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Posted by bull3t (Member # 852) on June 22, 2005, 13:36:
 
I personally feel that the right wing reich in america should all go to hell and stop taking away our freedoms, the very thing they claim to be protecting. first its flag burning, then its peaceful protest, then its our right to choose... these guys don't know when to quit, do they.

oh, if you feel differently, read the constitution... we're given UNALIENABLE rights as citizens, the freedom of expression is one.

PS, if anyone here says that i am unpatriotic, they are a fool. i love my country, and thats why i fight to protect our constitutional rights.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on June 22, 2005, 14:45:
 
Feel? I have no feelings. I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on June 22, 2005, 15:48:
 
Has the flag-burning thing been a problem recently? I haven't heard anything about it. Perhaps if you could direct us to the source of your outrage over our inalienable rights being taken away. [Wink]
 
Posted by Erbo (Member # 199) on June 22, 2005, 21:09:
 
I'm on the "right wing" in many respects, but I have no real objections to flag-burning. Our country is more than just a piece of colored cloth; if someone wants to burn the flag and thinks they're somehow damaging the country thereby, I say, let 'em make fools of themselves. We'll have the last laugh. And at least our enemies are going to the trouble of identifying themselves for us...

Besides, what's the accepted way to dispose of flags that are too worn to fly? Burning. They just had a flag-burning ceremony over at the cemetery near our home a couple of weeks ago; from the news reports, it was a very dignified affair.
 
Posted by Erbo (Member # 199) on June 22, 2005, 23:25:
 
I quote Charles Johnson, of the eminent conservative blog Little Green Footballs:
quote:
We all benefit when people who publicly burn the US flag reveal themselves and their agendae. In the age of the internet, this is more true than ever.

I don’t want to try to stop them, and force them underground. The key fact about these types: they’re schtoopid. They can’t help it.

Don’t get in their way.

More free speech, not less. Always the best policy, for so many reasons.

I can get behind this.
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on June 22, 2005, 23:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

If he was a halfway decent troll, he would lead with an issue that wasn't essentially dead a decade ago (if it can be considered to have had any real life to begin with). [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by GameMaster (Member # 1173) on June 23, 2005, 04:39:
 
<Tounge in cheek>
Yes, it should be illegal... Think of the enviromental impact of the combustion which is caused in the burning of the flag. Think of all the violence on TV that children have to suffer through when the news airs the riots that happen every time a flag is burned. <oblig. Simplson's quote>Think of the Children! Everybody, please, think of the children!</Simpson's></Tounge>

Honestly, this is a clear case of freedom of speech. I may not agree with what flag-burners have to say, but I'll be darned if I have to requote this old cliche to defend their rights to do it.... Or something...
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on June 23, 2005, 04:57:
 
D-Man____________Apparently yesterday June 22, 2005 that bunch of clowns that we chose to represent us in Washington have voted a Anti Flag Burning Amendment. The next step is for passage in the US. Senate Then If my Civics classes from Forty years ago are still valid it must be approved by Thirty Eight states to become valid. Why are so many people afraid of some nut case. I too believe that it is a Freedom of speach issue and I have gone and crawled through the mud to defend our Constitution
 
Posted by spungo (Member # 1089) on June 23, 2005, 05:36:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

If he was a halfway decent troll, he would lead with an issue that wasn't essentially dead a decade ago (if it can be considered to have had any real life to begin with). [Roll Eyes]
edit: nothing to see here, folks. (Oops!) [Wink]
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on June 23, 2005, 09:47:
 
The Congress is pushing this through because they have solved all the other problems before them and they don't have anything to do before the next taxpayer funded "factfinding" mission to study golf courses of tropical counties.
 
Posted by Erbo (Member # 199) on June 23, 2005, 11:27:
 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Apparently yesterday June 22, 2005 that bunch of clowns that we chose to represent us in Washington have voted a Anti Flag Burning Amendment. The next step is for passage in the US. Senate Then If my Civics classes from Forty years ago are still valid it must be approved by Thirty Eight states to become valid.

The likelihood is it won't clear all those hurdles. It needs a 2/3 majority in the Senate, which is gonna be hard to come by given the current balance there. Then 38 of the 50 state legislatures have to ratify it, which I can't see happening. The amendment process is a fairly effective "bozo filter" to ensure that the Constitution doesn't get loaded down with a bunch of crap. The one exception is the 18th Amendment, which is also the only one that was repealed (by the 21st), making it the exception that proves the rule.

