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Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on September 28, 2004, 14:50:
 
Just a day or so after Jimmy Carter aired his misgivings over the election process in Florida, I heard another very disturbing report on Radio 4 here in the UK how gerrymandering is subverting congressional elections, and often turning a seat in congress into a job for life.

The US must address these issues if we are to take seriously its mission to spread democracy around the world. Let's try spreading it to Texas first.
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on September 28, 2004, 15:22:
 
You wouldn't be writing this if you were living in the USA!

At least, if you did you would not have a job next week.

I won't go into the "secret arrests" that aren't reported in the press. It's getting very bad over here.

Gotta, go, there's a knock on the door. Homeland Security.

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 28, 2004, 17:06:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
You wouldn't be writing this if you were living in the USA!

Living outside the USA is no guarantee of safety either.

Currently Australia (which has no death penalty) won't extradite anyone at risk of the death penalty. The word is that the aussie government is about to change the law, so that aussies can be sent to face the death penalty before one of GWB's infamous 'military commissions', where the kind of 'secret intelligence reports' that told us Saddam had WMDs is admissable as evidence.

You've gotta do these things to defend Freedom and Justice. [shake head]
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 28, 2004, 17:36:
 
I've got this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomache that tells me Shrub in gonna win the election (either straight up or fraudulently like 2000).

His walnut sized brain will interpret a win validating everything he has done in the past four years.

It makes me wonder which country will top the axis of eeeevil list in 2005. Syria? Iran? A random Korea?
 
Posted by TMBWITW,PB (Member # 1734) on September 28, 2004, 17:47:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
I've got this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomache that tells me Shrub in gonna win the election (either straight up or fraudulently like 2000).

Aaaugh! Don't stay stuff like that. *shudder*
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on September 28, 2004, 18:15:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
It makes me wonder which country will top the axis of eeeevil list in 2005. Syria? Iran? A random Korea?

Rumor has it it will be British Columbia. George WMD Bush can't wrap his brain around that concept.

"Is it British? Is it Columbia? Cocaine? Tea? Do they speak 'British' or Spanish or 'Columbianese?'"

The so-called mind of King George is perplexed and what it can't understand it attacks.

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 28, 2004, 18:24:
 
Not far from the truth Colonel.

The US administration is on us pretty hard about relaxing laws and/or decriminalising soft drugs like pot and hash. To top it of BC is a major producer and hugs the US border [Eek!]
 
Posted by GMx (Member # 1523) on September 28, 2004, 18:45:
 
Sadly, this isn't anything new. It's been going on since the country was founded. But it seems to be one of the Republican's favorite dirty tricks (among their many). It went on a lot during the '60's too to keep Democratic civil rights canadates from being able to gain too much power.
It's interesting that I haven't seen or heard any national news reports over here about this story.
 
Posted by dragonman97 (Member # 780) on September 28, 2004, 18:51:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Not far from the truth Colonel.

The US administration is on us pretty hard about relaxing laws and/or decriminalising soft drugs like pot and hash. To top it of BC is a major producer and hugs the US border [Eek!]

Hmm...I forgot about Canada when considering ways in which drugs might enter the US. It must be that *good impression* I have of Canada which keeps me from believing anything bad happens up there [Wink] . Why do I expect to here that George wants to to^Hake a quick trip from BC to DC? [Razz]
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 28, 2004, 19:02:
 
Exactly dman. There is smaggling of drugs, people and guns into the US via Canada. The bad guys know that we are pretty slack compared to US law makers if the get caught. Plus sharing the largest unmanned border helps too.
 
Posted by MTB Babe (Member # 2297) on September 28, 2004, 19:45:
 
I have to admit that I am guilty of smuggling illegal substances into the country from Canada. I buy sunblock that contains mexoryl, which hasn't been approved by the FDA in the U.S. *hears the FBI pounding at the door*

[devil wand]
 
Posted by MacManKrisK (Member # 955) on September 28, 2004, 21:17:
 
<troll>

Did someone mention BC Bud?! [Eek!]

</troll>
 
Posted by Erbo (Member # 199) on September 28, 2004, 22:37:
 
Gerrymandering isn't news; it's been going on ever since the word was coined in 1812 (see this Wikipedia article for more information on the term and the practice). Both Democrats and Republicans practice it, and it often leads to fights over redistricting. Texas is one recent example; so is Colorado. Not saying it's right or anything, but it's just part of life. Much of it counterbalances in the end.

