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 30, 2007, 13:41:
 
dragonman: I didn't tell people they can't be 'enlightened'. Look back at all my posts and you'll see that, never did I use the word 'enlighted' and never did I suggest that I was competing with you guys for who is more enlighted. I think you got that impression from reading Demo's posts to my posts which were contstrewed, which is why I didn't counter-attack her attacks on me, personally, because I thought she was trolling me at that point. (Sorry Demos, but that's how I interepretted that.)

As for appreciating other's choice to eat meat, I don't have to do that. I don't think people are bad who eat meat, I do think their behaviour is sucks, and I have a right to think that if I want. I also have a right to draw boundaries of my meat, dairy and egg eating loved ones; if I don't want to join them in a meal where they're choosing to eat animals or their excretions, I don't have to! I don't have to sit there and say "oh, it's ok if you chow down on that BBQ carcass, it doesn't bother me", like I used to. Yeah, it bothers me now, and if they want to eat with me, they are just gonna have to deal with it, otherwise we can visit in a non-meal setting.

Side note: Newfiemidg: I do, however understand the heritage in Newfoundlanders fishing. From what I understand, newfies had hard lives, and struggled, but a culture sprang from it, and the newfie culture and society should be protected. I'm also under the impression that it was when the Canadian government sold out the fishstocks to foreign countries who basically plundered the waters of the oceans to point where it's overfished and not coming back, thereby displacing newfoundlanders and stealing their livlihood. I think that the Candadian government has a debt owing to newfoundlanders and an apology as well. IMHO.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 30, 2007, 14:18:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
dragonman: I didn't tell people they can't be 'enlightened'. Look back at all my posts and you'll see that, never did I use the word 'enlighted' and never did I suggest that I was competing with you guys for who is more enlighted. I think you got that impression from reading Demo's posts to my posts which were contstrewed, which is why I didn't counter-attack her attacks on me, personally, because I thought she was trolling me at that point. (Sorry Demos, but that's how I interepretted that.)
...

Actually, you said:
One other point of Vegan-ness; I beleive that one cannot be truly aware and in the present unless they are vegan in diet and lifestyle, hence Bhuddism. The vegan diet is the epitomy of eating mindfully. It does wonders spritually, emotionally, and physically.

/me waves hands in the air in a circle; Vegans are one with the mind, body, spirit and planet. [Razz]


I find it hard not to be insulted by that comment. Thankfully, I have a pretty thick skin most of the time, and just don't care. [Smile] (And no, I'm not going to take issue about the typos...)

Oh, and proselytizing Macs were mentioned in the fray somewhere - I put an Apple Store employee very much in his place today [but not at the Apple Store...he was lurking in my office]. I very much detest willful ignorance - saying that Apple is the best, without giving a fair look at the other side is just nonsense. Every argument was nonsense, and he finally found an excuse to leave when he knew he couldn't win. (I pointed out that I like Macs, but that they do in fact have their faults -- and that those faults can be *huge* at times.)
 
Posted by GameGod (Member # 620) on January 30, 2007, 15:18:
 
To go total Vegan is one of the hardest things to do in a world surrouded by chemicals, fast food burger joints, and not to mention the instinct of a human being to eat meat.

Nitrozac, I commend your endeavours. I really wish I had the personal strength to become vegan, as I would really feel better with myself. Problem is I am a growing boy in a workout program that demands protein and tons of calories.

However!! I look at you as a role model in this area, and I wish you total luck, you'll be totally cleansed as a person, totally.

Party on!
 
Posted by littlefish (Member # 966) on January 30, 2007, 15:50:
 
Nitro said:
quote:
#5. I avoid as much as possible; food additives, persavatives, and colors that are natural or unnatural. Again because of their harmful effects to the body.
You avoid colours? Because they harm the body?

And just what is a food additive? This type of thinking annoys me intensely. Salt / Sugar / Herbs are all added to food to help with flavour. They are "food additives". Although they are actually food.

