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Author Topic: Who gained the most from the debate?
Tech Angel
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Icon 5 posted September 30, 2004 21:03      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The obvious go-to question as of 10:31 PM EDT tonight: who "won" (or benefitted most from) tonight's U.S. Presidential debate?

I thought Kerry held his own, not making any obvious gaffes and at least alleviated fears some people might have had that this man might not be "Presidential" material. I thought he also did a fair job of delineating where his and Bush's views on Iraq part company: the ultimate goals are fundamentally the same, but the approach to achieve these is very different. I think he missed a number of opportunities to give a pointed response which might have further differentiated his views.

To me, the President seemed a bit unfocused in many of his responses, answering too generally with facts related to the question but not necessarily answering the question. He also just kept coming back to the same tired lines about how we're marching toward freedom/victory/success/whatever as if the more he repeats these things, the more true they will be. But I was impressed toward the end during the discussion about multilateral vs. bilateral talks with North Korea -- he seemed to know a lot more about what he was talking about and backed up his convictions well.

I can't say who "won" the debate, but I think Sen. Kerry gained a lot more from the event in the eyes of undecided voters.

~ TA

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We must be the change we want to see in the world. -Mahatma Ghandi

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 30, 2004 21:24      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Frown] I missed it, I will have to catch the high/low lights on the news.

I still think the shrub will win the election.....the economy will continue to tailspin and America will be a less safe place to live in.

In 2008 the Dems will sweep to power for 15 - 20 years. Let us all hope the rest of the world is still around to enjoy that.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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Swiss Mercenary

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 02:53      Profile for Swiss Mercenary     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
In 2008 the Dems will sweep to power for 15 - 20 years. Let us all hope the rest of the world is still around to enjoy that.

Nah, watch Dubya change the Constitution so that he can have unlimited terms and set up a Republican dictatorship. [Eek!]

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Evil AI at work.
I am Swiss of Borg. Holes are irrelevant, cheese will be assimilated!

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greycat

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 05:10      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They both held their ground very well, I thought. Of course, the whole thing was planned out from the beginning, there was just one topic, and neither of them has a radical approach to it. So there wasn't a lot for them to disagree on, really.

I really liked Kerry's speaking style and body language. He's very clear and direct. Watch how his hands make little chopping motions when he dissects a problem and presents his answer to it.

Bush came across as a lot more articulate than most people give him credit for, but he had a few moments where he was "stumped" by (or had to think about) a question for a couple seconds. When this happens, his face goes totally blank.

Funniest moment in the debate for me was when Kerry repeated nuclear proliferation twice in a row. It's as if he were rubbing in the fact the he can pronounce it correctly. (Bush kept saying nucular.)

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 05:19      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
He also just kept coming back to the same tired lines about how we're marching toward freedom/victory/success/whatever as if the more he repeats these things, the more true they will be.
"And it's hard work! It's hard, and there are some good people working hard to make it work!"

Like in Bedazzled: "Y'just wanna go out there, and do your best, and give 110%, and do good, and I think we went out there and did our best, and we gave 110% and we did good.

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MTB Babe
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Icon 2 posted October 01, 2004 06:30      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Bush was/is a total moron. I believe his answers were very inarticulate and danced around the questions instead of answering them. He kept focusing on Kerry's 'inconsistency' without backing up his accusation. His answers were rife with 'um's' and 'uhhh's'. I don't understand how anyone could vote for this numbskull. No offense.

If he wins I'm moving to Canada [Wink]

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 06:38      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I never realized how tech-savvy Democrats were. First Al Gore invents the internet and now John Kerry is responsible for the flip-flop? (Or maybe this is a new 'LogicGate' scandal? [shake head] )
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spungo
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 06:39      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MTB Babe:
If he wins I'm moving to Canada [Wink]

Why not move to the UK? We have a 'rear of the year' award, you know. [Wink]

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Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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ripcrd6
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 07:04      Profile for ripcrd6   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Couple of points:
Jimmy Carter, who was a nuclear engineer, couldn't pronounce it correctly. It's a soutern accent problem. I can pronounce it correctly, will you elect me?

The chopping hand motions are a Clinton affectation. Gore did it too. I could care less about hand motions. You ever watch American Idol? See everyone doing the same hand things to draw the audience in? They get training on it, because it works on the weak minded. I find it manipulative. I had Persuasive Speech and Group Dynamics in college and they taught us these and other Jedi mind tricks.

