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Author Topic: Fahrenhype 9/11
ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted October 31, 2004 20:43      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yes, that's "Fahren - HYPE 9/11". This movie is a rebuttal to Michael Moore's movie, and it's available as a DVD rental in some stores. It includes Ron Silver, Zell Miller, Ed Koch, and many others.

In the beginning there is a clip of Michael Moore speaking:
quote:
There is no terrorist threat, there is no terrorist threat,
yes we've been attacked by terrorists, but there is no terrorist threat....

If you really don't agree with his statement, you will probably find the movie to be very informative.

If you don't see the movie (and even if you do), you may want to read the article below:

Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11 by Dave Kopel
http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm

If you're willing to visit a library, try "Losing Bin Laden: How Bill Clinton's Failures Unleashed Global Terror" by Richard Miniter.
(This book changed my opinion of Bill Clinton from "Very Strong Dislike" to "Worst President: Inaction Resulted in 9/11 Attacks.")

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted October 31, 2004 21:16      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Or better yet read this balanced review by Jim Emerson at the Chicago Sun-Times. The fact that this movie features nut jobs like Ann Coulter and Zell Miller says a lot about this movie and its supporters.

Zell Miller- Senator from Georgia that said on MSNBC's Hardball that he would like to challenge host Chris Matthews to a duel.

Ann Coulter- conservative blond bimbo who got fired from the right-wing National Review for writing, "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."

And who the fsck is host of the movie Ron Silver ? He's the star of such great films as Timecop, Skeletons, Exposure, and The Wisher. [Roll Eyes]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 31, 2004 23:22      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Can't read PDFs on this machine, so I haven't had a chance to check out all 59 'deceits', but the author does mention one on the front page
quote:

The second, shortest part involves domestic issues and the USA PATRIOT Act. So far, I've identified only one clear falsehood in this segment (Rep. Porter Goss's toll-free number)

If this is indicitive of the other 58 'deceits', the page could be renamed 'a nit-pickers guide to Farenhiet 9/11'

[edit]
Oh, there's another 'deceit' they list on the front page, Moores denial of links between al Qaeda and Iraq.

This is not a deceit at all, there is no evidence of any cooperation between the two, even the Bush administration has admitted this.

[edit2]
Ok, I've had a look at the PDF, mostly nit-picks, as I suspected. A selected few (although I'm fairly sure 'selecting' constitutes 'deceit')

quote:

29. The new Afghani government has signed a protocol to build a pipeline, but it is an entirely different pipeline, in a location hundreds of miles distant from the Unocal proposal.

Oh, so the route has changed, that makes a world of difference (NOT!).

quote:

36- The FBI did not "know" about al Qaeda suspects who were attending flight training schools. The information was never passed above the level of one field office.

In what way does this qualify as 'deceit' by Moore?
The FBI knew.

quote:

Ashcroft did not cut overall counter-terrorism funding. He only proposed a one-year cut in a particular program that already had two years of unspent money.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is the same program the Republicans have included in the list of Kerry voting to cut funding to military and intelligence budgets.

So, according to the Bush administration, it's a cut.


quote:
In addition, Saddam ordered assassination attempts against former President Bush and against U.S. diplomats in the Philippines.
This doesn't seem to be rebutting anything Moore said, but they threw it in anyway.

quote:
45 - The only Iraqi casualties which Moore shows are civilians, although military casualties far outnumbered civilian.
The recent US study estimated 100,000 Iraqi dead, half of them women and children. So, unless the Iraqi military was largely staffed by women and children, it's impossible for military casualties to far outnumber civilian ones.

Point 47 - even the authors concede this is
quote:
Not a deceit
but they included it in their list of deceits anyway.
Oh, btw - since when is Australia a 'major country'?
We're nobodies, and proud of it.

quote:

51 - (partial) Moore claims that Bush proposed cutting combat soldiers’ pay by 1/3; but a soldier's pay and benefits is over $27,000 per year, even at low enlisted grades.

Um, unless I'm missing something fairly fundamental, there's nothing here that discredits Moores statement.

point 59 - mere arm-waving, there's no claim of any 'deceit' by Moore that I can find.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted October 31, 2004 23:48      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The one I liked is this one
quote:

Fahrenheit stitches together some scattered lines from the screenplay of 1984, written by Ralph Gilbert Bettison and William Templeton. Moore implies that the words are those of George Orwell, although the quotes do not come from George Orwell's novel 1984. The screenplay depicts a totalitarian state perpetually at war, and does accurately capture many of the points made in Orwell's book. As Moore quotes "Orwell" (actually, Bettison and Templeton): "The war is not meant to be won, but it is meant to be continuous...A hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance... The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or east Asia but to keep the very structure of society intact." The real purpose of war as "to keep the very structure of society intact." Fahrenheit applies "Orwell’s" words to the United States of today.