Please bear in mind that these are politicians, and they really care about one thing and one thing only: getting elected, then getting re-elected.
 
Posted by Alien Investor (Member # 242) on June 23, 2005, 16:22:
 
Pretty much with Erbo on this.

Here's a list:

Burning an American flag

Burning copies of textbooks that talk about evolution

Holding a parade wearing Nazi uniforms down the main street of a town where the half the people are Jewish

Burning a cross (your cross, on your land) while wearing a white sheet and a hood

I'm all for the right of people to practice the first three things. I haven't figured out the fourth one yet, but I'm leaning towards favoring the legalization of that, too.

It's easy to be pro-speech on things that I agree with. It's also easy to be pro-speech on disagreeable speech that has little power. Where does one draw the line? I'm really hostile to the "free speech for things that I agree with but not for things that really offend me" position, so I push the line really far out. But there's some awfully vile scum in this world.

My favorite free speech story: the Ku Klux Klan applied to the state of Missouri to join their adopt-a-highway program. The state turned them down, the KKK sued, the KKK won. A court ordered the state of Missouri to give the KKK a section of highway complete with the signs indicating the KKK's adoption of that highway.

The Missouri Department of Transportation allocated a strech of I-55 near St. Louis and posted the required signs. And the Missouri Legislature passed a bill to rename that stretch of I-55 ... the Rosa Parks Memorial Highway.

http://www.detnews.com/2000/nation/0005/24/a01-62252.htm
 
Posted by magefile (Member # 2918) on June 23, 2005, 20:48:
 
I agree with AI, except that the last example could (depending on the circumstances) fall under the category of "inciting violence/crime".

Asshole-ishness should not imply illegality.
 
Posted by alfrin (Member # 3836) on June 23, 2005, 22:24:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alien Investor:

My favorite free speech story: the Ku Klux Klan applied to the state of Missouri to join their adopt-a-highway program. The state turned them down, the KKK sued, the KKK won. A court ordered the state of Missouri to give the KKK a section of highway complete with the signs indicating the KKK's adoption of that highway.

Not trying to inspire another flame war, but I feel as if people these days are diluted by the media to the point where they don't even know why the KKK was originally formed for, was formed to try to bring back democracy to the South after the civil war, it was disbound in 1869 (someone check me).
Though nowadays they are the group you hear about in the news, but you can't even talk about the old KKK without getting looked at in horror.

Basically what i'm getting at it that the media has a knack of making anything look as bad as possible. People have rights, I may not support what they say or support, but then again they feel the same about the way I think. So no one should be the judge of what people do or say (within legal parameters).
 
Posted by bull3t (Member # 852) on June 24, 2005, 08:25:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Feel? I have no feelings. I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

for one, i am not a troll. secondly, this is not a dead issue, don't you people watch the damn news?
 
Posted by bull3t (Member # 852) on June 24, 2005, 08:28:
 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
Has the flag-burning thing been a problem recently? I haven't heard anything about it. Perhaps if you could direct us to the source of your outrage over our inalienable rights being taken away. [Wink]

i have a spelling problem some times [Smile]
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on June 24, 2005, 08:45:
 
quote:
Originally posted by bull3t:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Feel? I have no feelings. I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

for one, i am not a troll. secondly, this is not a dead issue, don't you people watch the damn news?
Look at your .sig. You are absoutely a troll - you have no other intention here than to remain "the most hated person here." You have openly been disgustingly rude to the proprietors of this site, exhibited vile behavior, and insulted just about everyone you have the opportunity to (that includes brazen threats of physical violence).

Therefore, please do not be surprised if you understand that I will never expect to see any meaningful content in your posts, and treat any that I see with extreme caution.
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on June 24, 2005, 08:57:
 
quote:
Originally posted by bull3t:
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
Has the flag-burning thing been a problem recently? I haven't heard anything about it. Perhaps if you could direct us to the source of your outrage over our inalienable rights being taken away. [Wink]

i have a spelling problem some times [Smile]
Spelling aside, that was a serious request. If you showed us a recent news article about someone being arrested or ridiculed for burning a flag this would be a more meaningful thread and less likely to be perceived as trolling. Right now it looks like you're pulling a subject out of thin air just to be controversial.
 