And, when analyzing anything Jimmy Carter says about the election, please bear in mind that he's in the tank for Kerry. The mainstream media reported what he said without criticism, because the mainstream media is also in the tank for Kerry. Neither may be considered an "unbiased source" at this point.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on September 29, 2004, 02:31:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Gerrymandering isn't news....<snip> Both Democrats and Republicans practice it, and it often leads to fights over redistricting. ...<snip> but it's just part of life. Much of it counterbalances in the end.

the mainstream media is also in the tank for Kerry. Neither may be considered an "unbiased source" at this point.

The radio report also pointed out that both parties are equally guilty, and to me the most alarming aspect of the report was the complacent attitude displayed by many of those interviewed, that could perhaps be summed up by your remark, that "it's just part of life". No it is not. It is (or at any rate should be) a most serious crime, as it is an attempt to subvert the democratic process, and make politicians less accountable to the electorate. It should not be beyond the wit of man to set up something in the US that is equivalent to the independent Boundary Commission that we have here to settle such matters.

I am of course aware of Jimmy Carter's political beliefs, but perhaps you should listen to the message, rather than rubbish the messenger. Lastly Erbo I just cannot understand your belief (widespread amongst you radical rightwingers) that the US media is run by some liberal conspiracy. What I see of the US media that percolates to this side of the Atlantic is a definite lack of any hard edged criticism of your government. What you think of as the "liberal" media seems increasingly scared to air anything the White House might not like, while those more partisan, like Fox News and this rash of radical right wing commentators, seem to be driving the political agenda, and make no pretence at all of any balance in their coverage. You should at least give the other side a fair hearing, even if you disagree with their views.
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on September 29, 2004, 03:46:
 
Dear Sirs_____at the expense of sounding alarmist, I as a Vietnam Vet, I am scared, I love my country but I am afraid of my govererment. In many areas near where I live there are local militias, I have not joined one but have considered the option but I am an old man and I am afraid that I could no longer crawl through the ditches and climb trees as I once did, also I would fear that this country would not follow the Geneva Convention if it were in an other Civil War.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 29, 2004, 05:24:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
It should not be beyond the wit of man to set up something in the US that is equivalent to the independent Boundary Commission that we have here to settle such matters.

This is the thing I find most odd about the American system, the lack of what most other English-speaking countries (and many others of course) take for granted, a non-partisan civil service who administer the law impartially.

Every level of government is overtly politicised, often with disastrous results.

There was an aussie on trial for murder in Florida a few years back, he was convicted, but the circumstances were such that the jury recommended leniency.

The judge sentenced him to death.

A couple of months later the judge came up for re-election, (that's right, they elect their judges) and his campaign ads boasted that he was "tough on crime" and had delivered more death penalties than any other judge in the state.

Call me old-fashioned if you will, but if I'm ever on trial for my life, I'd rather not be facing a judge^h^h^h^h^hpolitician who's career depends on setting that kind of record.
 
Posted by knightwhosaysNI (Member # 2079) on September 29, 2004, 06:06:
 
Canada, people, nitro and snaggy got it right the first time!
it's like america, only with universal health care and cheap perscription drugs.
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on September 29, 2004, 06:28:
 
While many people fear an impending civil war, there is a vast amount of evidence to suggest that a civil war will not occur.

Take a look at the last American Civil War. The cause of the war was a movement to abolish slavery. Dissenting states then seceded from the Union. These states formed their own country with an amry.

If you look at Red vs Blue states, you'll see that states with populations that are dominantly opposed to bush are primarily located in the northeast and the west coast. With the red states in the middle, they would have an advantage based on a divide-and-conquer framework.

However, for this to be acomplished, states would first have to secede from the Union. In order for that to occur, in each seceding state there would have to be an overwelming opposition to bush to such a degree that would warrent such a secession.

That degree is far from being reached. In twentieth century America, there several movements that ushered in radical political change. Such movements include women's suffrage, the civil rights movement, the anti-vietnam war movement. None of these movements, no matter how radical or violent, resulted in a civil war.
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on September 29, 2004, 06:54:
 
quote:
Originally posted by knightwhosaysNI:
Canada, people, nitro and snaggy got it right the first time!
it's like america, only with universal health care and cheap perscription drugs.

And colder, and more mosquitos, eh?