So, I would summarise that as "Moore used concepts from the work 1984, and made it sound like the words were direct quotes, when they weren't". All of those concepts are in the work, so what's the point of nitpicking over whether it's a direct quote or not? [Roll Eyes]

Then again, would you trust someone whose solution to gunmen holding up schools is to ensure teachers carry guns

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 03:33      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
So, I would summarise that as "Moore used concepts from the work 1984, and made it sound like the words were direct quotes, when they weren't". All of those concepts are in the work, so what's the point of nitpicking over whether it's a direct quote or not? [Roll Eyes]

But if you follow this link from the farenhype site, you'll find that most of the quotes are actually from the book.

It seems the extent of Moores 'deception' is to present the quotes in a different order than they appeared in the book, and occasionally use the abbreviated film version of Orwells sometimes overly-wordy text.

I am shocked and disappointed that a filmmaker would trim a few words for brevity.

/me wanders off to burn an effigy of Mr Moore in protest.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 05:11      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:


And who the fsck is host of the movie Ron Silver ? He's the star of such great films as Timecop, Skeletons, Exposure, and The Wisher. [Roll Eyes]

He's the step brother of restaraunt mogul "Long" John Silver.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted November 01, 2004 08:00      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
The recent US study estimated 100,000 Iraqi dead, half of them women and children. So, unless the Iraqi military was largely staffed by women and children, it's impossible for military casualties to far outnumber civilian ones.

Please quit making up numbers..... I'm going to assume that http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is "Anti-War."

Their "Iraqi Body Count" is 14,219 minimum, 16,352 maximum.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 08:22      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Er, I saw that 100000 figure on the front page of Yahoo! a couple days ago. They uses Biased sources like AP and Reuters though. [Razz]

Ann Coulter scares me.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 08:39      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've noticed some minor discrepancies in some of Michael Moore's work, but I'd never go as far as to say he's a quack, or full of crap, or all that other junk I've heard some right-wing nutjobs call him.

I believe his heart is in the right place, and he's just trying to cast a little light into the dark world that is George W Bush's pea-sized brain.

Even if you take all of those points at FACE VALUE. Consider them 100% true and pretend they weren't even in the movie in the first place, I betcha you'd still have one helluva lot of matter in the movie to deal with.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 10:06      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I haven't seen the origional movie (yet) or the Fahren - HYPE 9/11 remake. I can't be bothered to read the biased/mindless link that ASM posted either.

The bottom line:


Moore may be deceitful in the movie, and I'm not saying he is or isn't because I have actually seen the movie. His deceit, at most, makes him guilty of getting the masses talking about the war, the US administration etc.

Bush on the otherhand is more than deceitful, he is a baldfaced liar and a fscking murderer. If you elect him again I have a feeling you will find out what terror really is...and it will pale in comparision to 9-11

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csk

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 11:06      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Ann Coulter scares me.

The last time she was mentioned on fark, the general consensus there was that no woman born a woman has an Adam's apple like she has.

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6 weeks to go!

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 12:15      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Michael Moore is a polemicist, not a news reporter. He spins theories, stories and suppositions. It would be very surprising if his work did not contain inaccuracies, distortions, and misrepresentations. Only a fool would buy everything he says as gospel truth, but his films are still thought provoking, and ask questions that make the current administration feel most uncomfortable. So there is probably something there.

What I find incredible though, is that ASM who sucks up Fox News and other Neocon right wing propaganda like it was his mother's milk, is upset about exactly how truthful Michael Moore is.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 12:25      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
The recent US study estimated 100,000 Iraqi dead, half of them women and children. So, unless the Iraqi military was largely staffed by women and children, it's impossible for military casualties to far outnumber civilian ones.

Please quit making up numbers.....
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/10/29/1099028208196.html

I think the site's registration only these days, so here's the first few paragraphs
quote:

About 100,000 Iraqi civilians - half of them women and children - have died in Iraq since the invasion, mostly as a result of air strikes by coalition forces, according to the first reliable study of the death toll from Iraqi and US public health experts.

The estimated death toll was extrapolated from a survey of nearly 1000 households in randomly selected locations throughout the country.

The study, published in the British medical journal, the Lancet, concludes that: "Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces accounted for most of the violent deaths."

The research, led by Dr Les Roberts, was carried out by the Centre for International Emergency Disaster and Refugee Studies, Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore and New York's Columbia University's School of Nursing.



