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Posted by HalfVast (Member # 3187) on November 15, 2005, 18:57:
 
Ok, printing press really.

The new 4 color Shinohara fresh off the truck.

 -

Slooowly rolling into the plant.

 -

The mezanine was to low for the forklift to fit under so the press
had to be moved into it's final position 3 inches at a time.

 -

Another day or so for assembly and install to finish. I have to
change a punch on one of our imagesetters so our printing plates
will drop in. Soon this will be the site of high volume full color
printing goodness.

Ok so otherwise its been a slow day.... [crazy]
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on November 15, 2005, 20:09:
 
Your company should come visit us.. we write online print quoting software. [Wink]
 
Posted by maximile (Member # 3446) on November 16, 2005, 04:27:
 
Wow... looks good. Is it one of those all-digital machines that eliminates all the intermediate steps between the computer and the press? I guess you've moved past the age of film and plates... [EDIT] Oops... just read TFP. So no film, but yes plates?

But could you do spot colour on it? Or will it be permanently loaded with CMYK?
 
Posted by alfrin (Member # 3836) on November 16, 2005, 06:40:
 
Well that sure isn't going to fit on my shelf, its a bit too long.
 
Posted by HalfVast (Member # 3187) on November 16, 2005, 10:48:
 
Max we've been doing direct to plate since 1990
but we still use films when we want metal plates
for long press runs. Most of the time the press
will be CYMK but there will be large stock runs where
we'll load with specific PMS colors. We do have
a pair of Heidelburg Quickmaster DI presses.
They're great since you just sent the file to them
and the plates are burned right in the press.
They'll stay for the everyday short run stuff (1000 sheets)
and the Shinohara will take on the larger jobs.
 
Posted by Serenak (Member # 2950) on November 16, 2005, 12:33:
 
Oooh I am so jealous

Though teh management are considering one for our works

a 4 colour B3 press that is... and a Shinohara or Ryobi are possible candidates.

It's not got past the considering stage yet... the new CTP system has already depleted the investment fund somewhat... (Highwater Cobra B3 drum system with photopolymer plates and a new processor to accomodate them... We could have stayed with LAPV and kept the processor we have; but our experiences with LAPV have not been the greatest and the potential cost savings in reduced chemisty on photopolymer appear to make the change worthwhile on that alone)
 
Posted by -ct- (Member # 209) on November 16, 2005, 17:16:
 
Shinohara - - - roflwtfbbq

no heidelberg no care


lol


no really, i'm sure it's a good press, i just never heard of that one

i've played with 36x50 8 color + tower coater heidelbergs back in teh day (long before i got into computers)
15,0000 sph - and dead stop in .2 seconds [Eek!]
sounds like a freekin train wreck! [Eek!]

then there's the 8 color mitsubishi presses - niiiiiiiice

couple-a other misc. presses, and one GIGANTIC 4foot x 6foot 4-color 45 year old miller press (back in mid 90's, i bet it's still running!)
maxxed out at about 2000 sph - IF it was small sheets, full size got *maybe* 800 sph
 
Posted by Titanium Warrior (Member # 1885) on November 17, 2005, 10:07:
 
Sweet... There's a press here in town that uses the quickmaster. Of course I drive them nuts. I'm one of the few old schoolers that still love analog and find all the things that are wrong with Digital. To this day no one has proved to me is solvable. Most of my vendors use some sort of Digital system that uses some sort of proofing method like AGFA, CREO or some sort of other digital proofing system. As far as I know, none of them actually use the press inks to provide these proofs so when I do a colour check, it's only about 99% accurate.

I know I'm a stickler, but my company uses one of the hardest colours to reproduce (purple) and if the proofer doesn't actually use true press inks than I don't get accurate results. For example, another vendor showed me a CMKY CREO proof, and the proof looked awesome but one of my yellows was coming up too rich and a shade to the red. I checked it under my loop and didn't notice anything odd. It wasn't until I pulled my pantone guide and a kodak colour guide and checked their CMYK output. I double checked to make sure their CMYK swatches were not simulations under my 40X loop which normally I reserve for 300 LPI stuff and found nothing unusual. But the colours were definitely different and I concluded that it explained by my colours were off. I decided not to trust the proof but still signed it off. My job came back and looked great.

Eitherway, I love the idea of going direct to plate, but only if I'm there at the press to see what comes off of it and them to adjust and correct it on the fly. However one of my vendors is in another city so it's sometimes very hard to do a press check.

Cool anyhow... have fun with that new toy.

Cheers
-TiW

quote:
Originally posted by HalfVast:
Max we've been doing direct to plate since 1990
but we still use films when we want metal plates
for long press runs. Most of the time the press
will be CYMK but there will be large stock runs where
we'll load with specific PMS colors. We do have
a pair of Heidelburg Quickmaster DI presses.
They're great since you just sent the file to them
and the plates are burned right in the press.
They'll stay for the everyday short run stuff (1000 sheets)
and the Shinohara will take on the larger jobs.


 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on November 17, 2005, 12:27:
 
How much does Dell charge for cartridges for that baby?
 
Posted by Serenak (Member # 2950) on November 17, 2005, 12:33:
 
A few years ago every printer I knew would join you in that evaluation -ct-

But these days you can get a Shinohara or Ryobi for a major discount over the price of a Heidelberg... (like maybe half the price). In the days when you knew a Heidelberg would run forever (as it still probably will) that was the biggest consideration and you knew it would retain a considerable resale value. These days though press technology is like computer technology - this year's wonder machine is obsolete junk a few years down the line... (Particularly in the B3 sheet fed market).