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on September 29, 2004, 07:34:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
quote:
Originally posted by knightwhosaysNI:
Canada, people, nitro and snaggy got it right the first time!
it's like america, only with universal health care and cheap perscription drugs.

And colder, and more mosquitos, eh?

Colonel Panic

Better beer, no mass genocide on our part in Iraq, better music (as far as I'm concerned), Bob & Doug MacKenzie, and WAY less gun deaths than our American counterparts.

I like many Americans, but like most Americans, I hate the American government and what its done.
 
Posted by Stereo (Member # 748) on September 29, 2004, 07:41:
 
And may I add that Céline has her show in Las Vegas and rarely comes "home" anymore? [evil]
 
Posted by drunkennewfiemidget (Member # 2814) on September 29, 2004, 07:42:
 
Another reason Canada is better. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 29, 2004, 08:47:
 
American is nothing more than a bunch of Shatner-stealing Mexico-touchers* [Razz]


*Stolen from a recent Simpsons
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on September 29, 2004, 10:47:
 
_____The red verses blue issue is not why the militias are forming it is because of percieved loss of local control, leading some to believe that they are being oppressed by the Federal Government
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on September 29, 2004, 10:59:
 
quote:
American is nothing more than a bunch of Shatner-stealing Mexico-touchers
You can have Shatner back and since your at it take Alanis Moriset and Brian Adams back as well
 
Posted by MacGenius (Member # 1333) on September 29, 2004, 11:54:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
I won't go into the "secret arrests" that aren't reported in the press. It's getting very bad over here.

[Eek!] WTF??

Damned Bush.
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on September 29, 2004, 12:23:
 
_______If you are thought to be too subversive you just disappear, some times your relatives hear about your arrest and some times they don't. Your missing person report goes cold case and your family can't get your picture on a milk carton. I have heard of such arrests in the Detroit area but do not have more info.
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on September 29, 2004, 12:47:
 
We wont be hearing much from Mo anymore [shake head]
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 29, 2004, 14:07:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
And may I add that Céline has her show in Las Vegas and rarely comes "home" anymore? [evil]

Could that be due to the small but vocal group of nutters who are quite impolite to her whenever she returns to Quebec?
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 29, 2004, 14:14:
 
quote:
Originally posted by MacGenius:
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
I won't go into the "secret arrests" that aren't reported in the press. It's getting very bad over here.

[Eek!] WTF??

Damned Bush.

This is not just the ramblings of a paranoid.

There was an article in the paper here in oz recently, civil liberties lawyers in the US are trying to gain access to (or even a list of the names of) a large number of people (disremember the exact number, but it was in the hundreds) who had been arrested and held for months/years without access to lawyers, or anyone (family included) told of their arrest.

The US government admits they have them, but insists that 'National Security' would be at risk if their names were released.

So, as far as the families of these people are concerned, Frank went off to work one day and never came home.

Maybe he ran off with a blonde.

Maybe he fell victim to a serial killer.

Maybe he's chained to a wall in some military prison with electrodes attached to his 'nads.

They'll never know.

'Disappeared' used to be synonymous with brutal fascist dictatorships in South America, now it's just one more weapon in the defence of freedom.
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on September 29, 2004, 14:49:
 
TFD you should have at least some link to a reputable news organisation if you post something like this if you don't want to be dismissed as a paranoid left wing fantasist.

So?
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 29, 2004, 15:00:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
TFD you should have at least some link to a reputable news organisation if you post something like this if you don't want to be dismissed as a paranoid left wing fantasist.

So?

record-keeping was never my strong suite..... [Frown]

I'll google around a bit later and see if I can find something.

[edit]
this link to the ACLU probably refers to the same case, although the newspaper article had quite a bit more detail.
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on September 29, 2004, 18:18:
 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
quote:
Originally posted by knightwhosaysNI:
Canada, people, nitro and snaggy got it right the first time!
it's like america, only with universal health care and cheap perscription drugs.

And colder, and more mosquitos, eh?

Colonel Panic

Better beer, no mass genocide on our part in Iraq, better music (as far as I'm concerned), Bob & Doug MacKenzie, and WAY less gun deaths than our American counterparts.

I like many Americans, but like most Americans, I hate the American government and what its done.

Well my midget friend.

I love Canada. After all, it took my ex wife and won't give her back. God bless you all.