The last president to sit for more than 2 terms was Roosevelt, a Democrat. http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/fdrbio.html
We now have rules limiting the president to 2 terms so that he doesn't gain too much power. I don't feel like looking up to see if it is a law or an amendment to the constitution. I do know that it would not be a simple task to change. There are other checks and balances that prevent a dictatorship, one of them is gun ownership by the citizenry.

Kerry sounded very confident in himself. Too confident. He seems to think he is some superhero that can accomplish in 4 years, what Clinton couldn't do in 8 and what took roughly 50 in Germany. The president is right that we will be in Iraq for 6-10 years, or at least in the area. There are some normal, kind people over there and they are being run over by the scumbags who think they have the god-given right to blow up those that don't believe as they do. Look into the Iraq Linux User Group if you want to find an example of the GOOD in Iraq. N. Korea has been a problem since the 50s and Kerry thinks he can solve it in 4 years. Yeah right. That cocky bastard will muck up the work of the current and previous 2 administrations. In the process he will get China pissed and all the other nations in the area that we are friendly with. He'd blow 6 alliances to make one with the guys no one likes. His cavalier attitude and flippant remarks make me worry that if he becomes president, we will be in more war than we are now.

If anybody is thinking draft, remember it was Democrat Charlie Rangel that started that idea floating and he wants it. Kerry also mentioned last night that he wants 2 new divisions and lots of military spending. He just wants to wait to approve the funding until it is good for him and not the soldiers. What a moron.

I could go on, but I can see there are a bunch of closed ears here already. /lurk mode on.

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Ripcrd6
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magefile
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 07:14      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you think that civilians have (or can obtain, even ignoring legal issues) enough weapons to overthrow the US gov't, I want some of what you're smoking.
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spungo
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 07:50      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ripcrd6:
The president is right that we will be in Iraq for 6-10 years...

Then why, pray tell, did the son-of-a-bitch smugly announce the end of the war way back in 2003, just weeks after the land invasion began? The only explanation is that the Whitehouse failed to foresee the ongoing insurgent threat that dogs their triumph. In other words, Bush had no f*cking clue how things would pan out - in which case he should have told Rumsfeld to shut the F*&k up when ol' Donnie gleefully jumped to his feet on 9/11, saying that this was their golden chance to move in on Iraq and secure those lucrative reconstruction contracts.
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Tech Angel
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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 09:08      Profile for Tech Angel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ripcrd6:
I could go on, but I can see there are a bunch of closed ears here already. /lurk mode on.

Not "closed ears", just predisposed to a certain point of view... no different than yourself, I gather. But then again, 4 of 5 voters this year feel the same way.

I just wish we had a better selection of viable candidates to rally behind -- not just the ones chosen for us by the two major political parties.

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We must be the change we want to see in the world. -Mahatma Ghandi

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TMBWITW,PB

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Icon 1 posted October 01, 2004 10:09      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The debate was really decided for me in the first few minutes when Bush said that "we must be constantly on the offensive." I don't want to go to war against every country in the world by the time we're done.

I did enjoy at the end of the debate when they were complimenting each other's service, family, and accomplishments. I got the feeling that they could almost be friends and they know not to take any of this personally because it's politics.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2004 01:57      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've been buzzing through the news sites and blogs trying to get a feel for how the debate was evaluated, but opinions are all over the map on this one.

Best consensus I can come up with is that this debate was probably a small win for Kerry...which means it was effectively a draw. (An actual draw would have been a net loss for Kerry.) He may stop his slide for a little while, and his supporters have been re-energized, but the essential dynamic hasn't changed. And pretty soon, I'm sure Kerry will be putting his other foot in his mouth, and shooting himself in it. (Overconfidence over his debate "win" may be a factor here.) Meanwhile, he's handed the Republicans a few choice lines they can use to attack him, whereas Bush didn't give much away.

The Veep debate on Tuesday should be good. I'm thinking that Cheney will just take apart the Breck Girl. Age before beauty! [Smile] (And remember, sometimes the Veep debates have produced the most memorable lines; consider Lloyd Bentsen's "you're no Jack Kennedy" line in 1988, and James Stockdale's "hearing aid" line in 1992.)

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Twinkle Toes
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Icon 13 posted October 03, 2004 04:06      Profile for Twinkle Toes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well I don't have a side in this. I have opinions, but if I were old enough to vote, I wouldn't.

While Kerry did support his rebuttals towards Bush's statements well, he still witheld information of specific plans he would enact in his presidency... He's always mentioning this 'plan' he has in his campaign commercials but never says anything about it. Another thing I didn't like was his concern for pulling the troops out of Iraq whether their problem of acting as an independent (strong), orderly country is fixed or not.