The resale value is no longer guaranteed like it was. Return on the capital input needs to be achieved in a much shorter period than previously. Sure enough the Heidelberg will still be running when the others are scrap... but in today's ever changing market that is no longer a guarantee of a good return...

And TiW... there is no proofer in the world that can substitute for a wet proof in real colour critical situations... And if you really need a dead match for a corporate colour why aren't you using a fifth working (as in process plus a spot) - CMYK and even hexachrome can never get the true purity of a spot ink.

Actually as a designer with a decent understanding of how print really works I really deplore the current trend to just assume four colour process is the best solution for every problem. (Like today when I got a job that was prepared as CMYK throughout when a single glance made it obvious to me that black and a spot brown would achieve the same effect much better, easier and for a lot less money for the client...)

Bloody designers who don't actually know squit about the processes they are working with p*ss me right off...
[Mad]
 
Posted by Titanium Warrior (Member # 1885) on November 17, 2005, 14:10:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Serenak:
And TiW... there is no proofer in the world that can substitute for a wet proof in real colour critical situations... And if you really need a dead match for a corporate colour why aren't you using a fifth working (as in process plus a spot) - CMYK and even hexachrome can never get the true purity of a spot ink.

Bloody designers who don't actually know squit about the processes they are working with p*ss me right off...
[Mad] [/QB]

oh I know 4+spot is one of the solutions we have done in the past but that's provided the vendors that are available to do that have that capability Hexachrome has been around for a while, but all the presses around here that have introduced that in the past have not found it worth their while. With little demand for it and wash-up expenses for it, most have abandoned it. The only two types of printing proofs that come close to matching a wet proof are pantone colour key overlays and Analog matchprint laminates. Both are usually certified correct and are the only types of proofs that show what comes off a plateburner is what is going to be printed. No digital proofer does that but they are inexpensive compared to those old techniques (which for the most part aren't really done by anyone anymore). AGFA and CREO's are only fancier versions of inkjet printers, so if I wanted to see the actual dot pattern I need to look directly on the plate. I just wish someone would make a proofer that honestly showed me dot for dot what I'll get off the press.

One of the latest issues with softproofs don't account for presses that automatically adjust for density coverage. This recent issue was on a web press (This being the 2nd largest press in Canada) where the press automatically adjusted the coverage and resulted in different colours on each page. An issue I brought up with the press and has since begun to rethink their process/feature of their press. This would have been solved with a hard proof from the plates or films. I would have been able to see density issues with the photos and would have adjusted my artwork and gladly paid to correct the plates rather than the press automatically adjusting it. The softproofs did not show anything wrong and I was misled.

Another thing that softproofs don't show clearly or easily is overprints or trapping. Most of that is automatic these days, but there is occasions that I want to see the separations for that.

As for your last remark, I know (as do my associates) my expertise and don't have to go into details. Keeping all this in perspective, the problems I encounter are so minor in all sense of the mater. My vendor's know me for being 'picky' but not intolerable to work with. I'm strict with the details and even if it's spot matched colour, I'll notice a slight chromatic change but most likely will be accepted by my client. Often it's a bad mix from the factory, or if the press decided to do their own mix may have read a pt. number incorrectly (even in some cases, I've found out the pressman decided to run it thin). I won't say I'm always right when I find problems, but I'm at least 80% of the time correct.

What pisses me off is designers that think they know everything about how to design great rockets to the moon but know squat on economics on getting there.

-TiW
 
Posted by Serenak (Member # 2950) on November 17, 2005, 18:13:
 
Without wanting to doubt you in the least TiW i have low end proofing solutions (and I mean Epson 1290 type low end) that can show trapping and overlays (simulated obviously). Colour accurate thay are not.. but you can get them to showyou trap aand overprint if that is what is required.

The best non wet proofs I ever used were the ones that used the films to make those laminated film proofs... but I guess those are what you mean... the "Match Print" type things (and other names that were used)...)

Since CTP there is basically no way to replicate that "last chance" proof...

As for the rest of it I never meant to imply any criticism.. I am sure that you are very capable in your position and know exactly how to achieve the best results. I just wanted to reinforce the facts... pure ink is pure ink... and no amount of CMYK or hexachrome is ever gonna match that...

Actually you sound like my sort of guy... I know what I want, I know how it can be done, and I would like to see a quality result.. and i don't wanna hear no BS as to why it can't be done
 
Posted by GermanPressSupply (Member # 4693) on November 29, 2005, 07:03:
 
Hey let me know if you need any replacment bulbs we have the best prices and even better products email me for a quote request.

[email protected]

www.lexusa.com

Thanks,
Rob
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on November 29, 2005, 07:04:
 
quote:
Originally posted by GermanPressSupply:
Hey let me know if you need any replacment bulbs we have the best prices and even better products email me for a quote request.

[email protected]

www.lexusa.com

Thanks,
Rob

Kindly walk into moving traffic. Thanks. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by GermanPressSupply (Member # 4693) on November 29, 2005, 11:41:
 
"Whats the way to my stoneage computer camp?" asked the drunken dwarf holding his midget desperatly in need for a drain? That way!!! I pointed as the drunken midget stumbled and fell of the cliff laughing with relish i though to myself "Now why would i have sent him home? So he can write pointless horrible outdated software ?? HA HA HA HA
 
Posted by HalfVast (Member # 3187) on November 29, 2005, 13:19:
 
Thanks for the link. I forwarded it to the purchasing manager with
a note to NEVER DO BUSINESS WITH THIS COMPANY.
 


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