Posted by illuminatus (Member # 2187) on June 24, 2005, 10:01:
 
I once respected the American flag and all other symbols of the U.S. Furthermore, I respected the symbols of other sovereigns as well.

The reason I respected these symbolism is the represented the original ideals of the country when it was founded. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case. The symbols now represent corrupt and preverse forms of those original ideals or ideals that are quite the contrary to the original.

Therefore, I could care less if the symbols are destroyed.
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on June 24, 2005, 10:12:
 
Just an observation .....
quote:
(about .sig) "GC's Mosthated"

... Look at your .sig. You are absolutely a troll - you have no other intention here than to remain "the most hated person here."

[Roll Eyes] Wait, I've heard this one before !

quote:
Sleeping Beauty, Tom Thumb and Quasimodo were having a terrible fight.

  "I am the most beautiful person in the world," proclaimed Sleeping Beauty.
  "No, you're not," answered Quasimodo and Tom Thumb.
  "I am the smallest person in the world," shouted Tom Thumb.
  "No, you're not," said Sleeping Beauty and Quasimodo."
  "I am the ugliest person in the world," announced Quasimodo.
  "No, you aren't," replied Tom Thumb and Sleeping Beauty.

  Well, they decided that if the three were to get along, they needed a mediator, and decided that Merlin, clearly the smartest person in the world, would be ideal. Merlin agreed and summoned them all to his palace, where he announced he would meet with them one at a time.

  Sleeping Beauty went in first and not a minute later came out beaming.
  "I am the most beautiful person in the world. Merlin says so."
  In went Tom Thumb and out he came as quickly as had Sleeping Beauty.
  "I am the smallest person in the world. Merlin agrees."
  In goes Quasimodo and he stays a half hour, an hour, an hour and a half.
  Finally, he emerges distraught, muttering, "Who the hell is Janet Reno?"


 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on June 24, 2005, 14:06:
 
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB:
Spelling aside, that was a serious request. If you showed us a recent news article about someone being arrested or ridiculed for burning a flag this would be a more meaningful thread and less likely to be perceived as trolling. Right now it looks like you're pulling a subject out of thin air just to be controversial.

I agree with Peebs, if you want to bring up an issue on current events, that's fine, post a link and a reasonably intelligent argument. Drop the ad hominem and slippery slope fallacies.

quote:
Originally posted by bull3t:
for one, i am not a troll. secondly, this is not a dead issue, don't you people watch the damn news?

If flag burning is such a hot issue, where's the other half? I don't see anyone arguing for the amendment here. You were itching for a flame war, and made an ass of yourself trying to start a fight with a non-existent person.

You definitely have the inalienable right to self expression: You can sound like an idiot if you want. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Rhonwyyn (Member # 2854) on June 24, 2005, 20:28:
 
IIRC, the US House or Senate debated (and maybe voted on by now) a bill delineating what treatment of the US flag is/isn't acceptable. The original poster may have heard something about it on the news. A discussion on the pros/cons of such legislation might have been interesting, but unfortunately the original poster decided to act like a [insert derogatory term here] and refused to post a relevant link. [Frown]
 
Posted by ewomack (Member # 3225) on June 24, 2005, 22:42:
 
Anyone for tennis?
 
Posted by Eric (Member # 4026) on June 24, 2005, 22:55:
 
The proposed amendment has been in the national news the whole week, here's a CNN article. The inalienable rights that bull3t is talking about is the first amendment (free speech), which the Supreme Court has ruled covers flag burning. I agree it probably won't pass the 2/3 vote, if it even gets that far.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 28, 2005, 22:29:
 
Flag burning is a touchy subject at best. If you are going to burn your country's flag maybe you should not live in a county that you have such little respect for that you feel the need to burn the flag.

I guess you should have the right to if you must. it is just something that should not be done IMO.

You should be able to express yourself and your frustration with your government without setting the flag on fire.

This is my point of view on the matter, as a U.S. Marine.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on June 29, 2005, 04:30:
 
Ok, so burning the flag isn't going to win you a lot of friends in most countries, but a wise man once said...

A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular.
- Adlai E. Stevenson.

