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Author Topic: The slimy underbelly of...
fs

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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2009 07:51      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nice Guys.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2009 10:28      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________ fs __________________

____ This just goes to prove that the two genders do not speak the same language, when talking or writing about the other. For some words the meanings are gender specific. For all intents and purposes the language looks and sounds the same but is not. Please note I am trying to be as neutral as I can, and not come across as sexist. I did notice that the authors of those documents were not at all ( PC ).

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fs

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 01:43      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think it's a gender thing. The dissection of the letter from a former "nice guy" was written by a guy.

I'm not sure how to begin being politicaly correct about it. Or why it deserves it? The particular brand of "nice guy" they are talking about is, at core, someone that hates women and is frustrated by the fact that they aren't subservient puppets, amenable to his will.

And this is not to say that there are not genuinely nice guys out there. I live with one of them. But that is worlds away from the self-identified "nice guy" who is only nice because he wants something in return. That's not actually very nice at all.

I thought it was an interesting topic to bring up here because I think geek guys tend to fall into the "nice guy" persona.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 02:40      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
The particular brand of "nice guy" they are talking about is, at core, someone that hates women and is frustrated by the fact that they aren't subservient puppets, amenable to his will.

So, is every 'unlucky in love' woman who's ever whined to her pals about men a 'man-hater'?


quote:
that is worlds away from the self-identified "nice guy" who is only nice because he wants something in return. That's not actually very nice at all.
Everyone, male or female, who has ever gone on a date 'wants something', what's wrong with that?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10669 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 03:59      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
The particular brand of "nice guy" they are talking about is, at core, someone that hates women and is frustrated by the fact that they aren't subservient puppets, amenable to his will.

So, is every 'unlucky in love' woman who's ever whined to her pals about men a 'man-hater'?
The instant you bring the word "every" into it, you of course falsify it. You know that. Tsk tsk Druid. I clarified that the discussion was (at least on my part) about a specific subset of guys who claim to be "nice." Obviously if the guy in question doesn't hate women and isn't angry and frustrated because they don't fall out of their sopping panties for him every time he extends basic human courtesy to them, he's probably not in the zone of "nice guys" being discussed.

quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Everyone, male or female, who has ever gone on a date 'wants something', what's wrong with that?

Granted, "want" was a poor word choice. It's more like the idea that by being "nice" to a girl, she now owes him something "nice" in return. It's no different than than a neanderthal jock springing for Mickey D's and expecting some sucky-sucky in the parking lot afterward. Well, except that it's more emotionally manipulative.

I thought the anecdote from the first link was particularly telling. There's a group of friends, and one of the guys likes the girl, and when she doesn't reciprocate the feeling, she's done something wrong, because he's nice and that means she's duty bound to become his paramour.

There's a whole mess of entitlement issues that go along with the "nice guy" persona. And basically, what it comes down to is that someone who believes they are entitled to romantic and sexual involvement with a woman fails, on a basic level, to recognize her as an equal. Or anything other than a recalcitrant possession.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 07:26      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
...fails, on a basic level, to recognize her as an equal. Or anything other than a recalcitrant possession.

You say that like it's a bad thing. [evil]

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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angryjungman

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 08:54      Profile for angryjungman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
It's no different than than a neanderthal jock springing for Mickey D's and expecting some sucky-sucky in the parking lot afterward.

I almost peed myself laughing from that. Excellent turn of a phrase fs. [Big Grin]

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 09:47      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's a spectrum of nice people who act nice, nice people who act like jerks, jerks who act like nice people, and jerks who act like jerks. It's not that hard to see the difference. The other thing trap the guys who run the nice guy act fall into is, because they really aren't intrinsically nice and therefore don't know how to do it and do it wrong, they get nice confused with doormat. No one likes a doormat. Girls fall into that nice=doormat trap as well (actaully, sometimes we get thrust into it, because obviously any woman who doesn't just roll over is a feminazi bitch [Roll Eyes] ).

Amusingly enough, on one of our early adventures (I can't even remember what the plan was, I just remember it involved wilderness and a guy who at the time I barely knew) my fiancee told me not to worry, he was a "nice guy". Seriously. He put that in an e-mail with the quotation marks. I put up a mental flag and watched him very carefully on that adventure/date thing because often the men who try to broadcast themselves as nice are at the jerk end of the spectrum. It was just a yellow flag though - it might have been a red one except I already had a feel for how his mind worked. And, as it turned out, what he meant by "nice guy" was "I'm not going get you alone and then try and get inside your pants, not now and not ever." [crazy]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 26, 2009 13:45      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So, is every 'unlucky in love' woman who's ever whined to her pals about men a 'man-hater'?

The instant you bring the word "every" into it, you of course falsify it. You know that. Tsk tsk Druid.
Ok, careless wording on my part.

