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Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 21, 2005, 10:38:
 
When I was watching Katrina develop before landfall, it was no where near as large as Rita is. (Look here for satellite loop.)

Amazingly, the politicians are still acting more like politicians than leaders. (Without regard to party affiliations - They're all being stupid)
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on September 21, 2005, 12:29:
 
In the UK we get all the news about how & why Dubya screwed up, but I have not seen one report in the UK serious press which shows just how much ordinary Americans are doing to help each other.
Luckily, I am on this man's mailing list, so at least I do get some positive news.
Here in the UK, we rather like Michael. [Applause]
 
Posted by HalfVast (Member # 3187) on September 21, 2005, 15:39:
 
You ain't just whistlin' dixie GG...

 -
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 21, 2005, 15:52:
 
Remember all those people who were evacuated from New Orleans to Texas?

Well, they're on the move again. It just shows the truth of that old blues line... if it weren't for bad luck, I wouldn't have no luck at all.
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on September 21, 2005, 16:03:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
In the UK we get all the news about how & why Dubya screwed up, but I have not seen one report in the UK serious press which shows just how much ordinary Americans are doing to help each other.
Luckily, I am on this man's mailing list, so at least I do get some positive news.
Here in the UK, we rather like Michael. [Applause]

I used to rather like him, too, but I started tuning him out the last several years.
 
Posted by maia (Member # 3778) on September 21, 2005, 17:06:
 
Orpheus and I evacuated the island today with the dog, cat, and computers. We are hoping to have a home to go back to. The trip to my mom's house took about eight hours rather than the 3.5 it normally takes. Sadly, many of the people on the road with us had Louisiana license plates. Seems like people are taking this as seriously as is called for. The island is taking people out on buses, and will be going door to door to make sure everyone gets out safely. Please pray, meditate, hope, whatever you choose to do, that everyone stays safe from harm and we don't have another disaster like Katrina. Now all we can do is sit back and wait.
 
Posted by Matias (Member # 4216) on September 21, 2005, 17:21:
 
We will keep hope up for everyone over there as well as the many that have already been evacuated to Texas from LA. I read on Cnn that some of the LA natives are hoping the dome they are going to in Arkansas will not bring back bad memories.
 
Posted by Aditu (Member # 2340) on September 22, 2005, 18:25:
 
They are evacuating Lafayette, but my friend Sue runs an animal shelter and can't leave. She is on higher ground and has a lot of supplies. I am still really worried. Please keep her in your thoughts.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 22, 2005, 18:41:
 
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 22, 2005, 19:02:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Wow! I hope you aren't serious? They are fellow creatures that look to us for their well-being, and their lives are precious to them, as well as in the sight of their Creator.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 22, 2005, 19:10:
 
Exactly. Which is why I wondered why they didn't put them down. A simple needle stick is quicker and less painful than death by drowning or starvation.
 
Posted by ewomack (Member # 3225) on September 22, 2005, 19:56:
 
Whooooo... I'm not touching that one... [Eek!]

Does anyone know the probability of two Category 5 hurricanes in roughly the same area in the same season?

I can't believe it. Here we go again. [Confused] [weep]
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 22, 2005, 20:21:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ewomack:
Does anyone know the probability of two Category 5 hurricanes in roughly the same area in the same season?

With ocean temperatures in the Gulf of Mexico still around 30 C (90 F), this may be just the beginning... [Frown] [shake head]
 
Posted by God (Member # 2398) on September 22, 2005, 20:33:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

How "Christian" of you. [Roll Eyes] This is going down in your permanent record. [Embarrassed]
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on September 22, 2005, 20:48:
 
quote:
Originally posted by God:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

How "Christian" of you. [Roll Eyes] This is going down in your permanent record. [Embarrassed]
Nice trolling, God. How about all of those animal sacrifices in the Old Testament, eh? Or the scapegoat thing? Or where you told the Israelites to go and hamstring the horses of opposing armies? The list goes on.

/If I believed in a God, they wouldn't be into animal cruelty. Or cruelty of any kind, really.
//And under Christian theology, Christians don't have a permanent record.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 22, 2005, 20:52:
 
Or how 'bout the sacrificial Lamb of God. Now there's cruelty. But at the same time, the most perfect act of love ever.