It would seem that GWB and his cronies are intent on making unpopularity a crime.
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on June 29, 2005, 10:24:
 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

It would seem that GWB and his cronies are intent on making unpopularity a crime.

I don't know that I would phrase it as a GWB move. The anti-flag-burning amendment idea certainly didn't originate with him, and I haven't heard him produce much commentary regarding this particular attempt.
 
Posted by Ivan (Member # 2622) on June 29, 2005, 18:52:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ewomack:
Anyone for tennis?

"..wouldn't that be nice.. do doo do do do"


Heheh <_< love that song.

Can I threadjack a flame war? Seems like the honorable thing to do.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on June 30, 2005, 02:12:
 
What is curious from my perspective is why the US flag is such a potent symbol to Americans. I don't think other nations invest nearly as much meaning into their national flags, and certainly that is true of the UK. If someone burnt a Union Jack, they would be regarded as curious and eccentric, and only a very few people would be angered.

Why is the flag so much more emotional for Americans?
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on June 30, 2005, 03:30:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
If someone burnt a Union Jack, they would be regarded as curious and eccentric, and only a very few people would be angered.

In Scotland, you'd have a hard time finding a Union Jack to burn, we prefer to fly our own (and God help anyone who burned one of those !)
 
Posted by Aditu (Member # 2340) on June 30, 2005, 07:05:
 
I have to say I think it is far more disrepectful having the flag on things like underwear etc. That seems more debasing of the symbol than burning it to express your political unhappiness.

My family has fought for the US since the Revolutionary War. My dad served in the Army and yet protested the Vietnam War. I think they fought for me to be able to have my own opinion, whether it is popular or not.
 
Posted by Jonathan (Member # 2724) on June 30, 2005, 08:06:
 
Well, I've been to a flag burning before. It was taken very seriously. I believe it's the right way to dispose the flag. I mean just throwing it away in the dumster would be kinda' bad.
 
Posted by bull3t (Member # 852) on June 30, 2005, 08:27:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan:
Well, I've been to a flag burning before. It was taken very seriously. I believe it's the right way to dispose the flag. I mean just throwing it away in the dumster would be kinda' bad.

Hell yeah. I was a cub/boy scout for almost ten years. I retired many flags.. thats awesome that you would mention this.. it hadn't even crossed my mind when i started this thread.


what... is it that hard to believe i was a boy scout? [Wink]
 
Posted by bull3t (Member # 852) on June 30, 2005, 08:30:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

It would seem that GWB and his cronies are intent on making unpopularity a crime.

I don't know that I would phrase it as a GWB move. The anti-flag-burning amendment idea certainly didn't originate with him, and I haven't heard him produce much commentary regarding this particular attempt.
actually, it started with ORRIN HATCH, the dumb SOB (personal opinion) who respresents utah in the senate.
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on June 30, 2005, 09:54:
 
I'm going to try my hardest to stay as calm as possible.

I may not agree with what you are saying by burning an American flag but I will fight to the death to protect your right to say it. Just be forewarned. If I ever catch anyone burning an American flag and not at a retirement ceromony, the flag that I fight for and the nation and principles that it represents, I will not hesitate to kick your fuckin ass. Too many of my brothers have sweat and bled protecting the flag and the nation it represents and the rights that we are fortunate to have, and I will be damned if I dont excercise my right to free speach and punch them in the fuckin throat for commiting such a disrespectful act of "free speach".
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on June 30, 2005, 10:13:
 
Jace, you will fight to the death to protect the right of free speech, but punch the throat of anyone who exercises that right.

What have you been smoking, dude?
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 30, 2005, 10:23:
 
Looks like the brain washing of boot camp has worked great there Jace [Wink]
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on June 30, 2005, 10:27:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:

Why is the flag so much more emotional for Americans?

Good question. I suspect a lot of it has to do with the general tendency for people in the US to view our flag as a symbol of ideals as much as of a nation. Take Jace's post:

quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
If I ever catch anyone burning an American flag and not at a retirement ceromony, the flag that I fight for and the nation and principles that it represents, I will not hesitate to kick your fuckin ass.