Now, on to this nasty business you pointed out.

Due to some incredible restraints put on General Sherman, real Americans still have to put up with ... "Dixie." Consider "Dixie" the insane relative folks have hidden in the closet when company visits.

Only we don't put that relative in the closet. We put him on the front porch and have him play, "Dueling Banjos" And just like when Fido starts humping a guest's leg, we nervously laugh in the same way when they start in with their sisters, cousins, mamas and Ned Beatty.

They love to engage in losing wars and make believe they won. They did it 140 years ago, during Korea, during 'Nam, and they are doing it now. They also believe assasination is a perfectly legitimate political tool. Ask Abe Lincoln, ask Johhny Kennedy, Ask Martin Luther King.

They also believe anybody they don't like should not vote. Just ask anybody whose skin is darker than fresh-hewn cherry wood.

Also, here is a fun fact: there isn't a single Texan who has assumed the Presidency of the USA by legitimate means. So bear with us. The Texas trick: make up a reason to go to war.

As for toruture and genocide -- look just because these folks refer to Abu Gharib as "Andersonville II," doesn't mean it's right.

And yes, some of them have migrated north -- after all when you live in a part of the world where, if they had succeeded in succession, they would be 1/3 as productive as your average bananna republic, then you'd understand why they move about (usually with mattresses on top of their cars, moonshine in their bellies, meth in their noses, and the Dixie battle flag a-flutterin').

Please, don't confuse good-minded Yankees with Johnny-Bob Cracker-Billy. Think of it this way; their religion is based on the same one that got Evangiline kicked out of Canada. And once they settled, they created a community upon which the phrase "sold down the river" is based. We really didn't want them either. But it's hot and swampy down there, nobody was paying attention when the moved in, and they were too lazy to try for Paraguay (Now there's thought the Third Reich meets Dixie).

Like a cancer, we're stuck with them until some genious has a cure. I was hoping they'd support their dirty little war so much they'd sign up and get killed over there, but like their hero George WMD Bush they'd rather get other people's kids involved, and dodge the fight than actually participate. Afterwards, they can sit back and call the combats vets of those wars, "cowards and traitors." It's easier for them that way -- they have no morals.

I realize it's conversations like this that kind of chased me out of here. I try not to be involved in threads that point them out.

Alas I am but a weak man in evil times. And I do resent being associated with the redneck behavior of our lesser bretheren in this country.

God gave Sherman a terrible swift sword. We'd have appreciated it more if God had given Sherman nuclear arms. It would solve a lot of problems in this world. We have been, however, mildly comforted by the Hurricanes he's been sending.

By the way, a recent quiz on political events showed the average viewer of Fox News is a lot more clueless than any other TV viewer in the US. It validates what most members of the right side of the bell curve already knew.

And, Cap'n Vic, we're not giving Cap'n Kirk back. We think he's kind of funny.

Colonel Panic
 
Posted by Erbo (Member # 199) on September 29, 2004, 18:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
It should not be beyond the wit of man to set up something in the US that is equivalent to the independent Boundary Commission that we have here to settle such matters.

Then you have the question of who's actually going to sit on said Commission, and that process gets highly politicized. I'm sorry, but you just can't take politics out of this process; both sides realize they have too much at stake.

At least, in a process like the one in Colorado after the 2000 census, they managed to keep things pretty stable. They ensured that the existing districts would most likely keep their current representatives (and their current party affiliations), and they made the new Seventh District competitive enough that there was a good chance for either party to win it. Turns out a Republican (Bob Beauprez) won it, but it was a close race.

quote:
I am of course aware of Jimmy Carter's political beliefs, but perhaps you should listen to the message, rather than rubbish the messenger.
I did listen to the message. It was utter nonsense.

quote:
I just cannot understand your belief (widespread amongst you radical rightwingers) that the US media is run by some liberal conspiracy.
I did not say there was a conspiracy. I said the mainstream media was in the tank for Kerry. Whether they decided together to go that route or all decided on it independently is irrelevant; this is the effect.

When the Associated Press can publish multiple stories that make Bush look bad and then retract them shortly thereafter without comment, and when CBS News can conduct a smear campaign against a sitting president--in wartime, yet!--based around innuendo and documents which are not just forgeries, but blatant forgeries, one begins to smell a rat.