EDIT: Then I guess you must be a vegetarian, god?
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on September 22, 2005, 21:08:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ewomack:
Whooooo... I'm not touching that one... [Eek!]

Does anyone know the probability of two Category 5 hurricanes in roughly the same area in the same season?

I can't believe it. Here we go again. [Confused] [weep]

What's the probability that God is really pissed with the folks who put the lazy W in office?

I think the Supreme Commander has grown weary of sending tornadoes to trailer parks, and decided to crank things up a few notches.

CP
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on September 22, 2005, 21:27:
 
What...the...fuck?!

(See...I usually use 'fsck' online. [Wink] )

You must be kidding me...

You respected the amazing folks at directNIC.com in NOLA who stayed there throughout hell...to keep some networking stuff running...but suggest that someone should abandon their post and kill animals, rather than keep them alive? Oh hell no! Fsck the machines...preserve life! (While I have unbounded respect for Interdictor and company, I think folks would have understood if they abandoned ship early on, and /something/ could have been made to work.) If I was in Interdictor's shoes, or Aditu's friend's shoes, would I do what they did? Maybe. The former, probably just because, as some know, I tend to step in when the shit hits the fan and usually keep things under control well. I also really hate giving up, so I tend to hang around when stuff needs to get done. The latter...well, that would require me to be in a different profession...and odds are that my conscience wouldn't let me leave a shelter full of living creatures die a miserable death (starvation - the elevation implies they wouldn't be flooded), or have their life brought to an untimely end. In both cases, I tip my hat to these brave men and women who are sticking to their guns. (OTOH, people who have no damnably good reason to stay around should get the hell out of there, ASAP!)
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 22, 2005, 21:38:
 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
Nice trolling, God. How about all of those animal sacrifices in the Old Testament, eh? Or the scapegoat thing? Or where you told the Israelites to go and hamstring the horses of opposing armies? The list goes on.

/If I believed in a God, they wouldn't be into animal cruelty. Or cruelty of any kind, really.
//And under Christian theology, Christians don't have a permanent record.

csk is chanelling TFD.
Welcome to the twilight zone...
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 22, 2005, 21:39:
 
I'm guessing you're talking to me, dman, so I'll direct my response to you.

My understanding of the directNIC people was that they weren't in any danger from the storm. They were stuck there 'cause cars weren't working, no gas, etc. My understanding of Aditu's friend is that she has the chance to flee from flooding waters but is instead choosing to tempt fate. There's a difference there, yes? I mean, seriously, if those guys in the tower had stood a chance of losing their lives, they would've been stupid to stay, no matter how important the technology they manned.* The same with Aditu's friend. If her life is at stake, dying with the animals is a poor choice. Which would you rather have: a)dead animals or b)dead animals and people? If the animals are going to die as a result of the storm, put them to sleep humanely, then get the heck out of there.

*And face it. If the storm was strong enough to kill the men, it would've for sure killed the equipment.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on September 22, 2005, 21:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
Nice trolling, God. How about all of those animal sacrifices in the Old Testament, eh? Or the scapegoat thing? Or where you told the Israelites to go and hamstring the horses of opposing armies? The list goes on.

/If I believed in a God, they wouldn't be into animal cruelty. Or cruelty of any kind, really.
//And under Christian theology, Christians don't have a permanent record.

csk is chanelling TFD.
Welcome to the twilight zone...

Now I've got that doo-dee-doo-doo thing going round in my head, thanks a lot! [Wink] Nah, just revelling in my newfound agnosticism. Or maybe the TFD part of the collective took over, dunno...
 
Posted by maia (Member # 3778) on September 22, 2005, 21:51:
 
EDIT: I removed my comment. This post made in hasty emotional response to something that was probably not meant to upset anyone, I hope. Please forgive my momentary lapse in patience and self-control. I am riding on my last nerve right now, which I hope you can understand.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on September 22, 2005, 21:59:
 
Uh, that's a bit of an extreme reaction there, maia. I'm pretty sure that's CP's usual black sort of humour, I doubt he was wanting to offend anyone.
 