It's not just about the nation, but also the ideals, which tends to breed a stronger reaction in many people. (Hope you don't mind me using you as an example, Jace)
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on June 30, 2005, 10:31:
 
Umm, there's one little loophole in your argument, Jace, ass-kicking isn't speech, free or otherwise. It's assault. Now, if you'd said that you'd verbally tear strips off the people involved, I'd have much more respect for you.
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on June 30, 2005, 11:12:
 
...and flag burning is vandalism. Not speach!
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 30, 2005, 11:26:
 
So.....Flag buring is vandalism.


Then, this must be liberation, right?

 -
 
Posted by Aditu (Member # 2340) on June 30, 2005, 11:29:
 
Two questions

1. Do they burn there own flags as political statments in other countries?

2. How do people feel about flags being used on underwear, beach towels and other item used in a casual way?
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 30, 2005, 11:55:
 
1. Do they burn there own flags as political statments in other countries?

I've seen it happen in Canada

2. How do people feel about flags being used on underwear, beach towels and other item used in a casual way?

I'm pretty patriotic, but seeing a flag on a swim suit or the like doesn't bother me. What does bother me is seeing my flag sewn onto a Yanks backpack/luggage
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on June 30, 2005, 12:03:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
...and flag burning is vandalism. Not speach!

Not if it's your own flag (as in you bought and paid for that particular piece of cloth).

Now if they are tearing the flag down off the capital and burning it I fully support you in kicking ass.
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on June 30, 2005, 12:56:
 
Well I'm glad I have your support in kicking the ass of all burners of our Star-Spangled Banner.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 30, 2005, 14:40:
 
They do no brain wash you in boot camp. He is just a little over zealous.
Beating the crap out of someone that is burning a flag solves/proves nothing. In fact you make a very good point for the other side when you go off like that.

If people want to live in a country they should respect it enough to not burn the flag, other wise they should pick a new country to reside in.

And burning the flag that has is warn and tattered is not what we are talking about. that is different. Anyone who has seen it done knows it is not the same as when people "mob together" and burn a flag in protest. The very thing they are burning and protesting against is the country that gives them the right to gather and protest.

It is just extremely disrespectful and the point would be made much better with out burning the flag.

I spent 18 months in Iraq, I did not totally agree with the reasons we went to Iraq. So I might serve the country and disagree with it at times, but I am not going to burn the flag that I serve.
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 30, 2005, 15:02:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
They do no (sic) brain wash you in boot camp.

Bullshit! Absolute Bullshit.

As a former soldier, and a a trainer in a battle school I can tell you it is all about brainwashing.....you can call it what ever you want.

BootCamp:

*You all get the same hair cut.
*You all wear the same clothes.
*You shit, sleep and eat together.
*Minimal contact with the outside world including friends and family.
*Destroying individuality.
*Sleep deprevation.
*Pushing one to the physical, emotional and mental limits.
*Stripping the individual thought from a soldier.
*Building a group of individuals who will react (as one) to commands, with out question even if it kills them.

That, my friend is brainwashing.

Oh, and as far as Iraq....yes, it is wrong.
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on June 30, 2005, 15:51:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
They do no (sic) brain wash you in boot camp.

Bullshit! Absolute Bullshit.

As a former soldier, and a a trainer in a battle school I can tell you it is all about brainwashing.....you can call it what ever you want.

BootCamp:

*You all get the same hair cut.
*You all wear the same clothes.
*You shit, sleep and eat together.
*Minimal contact with the outside world including friends and family.
*Destroying individuality.
*Sleep deprevation.
*Pushing one to the physical, emotional and mental limits.
*Stripping the individual thought from a soldier.
*Building a group of individuals who will react (as one) to commands, with out question even if it kills them.

That, my friend is brainwashing.

Oh, and as far as Iraq....yes, it is wrong.

I think indoctrination seems a little more appropriate, rather than brainwashing, since, at this time, no one is forced into the program.

It's a subtle difference, I suppose, but it is a difference. [Geek]
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on June 30, 2005, 16:00:
 
So, I you have heard of the draft, right.....
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on June 30, 2005, 17:17:
 
quote:
... brainwashing ....
BWAH-HAHA-HA-HA !!!!!!

Let's see, I remember getting three good meals a day, mandatory sleep time, Sundays were mostly "personal" time, and after three months most people had the same interests as they had beforehand. (It was fairly obvious off-duty, off-base.)