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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 13:00      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I heard/read about that report also. It makes you wonder about the real human cost over there.

1121 US dead 8150 causualties. Ratio approx 1:8


100,000 Iraqi dead would mean 800,000 Iraqi casualties

ASM goes on and on about Saddams genocide....well, it makes one wonder what we are looking at in Iraq now at the hands of Bush.

I'd like to see a break down on how much was spent in the middle east hunting bin Laden vs how much has been spent in Iraq 'making it free' [Roll Eyes] I'm pretty sure you'd see where Bush's priorities are based on the cash he has spent.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 13:09      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD, stop posting those biased, leftie-pinko sources. Lancet my ass. Everyone knows that [Lancet is a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party, which we all know to be sympathetic to terrorism. After all, liberals cheered when the towers came down and don't foget they also suck the blood of small children...or was that Jews? Oops, sorry, my bad.
/me removes her tongue from her cheek

People, Lancet is a British medical journal on the par with The New England Journal of Medicine, its American sister. These journals are peer-reviewd, non-political, notoriously difficult to publish in, and very very widely circulated - what Nature and Science are to the natural sciences these journals are to medicine. Top of the line, authoritative, if you're a doctor and you get your stuff into something like Lancet, your career is going very well indeed. Think about that before you dismiss the Iraqi body count as crap.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 13:51      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
TFD, stop posting those biased, leftie-pinko sources. Lancet my ass. Everyone knows that [Lancet is a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party, which we all know to be sympathetic to terrorism. After all, liberals cheered when the towers came down and don't foget they also suck the blood of small children...or was that Jews?

Nice try Xanthine, but if you're trying to trick me into adding a

Xanthine == ASM

entry in my diagram of 'The Collective', you'll have to be far more incoherent than that.

And don't forget the random bolding, paragraph numbers, and links to irrelevant articles.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 13:56      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Don't go scaring me like that, TFD. Xanthine's a member of the collective, as you know, and I suddenly thought you were going to say ASM was as well! I don't want a neocon alternate personality [Wink]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 14:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
Don't go scaring me like that, TFD. Xanthine's a member of the collective, as you know, and I suddenly thought you were going to say ASM was as well!

I couldn't bring myself to say such a thing, even in jest [Wink]

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 14:13      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD: points duly noted. I sHall Try harder next timE.

I was actually attempting to lampoon the entire right wing tinfoil hat crowd, not ASM, though he may fit in that category.

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sosumi
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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 14:21      Profile for sosumi   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
download fahrenheit 9/11 here
(with Michael Moore's blessing)
there are several different file versions, 40 mbs and up.
download goes offline 11/2

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rjung
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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 16:48      Profile for rjung   Author's Homepage         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm surprised nobody has posted this already...

Dave Kopel's "59 Deceits of Fahrenheit 9/11" has been thoroughly spanked months ago as the embarassingly lame "rebuttal" that it is:

Anthony Wade spanks Dave Kopel
Anton Sirius spanks Dave Kopel some more

I'd recommend both for ASM65816 -- but then, someone who thinks the attacks of 9/11/2001 should be blamed on Bill Clinton (despite Clinton's extensive anti-terrorism efforts against Bin Laden) probably needs more convincing than I can provide...

--R.J.

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 17:13      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm really not interested in seeing something that will try to discredit Fahrenheit 9/11 because, frankly, I didn't think it was all that awesome of a movie. For the record, I am voting for Kerry and knew that before I saw the film. I came away from watching it with no actual new knowledge, save the fact that Michael Moore is an ass who loves the sound of his own voice. He presented opinions and supposition as his conclusions and was emotionally manipulative the entire time. And he presented innocuous facts as though they were proof of dealing with the devil. Example: Bush Sr. gets CIA reports. He admits in the film that that is the right of any ex-president. So why is it so bad that he exercises that right? He says that very few presidents exercise that right, but how many are still alive? Clinton, Bush Sr., Carter, and I think Ford. One president out of four doesn't strike me as that big of a deal. /rant

Go out and vote tomorrow, everyone. We geeks have to save the world. :Superman: [thumbsup]

Edit: Welcome rjung, enjoy our posts. You know what? I actually bought a shirt from your web site a couple of years ago. My husband loves the Happy Fun Ball shirt. I might have to get him another one since it's gotten so faded. [Big Grin]

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 23:07      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I - 100,000 Dead

Some of you will view this as a classic example of:
1. State Your Experiment
2. Reach Your Conclusion
3. Gather (*cough* Fabricate) Data

Since this came from a "Household Survey" there may be some bias:
quote:
A couple of survey results:
100% said Americans were responsible for (each) case of death.
0% said death occurred while attacking U.S. forces, or transporting heavy weapons (Insurgent Activities).