Posted by maia (Member # 3778) on September 22, 2005, 22:02:
 
Just a bit touchy right now. We stand to lose our home and everything we own. I was hoping to come on here and find a bit of support, and find someone who seems to have no regard for our situation. Maybe I'm just not used to this kind of humor.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on September 22, 2005, 22:04:
 
quote:
Originally posted by maia:
Just a bit touchy right now. We stand to lose our home and everything we own. I was hoping to come on here and find a bit of support, and find someone who seems to have no regard for our situation. Maybe I'm just not used to this kind of humor.

Quite possibly. Colonel Panic, while not being around as much recently, has made some truly memorable posts in the past, and has been much missed in his absence.

But, I can understand where you're coming from too, maia. I hope that things are as good as they can be, and that there is little or no further damage from this hurricane.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on September 22, 2005, 22:05:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Welcome to the culture of life. This is a person who values something greater than herself. It may seem crazy, but it's the kind of craziness that produces heroics. It's the kind of craziness that you depend on, every day, without even realizing it unless you've had to dial 911 or ask for some other sort of emergency help.

How we treat things under our power reflects on how we treat each other and what kind of person we are. I would do the same as Aditu's friend if I were in that position.

TFD, I think you and I were too overwhelming for poor csk in the collective.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 22, 2005, 22:12:
 
If you want some really funny humor, Liz Curtis Higgs is featured on today's Focus on the Family. She's absolutely hysterical!! Find out when it's broadcast on your local station here: http://www.family.org/fmedia/radiolog/index.cfm

Hmmm... they also have a link to listen directly to the broadcast from the homepage. Right now it shows Thursday's broadcast, but give it a few hours and they'll put up Liz's link.

Focus on the Family is a distinctly Christian organization, but those of you who aren't Christians will appreciate this broadcast too.

EDIT: Now that I've heard almost all of the broadcast, this is definitely one I'm downloading and keeping. My co-workers must think I'm crazy for the laughs coming out of my cubicle (if they didn't think I was crazy before this! [Razz] ).
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on September 22, 2005, 22:16:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
TFD, I think you and I were too overwhelming for poor csk in the collective.

We're all individuals!

I'm not!

Shut up!
</Monty Python>
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 22, 2005, 23:07:
 
quote:
Originally posted by maia:
Just a bit touchy right now. We stand to lose our home and everything we own. I was hoping to come on here and find a bit of support, and find someone who seems to have no regard for our situation. Maybe I'm just not used to this kind of humor.

maia

I am glad to learn you made it safely out with your animals and computer gear. That the prospect of losing your house and other possessions is causing you stress is understandable. I do not envy your situation, and I offer no humor in your direction since it seems a really bad time for that.

We lost a good deal of our supplies in a flood when we were living in the Missouri Ozarks. (Gully washer is what the locals called it. It was a flash flood.) It was disheartening to walk miles downstream picking remnants of things from the trees and banks of the river. But we were fortunate that no people or animals were lost or injured and we were able to recoup and rebuild in a very short time. This last is offered as an encouragement. For even if your material losses are great where there is life, there is hope.

Let us know how you fare, and I pray you fare well.

gg
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on September 22, 2005, 23:41:
 
maia, I hope things work out for you, Orpheus, and the pets. Will be thinking of you guys over the next few days. [Frown]
 
Posted by toobe (Member # 3783) on September 22, 2005, 23:44:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Ummm... not wanting to start an out and out flame war here, but by that logic do you then think that all animals - wild and domesticated - in parts that may or may not be hit by the hurricane should be put down, just in case they might drown? And that any families that are on the outlying, might be hit areas, (if for whatever reason they can't take them) should put down their pets just in case they might end up drowning?

Life is life, human or otherwise. I think Aditu's friend is doing something very honourable and very dedicated: taking her life into her own hands in order to try and save some others. Takes a brave person.

/rant. Thanks for putting up with it.
 
Posted by God (Member # 2398) on September 23, 2005, 00:55:
 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
Nice trolling, God. How about all of those animal sacrifices in the Old Testament, eh? Or the scapegoat thing? Or where you told the Israelites to go and hamstring the horses of opposing armies? The list goes on.