The point I was trying to make there was: judging people by the bitter and twisted things they say when they've had their hearts broken is... ...kinda harsh.

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Posts: 10669 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2009 01:32      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, see, here's the thing... it's not having your heart broken if you never actually had a relationship with the person. It's a disappointment.

And no matter how much you* want to have a relationship with someone, you aren't actually entitled to a relationship them. And being angry and bitter toward women in general because you didn't get what you wanted a) puts off the women (at least the ones with any common sense) that might have been interested and b) isn't actually very nice behavior.

There is actually a difference in having a relationship with problems and having problems getting a relationship.

Though in either case, if you see it happening a lot...

 -


*Generic you, not Druid in specific, since TFD (apart from his human weakness in succumbing to the occasional troll-baiting temptation) seems an exemplary kind of guy.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2009 09:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That and he got married and had Druidlings, which suggests that there was at least one woman not entirely put off by him. [Wink]

Relationships are complicated. There's jerks putting on a nice guy performance who can't get any women because he's expecting them to pay for his devotion with sex and that doesn't work. The majority of women out there aren't into transactional sex and those that are are more interested in something material. These jerks then perpetuate the myth that women don't want nice guys.

Then there're women who pick bad partners. Consistently. It's like instead of choosing the men they honestly know would be right for them they're choosing men everyone else is saying would be right for them, or they don't even know what right for them is, so they whine and complain and put forth the myth all men are scum. Or maybe they just got burned real bad and are afraid of that mistake happening again.

That's not even getting into the aftermath of relationships that turn abusive, though I will say this: the guy or girl on the abused end of an abusive relationship is not crying on the shoulder of a friend of the opposite gender. That guy or girl isn't going to be saying much of anything, because they're scared and likely as not isolated (it's weird; when a relationship gets that bad, it's like your tongue binds and you can't say the words). And they're especially unlikely to confide in someone of the opposite gender because that's, to them, even more dangerous.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2009 11:04      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Relationships are complicated.

Though I agree with everything you said, I so fervently agreed with this particular statement that I felt it bore repeating. I think "complicated" is the most correct and succinct way to sum up every relationship.

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get rich and you still die"


Posts: 2331 | From: Southwest Michigan, USA | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted June 28, 2009 03:19      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The majority of women out there aren't into transactional sex and those that are are more interested in something material.

I think it's not just a transactional view of sex. It's a transactional view of emotions.

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Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 28, 2009 04:29      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
TFD... seems an exemplary kind of guy.

Awww, you said something nice about me.

Um, does that mean I owe you something in return? [evil]

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted June 28, 2009 09:20      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
These "Nice Guys" blame the women for the failed relationships because they to not believe that they themselves could possibly have done anything wrong. Rather than recognize that they as the "Nice Guy" missed the opportunity, they turn it around and blame the woman for supposedly missing out. Mr. "Nice Guy" believes he could never possibly have been the one to make a mistake. When he talks about changing his behavior, it's not because he did something wrong before, but only to adapt to the woman's "wrong" expectations.

Avoiding responsibility for mistakes is classic jerk behavior, in women or men. We all hate to be blamed for screwing up, but most will hopefully learn to recognize their mistakes and improve themselves. These kinds of people never do.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted June 28, 2009 17:23      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm not entirely sure if there are many general lessons to be learned from this as, though we do occasionally hear from guys who feel bitter at their lack of romantic success, the fsckwit that is the source of all this is a thankfully rare type. He has his head stuck so far up his arse, that he does not realise how vain, self regarding, and just plain unattractive his whinge sounds. Who male or female would want to spend any time at all with such a loser? He sounds as though he is emotionally stuck in that completely self absorbed phase of early adolescence, and I'd bet money that, at the time of writing, he was still living at home being looked after by his mother.

I do believe that there are still many unresolved issues about male identity in our more equal, and more feminised society, but I really don't think that guy represents, even in an extreme form, any widely held attitudes.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted June 29, 2009 03:14      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
______________________________ Here I Go ______

____ Since we are part of the animal kingdom maybe some of these traits still show through.

____ Pack animals, Wolves and Coyotes are ruled by the Alpha Males and Females, the most Alpha of the pack is leader. Any lessor female will not even come into heat. The alpha male may or may not be the leader, he will however have rights to the alpha female.

____ White tail deer. The Alpha male will collect a herd of females that follow him until they go into rut and he will breed as many as possible. This insures that the strongest and fittest are leading the blood line.

____ So are we as humans hard wired to seek out the Alpha for survival of the fittest? Or at times do we appear to acting as an Animal when in the mood to breed.

____ Disclaimer, choosing a mate for life may not be the same as finding a breeding partner.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5836 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged


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