Though he did pause a lot, I thought Bush did a better job of speaking this time. But this could mean nothing, I suppose, if what greycat said about it being planned is true. Among other poor decisions, Bush sending practically all of the troops to Iraq instead of Afghanistan is the thing that bugs me the most about him, and... well, just see Fahrenheit 9/11 for the rest.

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Mmmmrreow!

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Twinkle Toes
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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2004 04:12      Profile for Twinkle Toes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, and about Kerry's hand gestures: I didn't really notice them (I can remember him doing that chopping motion a bit now), but I suppose it could very well be a Democrat thing. He also does the advancing-of-the-thumb thing that Clinton did.
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-ct-
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Icon 2 posted October 03, 2004 14:19      Profile for -ct-   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
need more convincing?

watch this

interesting at least...


http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/100104v1.wmv

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2004 14:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by -ct-:
need more convincing?

watch this

interesting at least...


http://media1.streamtoyou.com/rnc/100104v1.wmv

Sorry, I'm not seeing any flip-flops there.

For example, Kerry complains of the waste of $200 billion spent on the Iraq war.
He also says he wouldn't cut funding, he'd increase it to "whatever it takes to win"

This is not a flip-flop, this is simply saying, "This war was unnecessary, the resources could have been put to better use elsewhere, but now that we are in, let's not stuff it up by trying to do it on the cheap".

Frankly, I think he's barking up the wrong tree there. The USA could send 5 times as many troops, and they'd simply be providing 5 times as many targets to the resistance, but there's no flip-flop evident in the Kerry quotes on the video.

The same thing goes for his "no country will have a veto on our nations defence" vs "Bush should have behaved in a way that encouraged our allies to cooperate" statement. The first is a simple motherhood statement, no country would ever give another country such a veto. The second is an acknowledgement that Bush's "yer either with us or yer with the terrorists" bullshit has alienated many of the USAs traditional allies, and that a more cooperative approach would have been beneficial to US interests. No flip-flop there.

It seems to me that what the Republicans decry as Kerrys 'flip-flops' is simply a man with a 3-digit IQ who has the ability to see the complexity of the issues. 2-digit George sees everything in simple black-and-whites.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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-ct-
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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2004 14:42      Profile for -ct-   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
just an anti-kerry moment here: http://drudgereport.com/dnc57.htm

what they gonna come up with next? lol

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2004 16:22      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by -ct-:
just an anti-kerry moment here: http://drudgereport.com/dnc57.htm

what they gonna come up with next? lol

If you ask me, I'd call that a 'flip-flop' post...

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted October 03, 2004 17:15      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
-ct-

Don't you see the irony in the fact that you seem to support the right wing who is currently in power, but you admit to being unable to find gainful employment.

Why would you give a job to shrub, when he takes a job away from you?

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greycat

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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2004 05:24      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In other news, the probability of someone being a Bush supporter seems to be inversely proportional to his or her IQ. (There are a few exceptions, of course... that's why it's called a probability. I have to include that disclaimer so the Bush supporters will understand.)
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spungo
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2004 05:38      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But Cap'n - do you really think Kerry's a sharp-shooter enough to protect us against the evil over thar in Terrorstan? The West needs a straight-talker: a man with no name who rides into town with a rancher's swagger and a slick holster. Nobody but George "Let's head'em off at the Khyber pass" Bush can do what a man's gotta do. Why, he's like Gary Cooper, Josey Wales and the Duke all rolled into one. I can't see the Flip-Flop kid saying "Step out of that cave for a second, pilgrim", can you?
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greycat

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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2004 06:24      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
The Veep debate on Tuesday should be good.

The VP candidate debate is happening at Case Western Reserve University, in Cleveland, tomorrow night. CWRU campus is about a half hour walk from where I'm sitting right now (at work).

If it's at all possible, I'm going to join in the protest march (the anti-war, anti-imperialism one) that evening. The campus is basically closed off to traffic, but I think that if I just park in my normal spot here at work and walk over, I should be able to make it there intact. (Assuming, of course, that I don't get arrested along the way for speaking outside of the "free speech" zone.)

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted October 04, 2004 07:18      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was at the They Might Be Giants show thursday night and They pointed out that the debate was on and the show was sold out. They refrained from political commentary during the show except when they sang a song about a president who did so much but only was in office for one term. Also, they promoted the moveon cd.

Also, Jon Stewart pointed out that nobody votes for a vice president.

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