Most natural colour chemicals are anti-oxidants, which many view as very healthy. Organic food is not any better for you than non-organic, and is probably less ethical as far as sustainable living goes. Organic farming is less productive for a given area of land.

gamegod said:
quote:
To go total Vegan is one of the hardest things to do in a world surrouded by chemicals
Yes! Get rid of all the chemicals, and then we will be pure! embrace the void!
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 30, 2007, 15:57:
 
dragon: I don't quite understand why you would be insulted by that Nitro quote? Can you elaborate?

I mean, you might not agree with it, but why is it insulting?
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on January 30, 2007, 16:17:
 
Are you adding fossil fuels to your list of prohibited products of consumption, Nitro? They're based on carbon lifeforms...and not just plant carbon materials.
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 30, 2007, 16:21:
 
Snaggy wrote:
dragon: I don't quite understand why you would be insulted by that Nitro quote? Can you elaborate?

I mean, you might not agree with it, but why is it insulting?


I'm sure he'll answer, but I think re-writing the quote a bit will make it more obvious:

"I believe that one cannot be truly aware and in the present unless they consume meat"

Doesn't it seem a bit insulting to be told that you cannot be aware and in the present because you choose to be a vegetarian/vegan? I'd feel a bit insulted.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 30, 2007, 17:04:
 
"Doesn't it seem a bit insulting to be told that you cannot be aware and in the present because you choose to be a vegetarian/vegan? I'd feel a bit insulted."

nope, I'd just disagree with it, it doesn't insult me. [ohwell]
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on January 30, 2007, 17:11:
 
Rhonwyyn, don't forget limestone!

/me cancels that load of gravel. [Razz]
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 30, 2007, 17:19:
 
Ok, I'll admit, that statement was a tad trollish. [Razz] What I meant was; for me. I used Budhism as evidence to support my point of view.

To explain further, I believe if you strive for mindful awareness, it would be difficult to choose to eat meat, dairy and eggs the way it's produced right now. Since recently I was eating fish, dairy and eggs, I think I was in denial, and when I saw that documentary I had to take a look at my choices. When I looked into dairy production and egg production, I couldn't shrug it off, and decided to stop contributing my money to that business. I just don't want anything to do with that.

It's sort of how I approached other behaviours I didn't like in myself. I try and look at myself, and see what I'm doing to cause my own stress, and try and change that. It's very hard to do, and takes a lot of courage to admit when you're wrong, and when you're hurting yourself and others. I found it was the same mental process when I decided to go vegan.

I have been making great efforts to live in a mindfully aware state for a few years now. I noticed as I was developing my vegan values I felt a sort of clarity. It's hard to explain without waving my hands around. I mean I feel like, now when I look at a beautiful dish of french toast topped with butter and whipped cream, I feel more 'aware' of what it is, and how it got there and what it'll do to my waistline if I eat. Taking off the rose glasses of seductive food presentation made feel more conscious and aware and in the present, a sort of denial being lifted.

I think that today, in our abundant society, we're vulnerable to magical thinking when it comes to food. Like "Happy Meals" at McDonald's, or high priced cuisine that uses fanciful presentations. It is kind of magical in a way, that we can go to a restaurant, order something and there it is, in minutes all ready for you. This just wasn't the case a hundred years ago or less.
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on January 30, 2007, 17:20:
 
I just want to know what the freakin' cat thinks of all of this.

[Roll Eyes]

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 30, 2007, 17:52:
 
GG: thank you! [Big Grin] You're so sweet! You just keep up the good work, and when you're ready to go vegan and want to learn some tasty recipes, just let me know! [Smile]

Rhyon: The fossil fuel issue. Yeah, you know that does pop into your mind when you're looking at making these kinds of changes. Since the burning of fossil fuels is bad for the planet, etc, I decided reduce my fossil fuel consumption and sell my investments in the fossil fuels sector.

