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Topic: Tax cuts for the rich vs tax cuts for the middle class
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DoctorWho
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posted December 21, 2011 19:26
Don't you think it would be better if the Senate had just approved the extension for the whole of next year rather than two months and make them revisit the issue again? That is after all what this is about. The Republicans do want the cut. They just want it for the whole year which makes perfect sense to me and anybody else who knows anything about business accounting.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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Xanthine
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posted December 21, 2011 19:52
If the GOP really wanted to extend the cut they'd've done it by now. They wouldn't have tried to tack unrelated bullshit onto the bill. But they can keep shooting themselves in the foot over this. It'll be fun watching them spin this as we approach election season. Really, I don't mind.
Actually, that's not true. I do mind. Since I don't own a home, have kids, or buy whatever new car is getting the tax break this year, the payroll tax cut is the only break I get. But I'm used to getting ass-fscked by the people in charge. I just wish they'd be honest enough to admit that that's what they're doing to 99 % of us, y'know?
And spare me bullshit about "job creators". The tax burden on the rich is below what it was during the 90's and below what it was during the Baby Boom, but unemployment and underemployment remain hideous and wages for the middle class are stagnant. They're not not creating jobs because of taxes. They just don't want to because paying salaries cuts profit margins and that would reduce their bonuses.
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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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GrumpySteen
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posted December 21, 2011 20:03
DoctorWho wrote:
Don't you think it would be better if the Senate had just approved the extension for the whole of next year rather than two months and make them revisit the issue again? That is after all what this is about. The Republicans do want the cut. They just want it for the whole year
That would sound great if the Democrats hadn't spent the last few months pushing for a full year extension which the Republicans wouldn't agree to.
The Democrats introduced the two month bill in order to extend the break long enough for Congress to get back in session and have time to work out a year long extension.
Oh, sorry. You seem to have believed it when the Republicans said they were only killing the two month extension because they favored a year long one. Sorry to burst your bubble.
makes perfect sense to me and anybody else who knows anything about business accounting.
Actually, anybody that knows anything about business accounting would realize what an incredible pain in the ass it's going to be to change the tax rate on 160 million people for a few months and then change it back (assuming that anything gets worked out next year, which I'm fairly sure will not happen). This will actually cost businesses money as well as the middle class.
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DoctorWho
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posted December 21, 2011 20:09
... and the House passed their version of the bill before the Senate passed what is being debated now. Both of which are nearly identical save for the time period of the tax cut. So if the Dems want the full year extension as you say then why not just pass the House bill. Oh that's right because it's politics*. Really both sides are messed up and it's a power play on both sides parts.
*politics comes from two words. Poly meaning many and tics. Those little blood sucking insects.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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Xanthine
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posted December 21, 2011 20:12
weird dp
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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists
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DoctorWho
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posted December 21, 2011 22:36
Here is an article that is a bit more informative about this issue. My take on the whole thing - I personally don't make alot of money so any break is great. However, I think that cutting the funding to social security and medicare is not really a good idea. That's the problem with me and politics. Both sides want credit for a "tax cut" but it's at the cost of reducing funding to a program that is needed by many people. To me that is just deceptive on all their parts. The occupiers should all be in Washington D.C. protesting the government because it's the career politicians who are playing with the lives of common men.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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Xanthine
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posted December 21, 2011 23:08
Well, first they were going to raise taxes on millionaires to pay for the payroll tax cut. But then their masters on Wall Street called and they decided to pay for a middle and lower class tax cut by slashing middle and lower class benefits.
They love us that much.
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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists
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DoctorWho
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posted December 21, 2011 23:32
Really you think Wall Street is in charge? "Ask yourself the simple question: who has both the guns and the money, including the ability to print new money at zero cost? It's Washington, not the private banks."
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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GrumpySteen
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posted December 22, 2011 01:11
And who can extract billions from the government in nearly interest free loans and loan it back to the government at a higher rate? Banks!
It was better than printing their own money. They had the government print money for them and give it to them for free.
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TheMoMan
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posted December 22, 2011 07:46
____ Who elected Grover Norquist he holds no office. However many TEA BAGGERS signed a pledge to him that they would lower taxes, how ever here they are raising them.
____ It seems that once elected to serve inside the beltway people change, then they become the problem.
____ It is time to REPLACE THEM ALL.
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DoctorWho
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posted December 22, 2011 08:10
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
And who can extract billions from the government in nearly interest free loans and loan it back to the government at a higher rate? Banks!
It was better than printing their own money. They had the government print money for them and give it to them for free.
And what do they do with that money? That's called legal money laundering folks. Not saying the banks are not corrupt but it's the government who created the rules to this game.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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GrumpySteen
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posted December 22, 2011 16:20
That kinda brings us back to my original point...
Our government is beholden to the wealthy. They'll fight and risk bankrupting the country to extend tax cuts for the rich. For the middle class, however, they not only won't fight to extend a tax break, they'll actively fight against it and sabotage any attempt to get it passed.
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Worst. Celibate. Ever.
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DoctorWho
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posted December 22, 2011 19:56
That kinda brings us back to my original point...
The original point...
quote:
Isn't it funny how, just last July, the Republicans* were willing to risk bankrupting the US in order to extend tax cuts for the rich, yet today they won't even listen to the idea of extending tax cuts to the middle class?
Looks to me more as though you were just blaming the Republicans. While I agree that they are part of the problem, I disagree that the focus should be on them. The Democrats are just as corrupt and are equally at fault for the mess this country is in.