* Even though Saddam released (All) 100,000 criminals from the prisons, no deaths are attributed to murders, failed kidnappings, or armed robbery.

* "Insurgents" have threatened to kill anyone who cooperates with Americans. We have beheading videos and bombed police stations, but no statistics on those deaths.

* "Insurgents" have destroyed water mains and other infrastructure, and hijacked trucks carrying food and supplies to Iraqis, but they're not responsible for an increase in infant mortality.

* None of the Dead were "Insurgents"? *begin rant*
This proves the conspiracy! The Insurgents are actually a Republican Neo-con CIA army hand-picked by Bush! No wonder they were never killed! The U.S. military invasion was only a diversion so that over 1000 tons of high explosives could be seized for the Genocide of 25 million Iraqis! Once Bush pulls all U.S. troops out, no one will be able to prove that he controlled the "Insurgents" all along! *end rant*

(Sorry about accusing "you" of fabricating the 100,000 number.)

Some of you think that because the study blames the Americans for everything, it must be unbiased and true. The next part is for you.

Part II - A Bad Case of Acute Chronic Hypocrisy

I'm going to use your arguments.

1. Response to the above "study"
quote:
Originally posted by csk (Must Read Essay, Oct 11):
I'm sorry, that's speculation again. Evidence, please.

Double-Standard: A "household survey" and statistical manipulation? You treat this as if all 100,000 (estimated) deaths were recorded on camera and followed by an autopsy.

2. The case of: "The FBI did not "know" about al Qaeda suspects who were attending flight training schools. The information was never passed above the level of one field office."
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
The FBI knew.

So you imply the FBI could do something.....

quote:
Originally posted by csk (Must Read Essay, Oct 12):
Excellent! Let us rush to set up the Pre Crime Units, for the sake of our Glorious Future!

quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid (Pawns of Destruction, July 28):
I'm not here as a defender of Muslim values, I'm here as a defender of Western values.
Rule of Law.
Fair trial.
That kind of thing.
...
Oh, so if you know someone's guilty, you can just dispense with all that tiresome bureaucratic red-tape of trials, evidence, and lawyers. Just get straight on with the hangin'

Double-Standard: Your saying this time they really did know, just like Pre-Crime, but any other time it would just be speculation.
Double-Standard: Rule of law - so in this case, even though the FBI could not show captured plans indicating use of an aircraft for a terrorist attack, no specified target for the attack, no date for the attack, and legally they could not use certain circumstantial evidence from other agencies, you expect them to say "we know they're terrorists so let's get warrants and wiretaps without worrying about all that tiresome bureaucratic red-tape." What's illegal about flying aircraft? If a member of al-Qaida gets a driver's license, why wouldn't that suggest use of a car bomb?

Part III - Michael Moore and "No Terrorist Threat"

National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
Statement of Steven Emerson, July 9, 2003

http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing3/witness_emerson.htm

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
What I find incredible though, is that ASM who sucks up Fox News and other Neocon right wing propaganda like it was his mother's milk, is upset about exactly how truthful Michael Moore is.

quote:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it. -- George Santayana
I am a firm believer in this quote. Science is based on observations and events being repeated again and again. My "experience" is that if someone says "I'm going to kill you" again and again, you better take it seriously. An assassin may only be one person, but sometimes that's enough to start a world war (WWI). Having hundreds or thousands of assassins, as is the case of terrorism, is not a threat to be ignored. You may be able to duck a bullet once, maybe twice, maybe a hundred times, but odds are that one will eventually end your life. This is not about "sucking up Neocon right wing propaganda."

In the case of terrorism, you might say "make them like you." If you have a child, who is teased or ridiculed, do you tell them "do what it takes to make them like you"? Do you do this even if this means injury to your child for the amusement of others? If reasoning with terrorists was possible, why not sit down with them and sign a treaty? Of course, history indicates that they have no respect for law since they are only accountable to "God."

I find it difficult to believe that "you" think "criminal behavior" can be stopped without force, or that "evil" ceases to be a threat.

Part IV - Bill Clinton

quote:
Originally posted by ooby:
Clinton lead the country into an unprecedented era of peace. There were a few struggles here and there, but overall, we all enjoyed Pax Americana, even you.
...
Clinton authorized the use of cruise missiles against terror camps in Afghanistan.

A few struggles?