Here are some of changes I've made:
- I will not take unneccessary trips, especially by airplane. At least reduce my air travel. This makes a huge difference.
- I reduced my driving, and I already drive 6,000 km less than the average Canadian.
- My landlord has switched our furnace from oil to heat pump.
- I've sold investments in the Canadian oil sands, and other energy companies.
- I've also sold my stocks in Tim Hortons, since they are buyers and sellers of non-vegan fast food. That was a hard one, because I loved my Tim Horton's. *sigh* oh well.

For the record, a vegan diet doesn't really have anything to do with environmentalism. You can be a consumer of fossil fuels and a vegan at the same time, as far as I know.
 
Posted by GameGod (Member # 620) on January 30, 2007, 18:25:
 
You'll save money too!
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 30, 2007, 19:22:
 
Nitrozac wrote:
Ok, I'll admit, that statement was a tad trollish. [Razz] What I meant was; for me.

No worries. We all behave badly from time to time. Some of us (me), more often than others. I wasn't insulted because of my own beliefs, which I am unlikely to really expound upon.

Now that that's out of the way, allow me to pose a few questions for you to consider.

What about the animals who are killed and displaced when a field is plowed to plant vegetables? Or the ones who die because the local food sources have been reduced to a level that can no longer sustain the existing population because a farm was put in?

By minimizing the area used for farming, less natural space is destroyed, fewer animals killed/displaced/etc. Do the problems caused by fertilizer justify and completely offset the environmental impact of the larger farms needed when fertilizer isn't used?

Organic foods (and I hate that term, by the way, because there are very few inorganic food sources) preclude any genetically modified crops. It's easy to say that tomatoes should be grown locally and not need GM modifications to extend shelf life, but how easy is it to say that people in, say, Ethiopia should starve rather than having drought resistant GM crops?

Sometimes I really wish life was simple *sigh*
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on January 30, 2007, 19:36:
 
You want a different way of being completely mindful of things?

Switch completely to open source software.

Keep in mind...that does not include Mac OS X. Go to Debian, Ubuntu, OpenBSD, or that silly one that FSF just started. Mind you, it's a lot easier these days, but it was a bit trickier a few years ago. BTW, when I say 'completely open source,' this also means "Don't use WINE to run proprietary, but free as in beer software." (i.e. No iTunes, Quicktime, or IE [for web dev. testing, of course])

If you want to say "that isn't the same thing by a long shot" - you may be right... one directly affects your health, the other affects your computer usage. Still, both are personal decisions that are largely on political and/or ethical matters. They both affect major industries, and theoretically both have the power to change the world we live in.
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on January 30, 2007, 20:21:
 
Do bear in mind that while big commercial companies tend to ignore their userbase flat out, open source folk have a horrible habit of saying "You want that implemented? Go do it yourself". The fact that you're not a competent programmer means nothing to them. If the software is non-modular or the changes need to go below the limits of the plugin API, the fact that it will stop you upgrading ever again (unless you diff your old copy's source against the new source, guess how the changes affect what you changed, patch the new source and recompile every time), means nothing to them either. That and the often long lead time even on getting a new version of anything at all, and the endless bugs, does their cause no favours.

I prefer shareware myself, since the developers are under obligation to do what people want else they'll lose customers. Many will still co-operate and help even when there are no upgrade fees, because they develop under the mentality that their users are not programmers and thus, as the developer, they're there to help. At least, European developers. And I find them a lot less arrogant and a lot less dismissive. Open source folk are too often out of touch with the Real World and the idea that non-programmers may ever want to either use, or even understand, anything they made.
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on January 30, 2007, 21:00:
 
but, what about killing digital gaming characters?! Isn't that killing?. Killing monsters, animals even people? In the game? The slaughter is going on now, by the millions, it's a travesty beyond anything humanity has ever witnessed! Yet no one is talking about it! There's a conspiracy! How many so-called Vegans log onto their favorite game and let the killing spree begin! It's horrible! Are you still reading this? omg! That is amazing, that you're still reading this. I can't believe it! [Wink]