FYI, Fox News presents a lot of liberal views, in their continuing attempt to be "fair and balanced," but the rest of the media is tilted so far to the left that they make Fox look tilted to the right by comparison. And, whether you use your radio to dial up Janeane Garofalo or Rush Limbaugh, you pretty well know where they stand; they're not claiming to be totally objective. Ditto whether you point your Web browser to Daily Kos or Little Green Footballs. The mainstream media, however, is making such a claim, one which I can no longer take at face value.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 29, 2004, 20:20:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
It should not be beyond the wit of man to set up something in the US that is equivalent to the independent Boundary Commission that we have here to settle such matters.

Then you have the question of who's actually going to sit on said Commission, and that process gets highly politicized. I'm sorry, but you just can't take politics out of this process; both sides realize they have too much at stake.

The above nicely illustrates the problem.

Many other countries have such commissions, and they work well because they are apolitical, and any attempt to unduely influence them would be seen as a major corruption scandal. The public wouldn't stand for it, heads would roll.

In the US, you expect these things to be politicised, when they are shown to have been politicised you just shrug your shoulders and say 'thats politics', and so the problem continues.
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 29, 2004, 21:34:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
And, Cap'n Vic, we're not giving Cap'n Kirk back. We think he's kind of funny.

He may be getting deported after this anyway. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Colonel Panic (Member # 1200) on September 30, 2004, 00:31:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
[QB] [QUOTE]
FYI, Fox News presents a lot of liberal views, in their continuing attempt to be "fair and balanced," but the rest of the media is tilted so far to the left that they make Fox look tilted to the right by comparison. /QB]

As far as I'm concerned you don't have a right to speak until you find your goddamned weapons of mass destruction.

I have family over there and all you have is your head up your ass.

The real obscenity in this post is I go to bed at night praying for the safe return of family sent to Iraq for a lie that Erbo and his buddies are too damned chicken to admit to, too yellow to fight for, and too cheap to pay for.

He shits on a war hero like Kerry and worships a draft dodger in Bush. That's all me and my buddies at the VFW need to know about Erbo.

Now, Erb, why don't you go back to your Sean Hannity and that little fantasy island you and he live on? The rest of us have to deal with cleaning up the hell of a reality your lies have created. Some have funerals to attend to. Others have sisters, nephews and nieces living in poverty because you and Bush won't pay their reservist husbands a living wage while they are fighting for a war you say you fervently believe in. You goddmaned, chickenshit liar.

Colonel "Served with Honor and Erbo didn't" Panic.

(Oh, Cally, the real failure in our Democracy right now, is that corporate news now only presents the unquestioning, cleansed corporate view of the world. And idiots like Erbo are so brainwashed by it they are willing to call networks like NBC -- a network wholly owned by a major defense contractor (General Electric, makers of fighter and bomber jet engines) -- liberal.

The term "morbidly ignorant" doesn't begin to describe the deadly state of denial in which this idot lives.)
 
Posted by Callipygous (Member # 2071) on September 30, 2004, 04:21:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Then you have the question of who's actually going to sit on said Commission, and that process gets highly politicized. I'm sorry, but you just can't take politics out of this process; both sides realize they have too much at stake.

Well Erbo it's a trick we have managed over here, and the radio programme said that Ohio has also managed to depoliticise the process. I am sure it is not as hard as you imagine. Those who say it is so problematic, seem in the main to be those that benefit from the status quo. Quelle surprise!

quote:
I did listen to the message. It was utter nonsense.
Would you care to expand your critique. What in particular was "nonsense"? His arguments seemed logical to me, and supported by facts. I would note also that his original report on Florida was co-authored by Gerald Ford, and so should not be dismissed as completely partisan.

quote:
CBS News can conduct a smear campaign against a sitting president--in wartime
Remember that some of us think the "War on Terror" is more a rhetorical device, and an excuse to curtail civil liberties, than a real war. Even if you do share GWB's vision, I would hope that does not mean you think he should be exempt from all scrutiny.

And all I can do is repeat that from my perspective here, your press and TV gives your government an extremely easy ride. Still your sentimental loyalty to your President is I suppose one of the US's more endearing characteristics.
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on September 30, 2004, 06:09:
 
quote:
Due to some incredible restraints put on General Sherman, real Americans still have to put up with ... "Dixie." Consider "Dixie" the insane relative folks have hidden in the closet when company visits.