/If I believed in a God, they wouldn't be into animal cruelty. Or cruelty of any kind, really.
//And under Christian theology, Christians don't have a permanent record.

Um...that book wasn't written by me or "inspired" by me. I can tell you right now, most of that stuff never even happened. I can have permanent records if I want. I'm not a Christian or any other organized religion.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on September 23, 2005, 03:07:
 
It is always reassuring when God makes one of his infrequent appearances here. I am relieved that we are still under his all seeing eye.

Rhonnie - it is hard to explain the emotional bond some of us have with animals in our care if you have no personal experience of it, but I understand perfectly why someone would do that. I think that the painter Rembrandt once said that in the event of a fire occurring in his house he would rather save his cat than his paintings, though of course that is more a reflection on the comparative value of art and life.
 
Posted by ChildeRoland (Member # 3880) on September 23, 2005, 07:08:
 
quote:
If the animals are going to die as a result of the storm, put them to sleep humanely, then get the heck out of there.

But, the fact is, you don't know if they're going to die because of the storms. Animals have been around without human intervention for a long time, and I'm sure that many, many animals have seen (and survived) hurricanes without human-built shelters. So, why not just let them fend for themselves? They'll either die or they won't, if you kill them then they're guaranteed to die. I've seen your arguement, but I think it is immoral to kill anything unless you have a VALID reason to.
 
Posted by Aditu (Member # 2340) on September 23, 2005, 12:10:
 
I should have probably explained. She runs a shelter. She has 60 animals right now that she is looking to place. She couldn't move that many animals. And to be honest, she couldn't afford to put them down even if she wanted to. She sells on ebay. She sells tuppeware. She does all sorts of things to bring these poor things back to health, so they can be adopted. It never adds up to enough. Hence she doesn't have the transport to move them. And the kind of person who would run a shelter, wouldn't just leave them.

Maia, I hope that when you get back things will be okay. I will be thinking good thoughts. Glad you are away.
 
Posted by The White Tree (Member # 4040) on September 23, 2005, 12:28:
 
Wow. What a dedicated woman. I love animals (I was a nature conselor at my local boy scout camp) and I love my cats too. One of them I actually got while at camp because some .... person left a whole litter of em by the side of the road. I don't mean to get all sappy, but I understand where this woman is coming from. She has put a lot of heart and soul into saving those animals.

Oh, and btw, Rita is weakening more and more as she approaches landfall.
 
Posted by Serenak (Member # 2950) on September 23, 2005, 12:42:
 
Praise your deity of choice for that, but it isn't over it's over and gone - so let's all keep the goodwill stoked and hope that those in its path are spared a repeat of Katrina's ferocity...
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on September 23, 2005, 17:14:
 
I swear Americans must have a love affair with Russian Roulette:   [shake head]
    Building homes made out of "two-by-fours" on sandy beaches where tropical cyclones are part of nature.

As I've said before, the people on Okinawa build everything out of concrete because every year they get hit by at least one typhoon. LA may not get major earthquakes every year, but homes are built to withstand them.

Which makes more sense?
(a) Build a $50,000 house every 10 years because of the one hurricane that makes a direct hit every decade.
(b) Build a $55,000 house which lasts 40 years, but needs $10,000 of repairs when a major hurricane hits once each decade.

The Math:
* $50K House: $50K + ($50K/10yrs) x 40yrs = $250,000
* $55K House: $55K + ($10K/10yrs) x 40yrs = $95,000

By the way, if you live in the $55,000 house you don't (usually) have to evacuate, you won't be homeless, and you won't lose prized possessions like old photographs.

Notes:
* The $55K assumes the cost of construction to a higher building code adds 10%: $50K + $5K for stronger materials and better design.
* US tax law indicates that a residential property (like your home) should last 27.5 years based on allowed depreciation. However, it should be noted that homes may last 50 years or more, as seen in historical districts.
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on September 23, 2005, 20:48:
 
I'd like to see you build a house for $50k these days. [Roll Eyes] Unless you're talking about a two room shack.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 23, 2005, 20:53:
 
I'm thinking if you build it yourself you'd be able to keep the costs lower than hiring a contractor to do it. A family at my church is building a styrofoam house. Their anticipated costs are less than $50k so far. Of course that's not typical construction material.