* Emphasis mine
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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DoctorWho
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posted December 22, 2011 20:03
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ Who elected Grover Norquist he holds no office. However many TEA BAGGERS signed a pledge to him that they would lower taxes, how ever here they are raising them.
____ It seems that once elected to serve inside the beltway people change, then they become the problem.
____ It is time to REPLACE THEM ALL.
Amen Mo. We desperately need term limits for congress.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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GrumpySteen
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posted December 22, 2011 20:46
Show me the list of Democrats who walked out rather than voting and I'll extend the blame for this particular fiasco to them.
While you're at it, show the the list of Democrats who helped delay the debit ceiling raise in order to force the extension of tax breaks for the wealthy.
My point is the hypocrisy of it. The Republicans fought like hell for the wealthy sector's tax break extension, now they're fighting like hell to prevent the middle class from having their tax break extended. I can't say the same for the Democrats and neither can you because they aren't the ones fighting against it.
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Worst. Celibate. Ever.
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DoctorWho
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posted December 22, 2011 21:14
As I stated earlier, the House bill passed first. The only difference between that one and the Senate bill is that the "tax cut" was for a whole year instead of two months. If your precious Democrats were so interested in giving the middle class a tax cut they would have passed it and not just put this two month bill out so that they would have to revisit it again. No the truth is the Democrats are more interested in taking credit rather than the good of the common man. Which in my opinion would have been to let the tax break expire or as an alternative, do what I suggested to my representative and give people the ability to opt out of the system with the knowledge that for as long as they do it they will be pushing back their retirement age. That way those who want to rely on the government could contribute and those who did not would have some extra money to fund their own retirement.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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The Famous Druid
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posted December 22, 2011 23:02
View from the outside: Merkins are crazy.
Uncle Sam is running up debt at the rate of $100 billion per month, (and was doing so under the previous administration, so no partisan cheap shots please) and all the talk in merkinistani politics is how best to deliver tax cuts.
Sheer.
Fscking.
Madness.
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DoctorWho
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posted December 22, 2011 23:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
View from the outside: Merkins are crazy.
Uncle Sam is running up debt at the rate of $100 billion per month, (and was doing so under the previous administration, so no partisan cheap shots please) and all the talk in merkinistani politics is how best to deliver tax cuts.
Sheer.
Fscking.
Madness.
TFD to me arguing for either party is like arguing the difference between arsenic and antimony. Get enough of either one in your system and you are poisoned.
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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia
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zesovietrussian
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posted December 22, 2011 23:38
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
And who can extract billions from the government in nearly interest free loans and loan it back to the government at a higher rate? Banks!
It was better than printing their own money. They had the government print money for them and give it to them for free.
Unless I'm missing something, those holdings were a part of assets under management, and I highly doubt investors would be too happy if a bank pays its debts using their money.
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dragonman97
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posted December 23, 2011 00:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
View from the outside: Merkins are crazy.
Uncle Sam is running up debt at the rate of $100 billion per month, (and was doing so under the previous administration, so no partisan cheap shots please) and all the talk in merkinistani politics is how best to deliver tax cuts.
Sheer.
Fscking.
Madness.
Just a nit to pick on this -- I can certainly see that view, and I might more readily share it if the discussion was the extension of the Bush tax cuts. However, these cuts decrease the tax drawn from employee's paychecks for *everyone*, and it's seen as a bit of relief for people in a hard economy w/rising prices. Taxing people evermore at a time like this would be like rubbing salt in a wound. It might also be worth noting that it's not a substantial amount - it changes a withholding from 6% to ~3% (if memory serves), and I thin the discussion is to change the cut to 4%. (Specifically this covers 'Social Security' - our already pitiful attempt at a safety net that's going to be threadbare by the time I can collect. :/)
P.S. These tax cuts aren't supposed to be free - there are different surcharges/taxes and/or budget cuts proposed to compensate. If this wasn't being done...well, we'd be Greece. (Sorry, Greece!)
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The Famous Druid
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posted December 23, 2011 01:28
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
If this wasn't being done...well, we'd be Greece. (Sorry, Greece!)
With federal debt over 100% of GDP, and a deficit over 10% of GDP, that sound you hear is the bouzouki players tuning up.
Have a look at this graph. American debt today is about the same as Greek debt in 2007.
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TheMoMan
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posted December 23, 2011 08:21
____ Well during my life time, 1946 to the present. Look at these graphs, During James E Carters admin. most of the debt was paid off, then Ronald Reagon came to office. During William J. Clintons it came down, then it went up again, who was president then?
US Federal Debt by
Year.
____ Yep them tax and spend liberals sure hurt the economy. Don't get me started on them TeaBaggers. Compared to what is happening the Bowles Simpson plan looks good, and I dislike it.
More liberal propaganda
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GrumpySteen
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posted December 23, 2011 11:18
DoctorWho wrote:
your precious Democrats
Go back and re-read what I wrote. At no point have I said anything about the Democrats other than that they introduced these bills. That is a statement of fact and it's easily verifiable.
I have not said one thing to suggest that the Democrats aren't as corrupt as the Republicans and I would very much appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth. This sort of behavior is why discussions like this turn into flame wars so often.
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TheMoMan
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posted December 23, 2011 11:57
____ As far as I know there are only two exclusions to FICA
A: Railroad workers they have their own program.
B:The Amish again they have their own program.
____ Why is there an upper limit to contributions to FICA?
____ Are ALL Politicians SHAPE CHANGERS, or Camelions ??
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