Only we don't put that relative in the closet. We put him on the front porch and have him play, "Dueling Banjos" And just like when Fido starts humping a guest's leg, we nervously laugh in the same way when they start in with their sisters, cousins, mamas and Ned Beatty.

Mr. Panic,

I have lived in the north all my life. The land of 10,000 lakes has always been my home and I like it here. But I also do like the south. The people you see in the movies like deliverence, Thats not giving the most exact profile for the entire south. There may be some out there like that but in general they are good people. If for some odd reson the civil war where to start up again I would have to move to Canada becasue I would not be able to pick a side. It would be Americans killing Americans and that would be something I wouldn't be able to bear. And another thing, The south really has the best food. I consider this great country to be the whole country "From sea to shining sea" And every person here just as important as the rest. And from the people I have know (Not that many but some) The racist nonsence is for the most part gone, It's just like being in the north but with a cooler accent and not so much cold.
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on September 30, 2004, 06:14:
 
Oh and one more thing, By being prejudice against the south you bring your self down to the mentality of the old south. Things have changed, And you shouldn't judge every person before you meet them. Thank you and have a good day.
 
Posted by TheMoMan (Member # 1659) on September 30, 2004, 07:12:
 
______Please excuse the ramblings of an old man, Most of you know that I am a Vietnam Vet. There is no excuse for this war, we have a right to be chasing Bin Laudin around Afganistan but pray tell why are we in IRAQ is there some connection that I am missing?
____I remember studing History in school and one of my instructors pointing out that we stole California from the Mexicans and that it was a blemish on our history WHAT THE HELL IS THIS we go out and attack some country because thier leader "tried to kill my dad", I AM QUOTING THE SHRUB.
____ One month ago I went to see one of the moving walls that tours this country so that we will not forget what happened in French Indo China, there are over FIFTY FOUR THOUSAND names on that wall, and now we have to build a new one for the thousands that are dying in the Middle East.
_____Most of the posters to this forum grew up in times of peace and have no idea of what war is other than what is shown on the nightly news, and in the theators, that is not war. From the movies we see to the television shows that many people watch, we as a society have cheaponed life to the point that no one cares about the body count.
____I have to agree with The Colonel unless you can tell me the names of the people in your outfit that did not come home with all off thier body parts and breathing maybe you should just SHUT UP AND LISTEN. I have listened to too many sit on thier ASS WANNABES that do not know what real fear is bad mouth people that stood up to the call, go listen to the country tune SOME GAVE ALL. If you do not cry when you hear that, then you are a heartless POS.
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on September 30, 2004, 08:38:
 
While you are correct in assuming that I grew up in peace, I am not prevented from understanding the futility of war. Sure, there may be times when we have to go rescue an invaded country be it France, Poland or even Kuwait. In those cases, we were intervening on behalf of the invaded countries.

So why did we invade Iraq if there are no WMDs? I'm pretty sure the argument-du-jour is so that the Iraqis can have their freedom. Maybe it's because they were harboring terrorists (The terrorist Bush claims to have ties with Bagdad was consistently confused with one that blew up a plane in Italy). It is certainly true that there are more terrorists in Iraq now than there were before we invaded the country.
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 30, 2004, 08:50:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
It would be Americans killing Americans and that would be something I wouldn't be able to bear.

Um, in case you didn't notice Americans are being killed by other Americans sending them to an unjust war. The rich sending to poor and working class to do the dirty work, as usual.

Right now, 1050 families have lost a family member.

7000 have had a family member dismembered.

1000 have deserted their country and are in hiding.

Countless others will have long term issues like post traumatic stress and the like.

And all that is just on the US side. Imagine the devastation of those poor Iraqis. Tens of thousands killed, both civilian and 'insurgents'. Men women and children. Cities and villages flattened. Infrastruture destroyed. All for what?

quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
The racist nonsence is for the most part gone, It's just like being in the north but with a cooler accent and not so much cold.

It is safe to assume you are white and living in a primarily white area, because to quote the good Colonel your head is up yer arse if you believe that.
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on September 30, 2004, 09:32:
 
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mac D:
The racist nonsence is for the most part gone, It's just like being in the north but with a cooler accent and not so much cold.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is safe to assume you are white and living in a primarily white area, because to joke the good Colonel your head is up yer arse if you believe that.

Maybe you assume to much
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 30, 2004, 09:50:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
Maybe you assume to much

Care to elaborate? Maybe I can post something a little easier for you to understand.