What about microbes? OMG! I must've killed about 3 million of them today? How can I live with myself?! [Razz]

Steen: yeah I skimmed that article Demos linked to about the animals being killed at harvest. More land is used for grazing than crops. And a lot of grain crops that don't make the grade for human consumption goes to feed livestock. If it does bother people that fruit, vegetables, legumes, and grain for humans kills animals in the process, are they going to remove fruits, vegetables, legumes and grain from their diet? And how long with their health last? But, if that's what someone wants to do and feel good about it, well, then go for it. [Big Grin]

Dragonman: Are you saying that Linux is the Vegan diet of operating systems? Yeah, I can see that, somehow, for sure. Don't support The Man, support the Tux, yeah, cool. But just to let you know, I know the operating wars is the oldest troll in the book. [Beard of Peter Gabriel!]
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on January 30, 2007, 21:13:
 
Nitrozac wrote:
but, what about killing digital gaming characters?! Isn't that killing?. Killing monsters, animals even people? In the game? The slaughter is going on now, by the millions, it's a travesty beyond anything humanity has ever witnessed! Yet no one is talking about it! There's a conspiracy! How many so-called Vegans log onto their favorite game and let the killing spree begin! It's horrible! Are you still reading this? omg! That is amazing, that you're still reading this. I can't believe it! [Wink]

You're absolutely right! There's only one solution... eliminate all other games and play NetHack in pacifist mode!
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on January 31, 2007, 00:51:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
but, what about killing digital gaming characters?! Isn't that killing?.

True story: I used to work for a company that did a horse-racing computer game. One client wanted to pay us to do a steeple-chasing version, then got cold feet because their customers complained that steeple-chasing is cruel to (computer-generated) horses.
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on January 31, 2007, 11:32:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
because I thought she was trolling me at that point. (Sorry Demos, but that's how I interepretted that.)

That's okay, it just goes to show how much more enlightened you could be. [Razz]

quote:
Rhyon: The fossil fuel issue. Yeah, you know that does pop into your mind when you're looking at making these kinds of changes. Since the burning of fossil fuels is bad for the planet, etc, I decided reduce my fossil fuel consumption and sell my investments in the fossil fuels sector.
...or you could actually commit fully to your cause, no exceptions, and get a bicycle. I think I'm currently leaving less of an ecological footprint than you are, since I don't own or drive anything with an engine. (Hey, since you're doing this to lose weight, bicycling will help that, as well!)
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on January 31, 2007, 14:29:
 
TFD: The depiction of unpleasant activities and incidents is a complex subject. If the real game is cruel to horses, why depict it in a game? (The same goes for violence on TV and in films and vifeo games in general) I've never come to even any theories on the acceptable levels of what we can show in entertainment.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on February 01, 2007, 04:14:
 
quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
TFD: The depiction of unpleasant activities and incidents is a complex subject. If the real game is cruel to horses, why depict it in a game? (The same goes for violence on TV and in films and vifeo games in general) I've never come to even any theories on the acceptable levels of what we can show in entertainment.

It's certainly an interesting moral question. A vaguely related anecdote is what about completely computer generated (no human beings involved whatsoever) kiddie porn? My logic tells me that if it doesn't hurt real children, it's OK, same as virtual violence etc, but it still doesn't feel right to my intuition.
 
Posted by uilleann (Member # 1297) on February 01, 2007, 09:11:
 
It all depends on how well separated you keep fantasy from reality in your mind. You must consider what it does to you if you thrive on it in fantasy. The male sex drive is dangerously, fatally powerful and by letting men prey on fantasy underage girls, you're reinforcing ideas in their minds that they really should be blocking out. (Also ask yourself how the game should be created: a lot of realistic games show indications that people have studied things that they really should not have been studying except for clinical, forensic and scientific reasons).