Buying a house in Lancaster City'll run ya somewhere between $50k-$90k. In the suburbs, you'll pay double for the same amount of square footage.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on September 23, 2005, 21:24:
 
$50-90k to buy a house?! /me collapses....
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 23, 2005, 21:45:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
$50-90k to buy a house?! /me collapses....

Uh...dman...They're made of papier mache.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on September 23, 2005, 22:10:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
$50-90k to buy a house?! /me collapses....

Uh...dman...They're made of papier mache.
I'm not talking about *that* house...she inferred that was a common price for houses in general around there.
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 23, 2005, 23:00:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
$50-90k to buy a house?! /me collapses....

Uh...dman...They're made of papier mache.
I'm not talking about *that* house...she inferred that was a common price for houses in general around there.
I know. It was those to which I was referring. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 23, 2005, 23:37:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
A family at my church is building a styrofoam house.

Let's hope we never get to find out how that stands up to a hurricane !
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 23, 2005, 23:52:
 
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure of the physics behind the project. I think it'll have the usual wood framing, but the rest of everything will be styrofoam. It'll be extremely easy to heat and cool.

Personally, I'd like a straw-insulated house with adobe walls.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 23, 2005, 23:54:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
$50-90k to buy a house?! /me collapses....

Uh...dman...They're made of papier mache.
I'm not talking about *that* house...she inferred that was a common price for houses in general around there.
I know. It was those to which I was referring. [Big Grin]
Hah. You wish, gg! The houses in the city are older and better built than the houses in the suburbs, but because they're in the city the asking price is so much lower. Friends of mine bought a five-bedroom house for under $100k. That amount of money won't even get you a rancher less than two miles away.
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on September 24, 2005, 10:25:
 
quote:
The Math:
* $50K House: $50K + ($50K/10yrs) x 40yrs = $250,000
* $55K House: $55K + ($10K/10yrs) x 40yrs = $95,000

If it makes you feel better, add a zero to the numbers.   [shake head]

The Math:
* $500K House: $500K + ($500K/10yrs) x 40yrs = $2,500,000
* $550K House: $550K + ($100K/10yrs) x 40yrs =   $950,000

BTW: Land is a separate cost. The price of land does not increase by 10% for trying to make it hurricane resistant. The exception is if your "land" is sand on a beach; in which case, no amount of money that you spend will change the fact that it will wash away.
 
Posted by Rednivek (Member # 1148) on September 24, 2005, 13:15:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Welcome to the culture of life. This is a person who values something greater than herself. It may seem crazy, but it's the kind of craziness that produces heroics. It's the kind of craziness that you depend on, every day, without even realizing it unless you've had to dial 911 or ask for some other sort of emergency help.

How we treat things under our power reflects on how we treat each other and what kind of person we are. I would do the same as Aditu's friend if I were in that position.


Brava, Xan!
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on September 24, 2005, 14:25:
 
Holy $hit I de-lurked Red!

/me takes a bow

As far as housing prices go, where I live it's outrageous. Not as bad as CA, but ugly. I saw small, 4-bedroom fixer-upper going for >$300K. The people who own houses around here are multi-millionaires. Everyone else either commutes in from another town, rents, owns a condo/apartment, or owns or rents a trailer. That said, a "cheap" condo is still more than $100K. "Trailer trash" in my area would be homeowners where you live Rhonnie. I saw a house that'd be worth $400K in Seattle go for a million here. It's ridiculous. The city council has actually designated certain areas as "affordable housing" and put a cap on how much a condo or townhouse can go for in those zones because people are leaving town and taking their money with them due to the housing problem.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on September 24, 2005, 16:36:
 
[Applause] Bravo Xan, for the quote and Mag Valour for the Red de-cloak [Applause]

( I was worried he'd never get to 666 posts. [Big Grin] )
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on September 24, 2005, 17:33:
 
Only if he doesn't re-lurk. You're not re-lurking, are you Red?
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 25, 2005, 08:04:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Rhon,
Let me first apologize for bringing this up again. I tried to leave it alone, but you know how that whole conscience thing goes...