  * Feb 1993: World Trade Center Bombed - Clinton has the FBI investigate, and after a few years puts some terrorists in jail. As one of the terrorists lamented, "if I had a bigger bomb I would have killed thousands."
  * Oct 1993: Somalia, troops killed.
  * Nov 1995: Saudi Arabia, car bomb kills 5 Americans.
* In 1995, Bin Laden lost his Saudi citizenship after he admitted his involvement in terrorist attacks in Riyadh and Dahran.
  * June 1996: Saudi Arabia, Air Force housing complex bombed.
  * ... 1996: Saddam attacks Kurds in Erbil. - Clinton has bombs dropped on Iraq ... hundreds of miles from Erbil, causing insignificant damage to Saddam's forces.
  * Nov 1997: Iraq Refuses to Allow UN Inspectors to Do Their Jobs, also Threatens to Shoot Down U-2 Spy Planes.
  * Feb 1998: Clinton threatens to bomb Iraq, but when the UN objects, he backs down.
  * May 1998: India Nuclear Test Detonations "Surprise" CIA. - CIA is "harshly criticized."
  * Aug 1998: Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania are bombed. - Two weeks later, Clinton bombs Afghanistan and Sudan, causing severe damage to aspirin factory and "an aging camel." (I wonder if it's time to improve CIA intelligence gathering? Probably not.)
* In 1998, bin Laden was a co-signatory with Ayman Zawahiri (formerly of Egyptian Islamic Jihad) to a fatwa, or religious/legal edict, put out in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, declaring, "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies – civilians and military – is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it..."
  * Oct 2000: USS Cole Attacked.

Clinton's biggest mistake was essentially relying almost entirely on defensive methods, as opposed to stopping the problem at the source. I find Clinton's use of cruise missiles in Afghanistan to be suspicious......

quote:
On Aug. 20, 1998, three days after half-confessing to lying about Monica Lewinsky and the day she testified before a federal grand jury, former President Clinton declared bin Laden the world's most dangerous terrorist and retaliated against him for blowing up two U.S. embassies in Africa months earlier.
...
Approximately 60 Tomahawks were launched against six camps near Khost, Afghanistan.

Why would Clinton launch missiles at six different camps?

If he actually had information on where bin Laden was located, wouldn't he strike that one target (camp)?

Who told them that bin Laden had only been missed by "an hour"?

(In all likelihood, Clinton didn't know a damn thing about where bin Laden was, except that he was in Afghanistan.)

Obviously the attack did no harm to bin Laden, and I'm inclined to believe Bill was just covering his _ss:
1. By claiming bin Laden had "almost" been killed.
2. To keep Monica from being front page news.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
csk

Member # 1941

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 23:14      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was going to post a cogent, intelligent rebuttal, but decided there was no point.

Blow it out your arse, ASM.

--------------------
6 weeks to go!

Posts: 4455 | From: Sydney, Australia | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

Gold Hearted SuperFan!
Member # 1769

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Icon 1 posted November 01, 2004 23:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Part I - 100,000 Dead

Quick summary: 2 American University health deparmnents conducted a detailed study, it's methodology was peer reviewed and accepted for publication by a prestigious scientific journal.

But ASM knows better because .... well He Just Does !

quote:
Part II - A Bad Case of Acute Chronic Hypocrisy
Summary: ASMs totally unfounded speculation outranks a detailed statistical survey.
No explanation is needed, It Just Does !

quote:
2. The case of: "The FBI did not "know" about al Qaeda suspects who were attending flight training schools. The information was never passed above the level of one field office."
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
The FBI knew.

So you imply the FBI could do something.....
I imply nothing.
I state the article you linked to was wrong to list this as a 'deceit'.
Moore was correct.
The FBI did know.
There was no 'deceit' on Moores part.


quote:
quote:
Originally posted by csk (Must Read Essay, Oct 12):
Excellent! Let us rush to set up the Pre Crime Units, for the sake of our Glorious Future!

quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid (Pawns of Destruction, July 28):
I'm not here as a defender of Muslim values, I'm here as a defender of Western values.
Rule of Law.
Fair trial.
That kind of thing.
...
Oh, so if you know someone's guilty, you can just dispense with all that tiresome bureaucratic red-tape of trials, evidence, and lawyers. Just get straight on with the hangin'

(snip - ASMs rant deleted)

Summary: .....
Um ....
Ok, I give up, I haven't the faintest clue what point ASM was making here.


I could go on and on, but what's the point?
There comes a time when you just have to face facts and accept that some people are beyond redemption (there's my Calvanist background again).

As a wise man once said:

"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and annoys the pig"

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10702 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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