What I am eluding to is that racism is real, and I am not just talking about the American south. It does exist, and anyone who thinks it doesn't is in deep denial.
 
Posted by Mac D (Member # 2926) on September 30, 2004, 09:55:
 
I never said it did not exist, I just said it's not as wide spread as it once was. Peaople are aloud to ride on any buss and in any part of the bus, They can shop anyplace they want and they can go and vote for any person they want (I don't want to hear about the Miami situation) And yes there are those out there that beilieve that it should not be that way. I for one do not agree with that.
 
Posted by ASM65816 (Member # 712) on September 30, 2004, 12:17:
 
Part I
(in reference to citizens of the southern states of the U.S.)
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Like a cancer, we're stuck with them until some genious has a cure.


So, do you figure that about 25% of the U.S. is a "cancer"?

Don't racists make mass judgements based on where people are from? Or is there a better term for regional prejudice?

Maybe people from the north move to the south because they hope to see cross-burnings and hangs, as if no one moves to an area for milder climate or other reasons.

Part II

As for the war in Iraq: Is doing nothing a virtue?

Given:
- City Population of 10,000 (100%)
- A Street Gang (Thugs) 20 members (0.2% of total population)

If each Thug kills one Law-Abiding Citizen per week, the Street Gang will kill 1,040 people in one year.

In one year, this results in the death of more than 10% of the population.

In theory, this casual pace of killing one person per week per thug would wipeout the city in just under 10 years.

In reality, if the law-abiding citizens did not fight back, they'd probably just run away and become a burden on some nearby city.

Of course, the citizens could offer to serve the thugs unconditionally in return for sparing their lives, as a "peaceful" solution.

I tried to make a point about letting tyrants have their way as not being a good thing: Moral Cowardice is Not a Virtue
http://www.geekculture.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=001535

... but a lot of problems go away by ignoring them. [Roll Eyes]
(one of) Murphy's Laws of Combat: All bleeding stops ... eventually.
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on September 30, 2004, 12:45:
 
Okay, I've more or less given up on arguing with neo-cons as it has as much point as arguing with creationists, but here's where I think people get lost in this whole Iraq debate.

I agree, Saddam was a bad man. However, he did not pose any immediate threat to the US. Taking him out was not critical to the war on terror. In fact, it was detrimental. We drew resources away from Afghanistan. We destabilized Iraq, and have now made it into a breeding ground for terrorists. I feel more endagnered now than I ever have.

People are talking about how we had to liberate Iraq from Saddam. Well, here's the thing: revolutions HAVE to start at home. You can't impose a revolution on someone else. It doesn't work. To be legitimate, a government must govern by the consent of the governed, not an outside force (study some political philosophy). What we could have done and HAD THE OPPURTUNITY IN 1991 TO DO is give the dissenters and revolutionaries our support. Remember how Bush I urged the Iraqis to rise up, only to abandon them? That was our mistake. If we had backed them instead of betraying them, we would not be in this mess today. As it was, we left them to the mercy of the Republican Guard, only to come back ten years later to blow their country to bits, and then realize we had no idea how to even begin reconstructionin a region so different and in a culture so different from our own.

I never supported this war in Iraq. It makes me embarrassed to be an American when I travel. I want to be able to be proud of my country again, which is why I will vote for Kerry, even though I have no love for him either (I despise any politician who voted in favor of this war).
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 30, 2004, 13:00:
 
So, ASM65816. When are you heading over to the middle east to kill yourself some rag heads and make the world a better place for all of us?

Chicken shit.
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on September 30, 2004, 13:15:
 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:

As for the war in Iraq: Is doing nothing a virtue?

You're comparing apples to oranges.
Your use of the term "virtue" implies that the following link may be useful.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=virtue

I'm going to assume you meant to ask, "As for the war in Iraq: Should we have done nothing?" You are now arguing that not doing anything is better than causing that quagmire over there in the Middle-East.

What do you suppose would have happened?

Would Saddam have gassed more Kurds? Would more Iraqis have died? Would more American, Australian, or British soldiers and civilians be dead? Would there be more terrorists?

Since all of these answers are no, then it is feasable that doing nothing would have been a perfectly reasonable option. At the very least, it would have outweighted the option chosen by Bush & Co, LLC.
 