Of my favorite memories, a scene that played out several times:
quote:
McIntire: Drill SGT, that's bulls_it, Drill SGT.
Drill SGT: DROP, McIntire!
(McIntire begins doing pushups.)

McIntire was a lean football player type. He had "perfect" form and aside from running he easily maxed PT events. The Drill SGT would give his short speech and tell McIntire to recover. It really was funny, because McIntire could say what a lot of other people wanted to say, and for all practical purposes not get in any trouble.

I thought that the first lesson in boot camp was: "Don't stand out like a sore thumb." They didn't say it, but 90% of everyone usually figured it out.

quote:
... even if it kills them.
So how many deaths do you see in a typical class at Basic Training? I'll tell you (in case you don't know), none. Exercise and going three or four days without watching TV or playing video games doesn't kill people. Not killing your own people should be pretty easy to understand if you consider a quote from General George S. Patton:
quote:
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
(To Cap'n Vic) Of course, you were in a different army.
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on June 30, 2005, 17:28:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Let's see, I remember getting three good meals a day,

Now that's proof you were brainwashed. No one gets good food in the military! [Big Grin]
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on June 30, 2005, 17:45:
 
quote:
Now that's proof you were brainwashed. No one gets good food in the military! [Big Grin]
You just had to compare it to my "home cooking." [Wink]
(T-Rats were bad, tho' )

Knock, Knock.
 
Posted by nerdwithnofriends (Member # 3773) on June 30, 2005, 18:19:
 
submariners get good food, and MRE's really aren't that bad... just be sure to chew the gum that comes with 'em unless you want to be backed up for a week.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 30, 2005, 20:31:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
They do no (sic) brain wash you in boot camp.

Bullshit! Absolute Bullshit.

As a former soldier, and a a trainer in a battle school I can tell you it is all about brainwashing.....you can call it what ever you want.

BootCamp:

*You all get the same hair cut.
*You all wear the same clothes.
*You shit, sleep and eat together.
*Minimal contact with the outside world including friends and family.
*Destroying individuality.
*Sleep deprevation.
*Pushing one to the physical, emotional and mental limits.
*Stripping the individual thought from a soldier.
*Building a group of individuals who will react (as one) to commands, with out question even if it kills them.

That, my friend is brainwashing.

Oh, and as far as Iraq....yes, it is wrong.

There is no way it is brainwashing. Training and being made to learn to function as a team is what it is. When I joined the Marines I knew there was a chance I would have to do something that might get me killed. That is something you know long before you ever hit boot camp.

Some people think that if they die doing/serving a greater cause is better than just living a dieing.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on June 30, 2005, 20:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
Some people think that if they die doing/serving a greater cause is better than just living a dieing.

So, some people choose to live/die serving a greater cause, and some people burn flags for what they believe is a greater cause. Not so different, in some ways. As long as the flag in question belongs(ed) to one of the people burning it, I really don't see the issue.

/stops before he's tempted to start posting SOAD B.Y.O.B. lyrics.
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on June 30, 2005, 20:57:
 
quote:
So how many deaths do you see in a typical class at Basic Training? I'll tell you (in case you don't know), none. Exercise and going three or four days without watching TV or playing video games doesn't kill people. Not killing your own people should be pretty easy to understand if you consider a quote from General George S. Patton:

(To Cap'n Vic) Of course, you were in a different army.

I saw two deaths in boot camp. One recruit drowned in the pool durring a swim qual and another had a cronic asthma attack after running 7m. My father had a recruit in his platoon that just keeled over and died durring a hygene inspection. His heart just stopped.

As for the rest, I dont know what branch you were in but I wasn't allowed to even think about a TV for 4 months god forbid a video game. It is also about the mental training as well. Everything we learn is to save lives. To save the lives of the marine to the left and right and to the immediate obideance to orders. I could say so much more but in a sence it is a form of brain washing. But it is more of a learning period. There is a specific way to do everything in the marine corps and there are reasons behind that.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 30, 2005, 20:58:
 
Burning your country's flag shows a huge amount of disrespect for it. The same county that you use to your advantage when it suits you. Police, Fire, EMS, Judicial, Education etc.

If you feel so strongly against the country you live in that you need to burn the flag, you should consider moving.
 