I understand that the practice of animal husbandry associated with agriculture can bring those involved to a very profound understanding and appreciation for the necessary mortality and morbidity of those creatures destined to provide food for humankind. (I have worked in agriculture and have many friends and acquaintances in the beef industry). But I also find that, if we are not careful, even those claiming the title Christian can become callous to the sanctity of life of all creatures.

I hope you won't mind then, when I remind you of William Blake's Poem "Auguries of Innocence" , one of so many of his that gently weave the truths of creation into a fabric that helps us understand them.

I hope this helps.

gg
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 25, 2005, 12:36:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Only if he doesn't re-lurk. You're not re-lurking, are you Red?

He can only re-lurk if he makes another semester of Podcasts!

/me listened to a semester's-worth at work last night.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 25, 2005, 13:03:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Why doesn't she just put the animals down and get herself to safety?

/me wonders why a person would risk his/her life for animals. For other people, for sure, but for animals? Craziness....

Rhon,
Let me first apologize for bringing this up again. I tried to leave it alone, but you know how that whole conscience thing goes...

I understand that the practice of animal husbandry associated with agriculture can bring those involved to a very profound understanding and appreciation for the necessary mortality and morbidity of those creatures destined to provide food for humankind. (I have worked in agriculture and have many friends and acquaintances in the beef industry). But I also find that, if we are not careful, even those claiming the title Christian can become callous to the sanctity of life of all creatures.

I hope you won't mind then, when I remind you of William Blake's Poem "Auguries of Innocence" , one of so many of his that gently weave the truths of creation into a fabric that helps us understand them.

I hope this helps.

gg

Apology not needed, gg, but I appreciate it nonetheless. [Smile]

I'm glad you understand the "necessary mortality and morbidity" of animals. I love animals (used to be on track to become a large-animal vet before I realized I had no chance of financing an education at UPenn) and hate to see any of them suffer. Because of that, and because of my belief that animals do not have souls, I find it preferrable to put down an animal in lieu of suffering. Put it out of its misery and all that. Now, you can understand when that animal is part of someone's livelihood how hard a decision that can be. And I understand how hard it is to put down a pet because of the emotional ties. But really, isn't it more charitable to end the suffering of an animal than to keep it alive in its misery?

For example, I was totally heartbroken when we had to put down Joseph, Emily's bull calf, but he was so ill that it was best for all involved. Joseph was just miserable (and I was miserable to lose him), but putting him down was better than letting him suffer. He had the best of care while he was with us; if we had sold him while he was sick, he would've died on the way to the stockyards.

As a Christian, that was the best decision we could've made for Joseph. I come from a long line of farmers and a large community of farmers, particularly those of Mennonite and Amish denominations. I've been actively involved in FFA (attended four national conventions, filled many leadership roles in my chapter at the Mennonite high school from which I graduated and in my county) and won a variety of scholarships from agricultural groups for the pursuit of a degree in agricultural education. I can say with confidence that the attitude I have regarding the care of animals (and by "care" I mean compassion and concern for well-being) is one learned from watching better Christians than I. (And by the term "better" I mean walks with God much closer than mine.)

If you'd like some scriptures to back up this view, I'll direct you to the first four chapters of Genesis, particularly the point where God gives the care of animals (and the earth in general) over to Adam with the command to care for it. I'll also point you to the laws of the Jews where care for one's livestock was a command, not an option. Jesus also referenced those laws in the New Testament where He used a man's breaking of the no-work-on-Sabbath law to get his ox out of a ditch as an example of things we can/should do when necessary, no matter the consequences. (Eh, look it up. The Bible explains it much better than I can.)

I've probably stirred up a whole bunch of unrest among all of y'all again, so please accept my apologies. However, I'm not writing this to be confrontational, but rather to be educational about my views and how they are valid and, dare I say, acceptable as a Christian.
 
Posted by Grummash (Member # 4289) on September 25, 2005, 13:46:
 
If I may pitch in with my $0.02??
This issue is obviously one of some sensitivity, and I am not sure if my contribution will move things forward, but would I be correct in stating the following points:
1) It is agreed that compassionate and/or religious people have a duty of care towards any animals they have responsibility for...
2) It is accepted that ending the life of an animal whose suffering cannot be relieved is morally correct....