Posted by csk (Member # 1941) on September 30, 2004, 15:07:
 
There's been some good points in this argument so far. As I'm sure I've posted before, my objection to this whole war in Iraq debacle is the blatant lying and somersaults about why we (I'll use "we" since Australia's in there as well, thanks to our US-butt-kissing PM) went in there in the first place. The whole WMD thing is a total farce, and now we're supposed to believe that the intention was always to liberate the Iraqi people rather than this whole thing being either a monumental stuff-up or engineered for political/financial gain. I always thought the "We have always been at war with Eurasia" was a bit of a stretch in 1984, but here it is, bright as day, in practice.

The other point is, take note of what those with military background/connections are saying. Now I'm not in that category, but those who are are saying that this war is unnecessary and a waste of human lives on both sides. I'm betting those same people wouldn't be saying the same thing about Afghanistan, which speaks volumes to me.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on September 30, 2004, 15:43:
 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
I'm betting those same people wouldn't be saying the same thing about Afghanistan, which speaks volumes to me.

The 'coalition of the willing' experience in Iraq is looking chillingly like the Soviet experience in Afghanistan.

A large military presence supporting a puppet government whos authority barely extends beyond the capital (and not even all of the capital).

An occupying force who huddle in their compounds, and dare not leave their bases except in armoured convoys with air support.

Daily air-raids against 'insurgent bases', which inevitably result in many civilian deaths and serve only to further alienate the locals. (to quote a former Soviet commander - every time you kill one local, his brothers, his cousins, his uncles all become your sworn enemy)

No discernable plan on the part of the occupiers, other than a grim determination to 'stay the distance', with no idea of how far that distance is.

Come to think of it, the coalition experience in Afghanistan looks pretty much like that too.
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 30, 2004, 16:15:
 
Coalition of the willing should read:

Coalition of the afraid to get their ass whipped if you don't get onboard with this oil war.
 
Posted by Tech Angel (Member # 908) on September 30, 2004, 21:25:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
I've got this horrible feeling in the pit of my stomache that tells me Shrub in gonna win the election (either straight up or fraudulently like 2000).

My intuition tells me that the voting public may need to experience another four years of Bush & Co., and the consequences thereof, before they no longer allow themselves to be passively manipulated by a political system gone awry. For all the wrong directions he's taken on foreign and domestic issues, I don't fault Bush as much as I do the political system which allows candidates like him to get to the White House. That system has created such a vast dichotomy now between "having the traits it takes to be a good President" and "having the traits it takes to be elected President" that the people who would actually be effective at leading this country and managing its resources (both people and natural) would never even attempt to run. So we end up with the likes of candidates which leave voters wondering "Are there any other choices?".

Case in point about "the system": Does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent the best this enormous state could come up with to lead it? If so, I fear for our future.

~ TA
 
Posted by Cap'n Vic (Member # 1477) on September 30, 2004, 21:46:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Case in point about "the system": Does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent the best this enormous state could come up with to lead it? If so, I fear for our future.

Whatchu talkin' 'bout?

 -
 
Posted by Danapoppa (Member # 1555) on October 03, 2004, 22:33:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Case in point about "the system": Does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent the best this enormous state could come up with to lead it? If so, I fear for our future.

Just wait till he gets elected president. [Razz]

You know it's gonna happen. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on October 04, 2004, 05:25:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Case in point about "the system": Does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent the best this enormous state could come up with to lead it? If so, I fear for our future.

Just wait till he gets elected president. [Razz]

You know it's gonna happen. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

Did someone say, Demolition Man?
 
Posted by Xanthine (Member # 736) on October 04, 2004, 21:49:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Case in point about "the system": Does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent the best this enormous state could come up with to lead it? If so, I fear for our future.

Just wait till he gets elected president. [Razz]

You know it's gonna happen. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

They'd have to amend the constitution first.
 
Posted by The Famous Druid (Member # 1769) on October 04, 2004, 22:27:
 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:
quote:
Originally posted by Tech Angel:
Case in point about "the system": Does Arnold Schwarzenegger represent the best this enormous state could come up with to lead it? If so, I fear for our future.

Just wait till he gets elected president. [Razz]

You know it's gonna happen. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

They'd have to amend the constitution first.
So?
They've torn up most of it already .....
 
Posted by ooby (Member # 2603) on October 05, 2004, 09:13:
 
The constitution is a forgery.
 


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