Posted by Snaggy (Member # 123) on June 30, 2005, 21:00:
 
There's an excellent examination of the techniques that all armies use to indoctrinate recruits, from the TV series War by Gwynne Dyer. Well worth a look if you can find it. The book War has recently been re-released too.

btw, it was shot on location at the United States Marine Corps Parris Island Training Depot in South Carolina.

Anybody's Son Will Do
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 30, 2005, 21:05:
 
If it is brainwashing I would not have been able to say I do not agree with the reasons we went to Iraq as a member of the USMC.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on June 30, 2005, 21:05:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
Burning your country's flag shows a huge amount of disrespect for it. The same county that you use to your advantage when it suits you. Police, Fire, EMS, Judicial, Education etc.

If you feel so strongly against the country you live in that you need to burn the flag, you should consider moving.

If you don't like it, get out, rather than work to change the system from the inside. If that's the case, why are we in there "helping" out Iraq, all those unhappy indivuals in there should just move out if they don't like the country.

Sorry. That logic doesn't fly with me. If one starts beating up individuals who burn flags, then that swings dangerously close to fascism, at least in my book.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 30, 2005, 21:07:
 
You should work to change it from the inside. Burning the flag does not change things. Instead it splits people into two groups the "Hell yea let it burn it group", and the "OMG they are burning the flag"
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on June 30, 2005, 21:13:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
You should work to change it from the inside. Burning the flag does not change things. Instead it splits people into two groups the "Hell yea let it burn it group", and the "OMG they are burning the flag"

It's making a statement. And a more powerful statement than expressing similar sentiments in words, since it is obviously attracting strong reactions. Once again, it's OK to disagree, it's OK to disagree strongly. But once physical violence results, that's crossing the line.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on June 30, 2005, 21:15:
 
I never said anything about violence, that is the other Marine guy.

I have said that you should have the right to burn the flag, but it is not something that people should do.
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on June 30, 2005, 21:16:
 
This is topic Utterly deplorable in forum Your News! at The Geek Culture Forums.
quote:
Originally posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on May 18, 2005, 14:38:
 
Guys, no one is going to win this, and even if someone did, no one would be happy. Let's just shut up now.

Ha! Stole your line !!! [Razz]
(if this contines, I will post essays, despite both sides not listening to opposing viewpoints.)

BTW:
quote:
A: Knock, Knock.
B: Who's there?
A: man
B: man who

WHO(1)         BSD General Commands Manual         WHO(1)

NAME
    who
-- display who is on the system

SYNOPSIS
    who [-HmqsTu] [am I]
[file]

DESCRIPTION
    The who utility displays information about currently logged in users. By default, this includes the login name, tty name, date and time of login and remote hostname if not local.

[evil]   [evil]   [evil]


 
Posted by maia (Member # 3778) on June 30, 2005, 21:39:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

If bull3t did seek to start sh*t by starting this thread, we have certainly given him plenty of satisfaction.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on June 30, 2005, 22:29:
 
quote:
Originally posted by maia:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

If bull3t did seek to start sh*t by starting this thread, we have certainly given him plenty of satisfaction.
I tried, didn't I?

/me goes to bed...feeling the failure...
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on July 01, 2005, 02:21:
 
I disagree with the above two posts. Although people clearly have strong feelings on this subject, the debate has been fair and even tempered without personal abuse.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
Burning your country's flag shows a huge amount of disrespect for it. The same county that you use to your advantage when it suits you. Police, Fire, EMS, Judicial, Education etc.

If you feel so strongly against the country you live in that you need to burn the flag, you should consider moving.

This argument is uncomfortably close to saying that if you love your country you should not criticise it. But perhaps I misunderstand you, as I still cannot understand why a piece of coloured cloth has this primitive totemic power for most of you. You Americans seem to need religion in one form or another more than the rest of us.
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on July 01, 2005, 04:59:
 
Blame it on Francis Scott Key. [Wink]
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on July 01, 2005, 09:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
I disagree with the above two posts. Although people clearly have strong feelings on this subject, the debate has been fair and even tempered without personal abuse.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
Burning your country's flag shows a huge amount of disrespect for it. The same county that you use to your advantage when it suits you. Police, Fire, EMS, Judicial, Education etc.

If you feel so strongly against the country you live in that you need to burn the flag, you should consider moving.