If I am right, then perhaps this discussion resolves into the question "Is ending the life of an animal which may be about to endure suffering, morally equivalent to ending the life of an animal which is actually suffering?"

I suspect that the two are not the same, but I am not sure that I can develop the philosophical case strongly enough to convince.... any thoughts???
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on September 25, 2005, 15:04:
 
No, they aren't the same. The problem with maybe's is they're just that: may be's. They're very different from will be's in that will be's actually happen, whereas maybe's may or may not. So you can't make a solid, final decision of any kind on a maybe, nor is it advisable to take any sort of irrevocable decision, such as killing an animal, over a maybe.
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 25, 2005, 16:14:
 
Yes. Rhonwynn, yes. All that you mention is understood. Xanth and Grummy, I agree entirely.

I re-opened the topic due to an abiding concern that taking the life of an animal not be done carelessly or without due consideration.

Rhonwynn, I acknowledge the Biblical mandates regarding man and his relationship to the animals, including the early chapters of Genesis and all the ongoing commands and instructions for their proper care which continue into and throughout the New Testament, as well. There is so much more to it than the simple proposition that we have the 'right' or privelege to "kill and eat", with all the cautions being provided for their ethical treatment. (Including euthanising to limit needless suffering.)

The wording of your original post on the topic was such that it seemed you might have considered the animals to be a bother, so getting them out of the way by putting them down was no big deal. (Italics added for emphasis).

If that was not your intent, then I guess I needn't say more on the subject.

But did you read or re-read Blake's poem? Aren't the images wonderful and thought-provoking?
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 25, 2005, 19:07:
 
While we're quoting poetry, here's one of my favourites
quote:
Wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty
Wi bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an' chase thee,
Wi' murdering pattle.

I'm truly sorry man's dominion
Has broken Nature's social union,
An' justifies that ill opinion
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth born companion
An' fellow mortal!


 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 26, 2005, 00:30:
 
Hi gg dear. I see now what you meant when you asked your original (?) question. In an attempt to be succinct and decisive way back at the beginning, the tone of my post sounded heartless. For that I apologize. Putting down animals just for the heck of it is not my thing. (Same goes for hunting. If you're going to kill an animal, follow the Native American practice of utilizing as much of it as possible with as little waste as possible.) I love animals, so seeing the carnage of the South with all the dead and starving/diseased pets is just horrible. The animals were/are suffering; so putting them out of their misery would be a good thing in that situation, right? (Just don't go down the street bludgeoning every critter you meet! [Mad] )
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 26, 2005, 09:40:
 
Thanks for clearing that up, Rhon. I feel much better now, really. [Wink]

Druid, just who is this Robert Burns fellow anyway?
He reads like a drunken Scotsman or some such... [Big Grin]
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 26, 2005, 13:21:
 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Druid, just who is this Robert Burns fellow anyway?
He reads like a drunken Scotsman or some such... [Big Grin]

Is there any other kind?
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 26, 2005, 14:22:
 
Reminds me of the episode of Hollywood Squares that played on the Game Show Network the other night. Question posed to Queen Latifah was "What do Scotsmen wear under their kilts?" She replied that she'd like thongs, but answered boxers (boxers?!) instead. IIRC, the contestant disagreed and the host gave the correct answer to the incredulity and hilarity of all on the celebrity panel.

[Big Grin]

What's the song about the blue ribbon?
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 26, 2005, 14:33:
 
There's nothing worn under my kilt madam, it's all in pefect working order.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 26, 2005, 14:38:
 
Ahh, found it. Fond memories of Renn Faire at Mt. Hope; I think 'twas the Rakish Rogues what sang this:

The Scotsman's Kilt
By: Mike Cross

A Scotsman clad in kilt left the bar one evening fair
And one could tell by how he walked he'd drunk more than his share
He staggered on until he could no longer keep his feet
Then stumbled off into the grass to sleep beside the street.

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
He stumbled off into the grass to sleep beside the street.