I don't know that I could ever argue that paedophilia is safe when confined to fantasy, and I am not that sure about violence either. The latter, I feel I am pretty safe with in games: I can do pretty horrible things to game characters without feeling too much remorse or empathy and then care nothing for it later, but I'm not that tall, pretty weak and would lose any and every fight. There is no incentive or calling for me to be violent. Even if I acquired a firearm that would give me more potency and started re-enacting Grand Theft Auto in the streets of England, I'd just end up in jail, so that would be very stupid. But a man who already is tough and strong, who'd win all the fights, doesn't need encouraging ... He'd be better off with games full of daisies and birds ;)
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on February 01, 2007, 13:54:
 
Demos: good idea about the bike! For me, I live in a rural community, and it would be insanely impractical to not have a vehicle. I'm going to be conserving the amount I drive. I think I am going to get a bike this summer and try biking on the nearby islands for recreation. I used to really enjoy biking, and haven't done any since we moved out west.

I was thinking the other day, if one wanted to take a trip on the continent it would be cool to walk there, you know, if you had all summer or something. Would that ever get you in shape! It would be a very interesting way to see the country too.

My uncle's brother (sounds like an urban legend doesn't it?), seriously, this guy is 71 years old and he biked across Canada just for the heck of it. He wasn't fund raising or anything. Cool eh? I was very impressed. [thumbsup]

I also saw a show where a couple of young women rode horseback from Alberta to Mexico and back, that looked really cool.
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on February 01, 2007, 14:49:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
My uncle's brother (sounds like an urban legend doesn't it?), seriously, this guy is 71 years old and he biked across Canada just for the heck of it.

Wouldn't your Uncle's brother also be your Uncle? [Confused]
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on February 01, 2007, 15:01:
 
Nitro: How many bugs would you inhale and kill while driving that bike?
What if there's a bunny on the road, and you scare it? And it can't have sex that night? That could mess up the future.

Bikes are horrible things, that why you should get a Hummer.
 
Posted by Steen (Member # 170) on February 01, 2007, 15:14:
 
Nitrozac wrote:
My uncle's brother (sounds like an urban legend doesn't it?), seriously, this guy is 71 years old and he biked across Canada just for the heck of it. He wasn't fund raising or anything. Cool eh? I was very impressed. [thumbsup]

Snaggy wrote:
How many bugs would you inhale and kill while driving that bike?
What if there's a bunny on the road, and you scare it?


That reminds me of something from this past year...

The Ditty Bops did a cross country bike tour and documented it
(be warned, the page is -huge- because of all the videos and takes quite a while to load on a decent connection. I wouldn't try it on a modem)

Apologies in advance for what really is a sort of spam-like post, but I like their music even if almost everyone else I've run into doesn't.
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on February 01, 2007, 15:31:
 
GMX; he's my uncle by marriage, he married my aunt who's my mom's sister. [crazy]
 
Posted by maximile (Member # 3446) on February 01, 2007, 15:35:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
What if there's a bunny on the road, and you scare it? And it can't have sex that night? That could mess up the future.

Oh no! Bunnies love sex!
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on February 01, 2007, 16:58:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
Wouldn't your Uncle's brother also be your Uncle? [Confused]

He could be your dad.

</captain-obvious>
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on February 01, 2007, 18:30:
 
Well, yeah, but then he would be known as "Dad". [Wink]
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on February 01, 2007, 19:06:
 
Mmmm...pork...

http://www.pleix.net/plaiditsu.html

[Wink]

FYI: That link may not be for the faint of heart. It's ultimately courtesy of Steen, who tipped me off to them via a much tamer link. (And their main page is here: http://pleix.net/films.html ) Today, my memory was jogged by a sampling of one of their tracks in a liveset I was listening to, and naturally, I had to share such a warped video with you fine folks. [Razz]
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on February 01, 2007, 19:14:
 
I find the statement that an individual is going vegan one that is done more for political purposes than for environmental or health reasons.