This argument is uncomfortably close to saying that if you love your country you should not criticise it. But perhaps I misunderstand you, as I still cannot understand why a piece of coloured cloth has this primitive totemic power for most of you. You Americans seem to need religion in one form or another more than the rest of us.
Critisize all you want that is more than fine. If there is something that needs to be changed by all means try to change it. I never said do not try to change it.

I did say:
You should work to change it from the inside. Burning the flag does not change things. Instead it splits people into two groups the "Hell yea let it burn it group", and the "OMG they are burning the flag"
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on July 01, 2005, 10:57:
 
I dont see a, "I'm gonna kick your ass!" group. Which of the two do I fall into then?
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on July 01, 2005, 11:38:
 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by maia:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

If bull3t did seek to start sh*t by starting this thread, we have certainly given him plenty of satisfaction.
I tried, didn't I?

/me goes to bed...feeling the failure...

I don't think bull3t got what he was expecting though. No one so far has come out in support of an anti-flag-burning amendment. The strongest statements we've gotten so far fall into either (paraphrased):

1. You can do it but you shouldn't.
2. You can do it but it would be unwise to do it around me.
 
Posted by Charles (Member # 4000) on July 01, 2005, 18:11:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I dont see a, "I'm gonna kick your ass!" group. Which of the two do I fall into then?

You are in the group that is the police van going to jail for being dumb and acting outside the law.
They do have the right to burn the flag, you do not have the right to hurt anyone.
[ohwell]
 
Posted by ewomack (Member # 3225) on July 01, 2005, 18:36:
 
...and the hamster wheel continues to spin...
[crazy]
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on July 01, 2005, 18:48:
 
What we need here is a good  -
[Wink]
 
Posted by bull3t (Member # 852) on July 05, 2005, 12:22:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by maia:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I have but only one statement - you are a troll, who is seeking nothing more than to start a flame war. I would recommend everyone else here continue to stay quiet on the matter to keep some peace around here.

If bull3t did seek to start sh*t by starting this thread, we have certainly given him plenty of satisfaction.
I tried, didn't I?

/me goes to bed...feeling the failure...

I don't think bull3t got what he was expecting though. No one so far has come out in support of an anti-flag-burning amendment. The strongest statements we've gotten so far fall into either (paraphrased):

1. You can do it but you shouldn't.
2. You can do it but it would be unwise to do it around me.

god i love this forum. i wasn't trying to start shit, or get crazy reactions out of people. i was, however trying to pose a question that people don't put alot of thought into: do we (americans) truly have the rights and freedoms given to us by our consititution?

i love some of the reactions i got, tho. jeez. but yeah.. keep em comin!
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on July 06, 2005, 06:59:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I dont see a, "I'm gonna kick your ass!" group. Which of the two do I fall into then?

You are in the group that is the police van going to jail for being dumb and acting outside the law.
They do have the right to burn the flag, you do not have the right to hurt anyone.
[ohwell]

I think about that and though it may seem to be a bit egotistical fo me, I would proudly go to jail for beating the shit out of a person who burned the flag that I stand for.

I would relate it to this comic:
 -
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on July 06, 2005, 10:02:
 
I don't see the analogy.
 
Posted by Jace Raven (Member # 2444) on July 06, 2005, 11:27:
 
I just like the comic.
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on July 06, 2005, 11:53:
 
Are X-boxen prone to failure?
 
Posted by Demosthenes (Member # 530) on July 06, 2005, 14:57:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I dont see a, "I'm gonna kick your ass!" group. Which of the two do I fall into then?

I nominate myself for the "I'm gonna kick your ass!" group representative...nothing to do with flag-burning, I'm all for the stuff, but there's nothing like a damned good bar-brawl to make the day a little happier. [Razz]

Re: flag burning. I support anything that I can roast marshmallows over, or light a cigarette off of.
 
Posted by Sxeptomaniac (Member # 3698) on July 08, 2005, 01:44:
 
quote:
Originally posted by bull3t:

god i love this forum. i wasn't trying to start shit, or get crazy reactions out of people. i was, however trying to pose a question that people don't put alot of thought into: do we (americans) truly have the rights and freedoms given to us by our consititution?

i love some of the reactions i got, tho. jeez. but yeah.. keep em comin!

You were trying to pose a question? Shouldn't there be an actual question in that original post then? [Roll Eyes]
 


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