Later on two young and lovely girls just happened by,
And one says to the other with a twinkle in her eye
You see yon sleeping Scotsman who is young and handsome built
I wonder if it's true what they don't wear beneath their kilt.

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
I wonder if it's true what they don't wear beneath their kilt.

They crept up to the sleeping Scotsman quiet as could be
Then lifted up his kilt about an inch so they could see
And there behold for them to view beneath his Scottish skirt
Was nothing but what God had graced him with upon his birth

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
There was nothing there but what God gave upon his birth

They marveled for a moment then one said we'd best be gone
But let's leave a present for our friend before we move along
They took a blue silk ribbon and they tied it in a bow
Around the bonnie spar that the Scot's lifted kilt did show

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
Around the bonnie spar that the Scot's lifted kilt did show

The Scotsman woke to nature's call and stumbled toward a tree
Behind a bush he lifts his kilt and gawks at what he sees
Then in a startled voice he says to what's before his eyes
He said, "Lad I don't know where you've been but I see you won first prize"

Ring ding diddle diddle i de o
Ring di diddle i o
He said, "Lad I don't know where you've been but I see you won first prize"
 
Posted by CrawGator (Member # 392) on September 26, 2005, 14:59:
 
Wow, Rita did more damage to where I live than Katrina. Quite a bit of the low ground is still under water, and more trees fell despite the wind being weaker. My family and friends are all still fine. Here's hoping that this was the last big one for this season.
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 26, 2005, 16:19:
 
Glad to hear from you again, 'Gator. I've been wondering how you fared through this latest storm.
We're sorry for your trouble, happy you are okay. [thumbsup]

maia, Orpheus, MTBBabe. You out there?
 
Posted by Serenak (Member # 2950) on September 26, 2005, 16:26:
 
Glad to hear you've come through relatively unscathed again CrawGator. Like gg I hope the others are OK too.

And here's hoping that is it (for this year at least...
 
Posted by Aditu (Member # 2340) on September 28, 2005, 06:30:
 
I just wanted to let you know my friend made it through okay! The animals are all fine. The property damage is fairly minor.

Sorry to have started a debate.
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 28, 2005, 10:03:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aditu:
I just wanted to let you know my friend made it through okay! The animals are all fine. The property damage is fairly minor.

Sorry to have started a debate.

The debate was worthwhile and important. I'm glad your friend and her/his friends are all fine, and that the facility isn't destroyed. Thanks for posting that update.

[thumbsup]
 
Posted by CommanderShroom (Member # 2097) on September 28, 2005, 10:33:
 
Now, perhaps I missed it...

But has anyone heard from maia or Orpheus?
 
Posted by garlicguy (Member # 3166) on September 28, 2005, 11:26:
 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
Now, perhaps I missed it...

But has anyone heard from maia or Orpheus?

They haven't been on the Forums. Neither has MTB Babe, who was attending a university not far from the Big Easy.
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on September 28, 2005, 14:12:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Aditu:
I just wanted to let you know my friend made it through okay! The animals are all fine. The property damage is fairly minor.

Sorry to have started a debate.

I'm glad to hear everyone's okay. [Smile]
 
Posted by maia (Member # 3778) on September 29, 2005, 11:50:
 
Orpheus and I are fine. He is heading back to the home front today. I have a speaking engagement tomorrow which requires me to stay in Austin a bit longer. We have been checking in with our apartment manager since the storm, and power only came back on yesterday. Since the storm took a more northerly path and came ashore much weaker than expected, the island where we live was relatively unharmed. Poor Orpheus must deal on his own with cleaning up the mess we made in our hurry to evacuate last week including a jungle of plants in the kitchen that need to go back outside and a fridge full of smelly rotten food. Thanks for your thoughts and prayers everyone. Turns out that the evacuation process out of the coastal area was the biggest problem. My pregnant friend (due any time) and her husband were stuck in traffic for 20 hours in 100+ degree heat and didn't use the air conditioning for fear of running out of gas. Luckily, they made it out safely and they are now back home with the baby still in her belly. I also had friends who spent 12 hours on the road only to get 30 miles just to turn around and go back home. Hopefully this will be a lesson for the officials down here, and they can try to make things a little smoother next time. They at least need a way to get gas to people.
 


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