With very few exceptions the environmental footprint placed on this planet by an individual in the North America far exceeds that which is placed by people elsewhere.

Put diet aside and examine other aspects of your existance -- you'll see there are so many ways you are deadly to other sensient beings on this planet. Measure the size of your house and compare it to huts in the third world. Take a close look at the materials used to build your home -- and understand the impact every industry that creates thos materials has on this planet.

Pause and look at your colorful walls. Is that latex paint, lead paint, oil paint -- or the more environmentally friendly milk paint. Oh no -- MILK!

Henry David Thoreau suggested all we really need to live in is a small box. In spite of that need, or egos tell us to use more.

You live in the country? Does that provide for all your needs and comforts? Or do you need to impose on the planet the building of roads, and automobiles? Sorry ducks, sorry Bambi, make room for ME!

But that isn't all bad, because in the end it's either us or the Lions and Tigers and Bears.

I think a life of moderation in all aspects is warranted, rather a concentration in one area of our lives, which may -- I'm saying MAY here -- cause us to ignore our total impact on the planet and all others living here with us.

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by ScholasticSpastic (Member # 6919) on February 01, 2007, 20:40:
 
quote:
Colonel Panic:
I think a life of moderation in all aspects is warranted, rather a concentration in one area of our lives, which may -- I'm saying MAY here -- cause us to ignore our total impact on the planet and all others living here with us.

When six (soon ten) billion people do something, are they still doing it in moderation?
 
Posted by littlefish (Member # 966) on February 02, 2007, 01:14:
 
Nic video Dman. Reminds me of this one, which is also rather good: Remind me by royksopp
 
Posted by Nitrozac (Member # 111) on February 02, 2007, 11:42:
 
Hey! I've lost 2.5 pounds in total! [Big Grin] You know what's great about a healthy vegan diet? (yes, I'm implying that there are unhealthy vegan diets), it's the fact that there is absolutely no starving, at most I get peckish between meals. I find soymilk fruit smoothies to be very satisfying in the afternoon, usually when I'm looking for something sweet...

My current favorite smoothie:
Strawberry and Banana Pick-me-Up:

1 cup vanilla soymilk
1/2 cup frozen strawberries
1 organic banana
blend all ingredients until smoooooooth! Yummy! Side note: organic bananas have far more flavour and better flavour than the non-organic bananas. I'm going to look for frozen organic strawberries in the health food store tonight! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on February 02, 2007, 11:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
Nic video Dman. Reminds me of this one, which is also rather good: Remind me by royksopp

Ooh...nice find. [Smile]
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on February 02, 2007, 11:53:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Nitrozac:
Hey! I've lost 2.5 pounds in total! [Big Grin] You know what's great about a healthy vegan diet? (yes, I'm implying that there are unhealthy vegan diets), it's the fact that there is absolutely no starving, at most I get peckish between meals. I find soymilk fruit smoothies to be very satisfying in the afternoon, usually when I'm looking for something sweet...

My current favorite smoothie:
Strawberry and Banana Pick-me-Up:

1 cup vanilla soymilk
1/2 cup frozen strawberries
1 organic banana
blend all ingredients until smoooooooth! Yummy! Side note: organic bananas have far more flavour and better flavour than the non-organic bananas. I'm going to look for frozen organic strawberries in the health food store tonight! [Big Grin]

I, too, enjoy smoothies... though admittedly, not using soymilk. One thing I'd often do was add vanilla yogurt or icecream to the mix, to help with consistency in taste. I don't know what the analogues for those are in the vegan world, but you may wish to give it a shot.


Generally my recipe is as following:

- Orange Juice (prefferably, or cranberry, or lemonade)
- Berries (you can buy an assorted mix at any grocery store). Sometimes we'll even throw in huckleberries that we picked over the summer.
- vanilla yogurt, if available
- bananna (s)
- oranges
- anything else that looks tasty
- and optionally, when undergoing strenuous conditioning, protein. Not too much- not much is needed- but it certainly does help.
 


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