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Author Topic: Gun safety instructor shoots himslf...
Spiderman

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Icon 2 posted May 01, 2004 13:57      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/05/01/dea.shooting.ap/index.html

[shake head]

Edit: 300th post, for an average of 1 post every 2.6 days... [Smile]

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Gibbonboy
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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2004 16:09      Profile for Gibbonboy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's what you get for carrying a "safe" double action handgun. What the hell was he doing clearing his sidearm in a room full of kids anyway? That's why they make bullet traps, and put them in police stations and shooting ranges- to ensure that even if your weapon discharges, it does so in a safe manner. I've had handguns discharge due to a malfunction when I dropped the safety, they were shipped immediately back to the manufacturer, and I'll never buy that brand again.
What pisses me off most is that all the whiny left-wing freaks will use this as ammunition (pun intended) to further the BS campaign that guns are bad. The U.S. is saturated with millions of unregistered firearms, it is impossible to collect all of them. I would never personally surrender my weapons, even if I had to bury them to avoid detection.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2004 15:39      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Darwin in action!

You Americans please buy all the guns you can and please please shoot as many of each other as you can. I think your gun laws are just great.

For you. [Wink]

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2004 15:46      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gibbonboy:
That's what you get for carrying a "safe" double action handgun. What the hell was he doing clearing his sidearm in a room full of kids anyway? That's why they make bullet traps, and put them in police stations and shooting ranges- to ensure that even if your weapon discharges, it does so in a safe manner. I've had handguns discharge due to a malfunction when I dropped the safety, they were shipped immediately back to the manufacturer, and I'll never buy that brand again.
What pisses me off most is that all the whiny left-wing freaks will use this as ammunition (pun intended) to further the BS campaign that guns are bad. The U.S. is saturated with millions of unregistered firearms, it is impossible to collect all of them. I would never personally surrender my weapons, even if I had to bury them to avoid detection.

I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said:

Guns cause crime like fly's cause garbage.

I think that just about sums it up.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 02, 2004 16:46      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I saw a bumper sticker the other day that said:

Guns cause crime like fly's cause garbage.

I think that just about sums it up.

Disagree.

Guns amplify the basic asymmetry in the relationship between criminal and victim. They make crime safer, easier, and more tempting.

The problem is, the criminal knows when he/she is going out to commit a crime, so he/she goes prepared. The victim will usually be less prepared, even if carrying a gun, it won't always be ready to use.

If a mugger sticks a gun up your left nostril and demands money, reaching for your gun is likely to get you killed, and both parties know it. This makes the attacker feel secure, and therefor makes the attack much more likely. No other weapon carries that built-in sense of security, no matter how big a knife you're carrying, using it carries a risk, if your victim knows how to take care of himself you're in big trouble.

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 4 posted May 02, 2004 18:15      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What disheartens me more than anything else is the mere INVENTION of the gun itself. Now we have people that argue (and... I can kinda' see their point, although I don't agree with it) "I need a gun to protect myself from other guns."

WHY WHY WHY did we have to even invent the damn things in the first place? Why does anyone need a way to kill someone else, especially to kill someone else so quickly, effortlessly, and accurately?!?!

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people." Yeah, right, true, in a way. BUT WHY?! Why do people feel the need to kill other people?!!

I am disgusted by the human race and would like to resign my membership. I'm serious. [shake head]

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get rich and you still die"


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Lithandro
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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 03:48      Profile for Lithandro   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<Disclaimer> I dont like guns </disclaimer>

Jeremy Clarkson hosted a show called Inventions That Changed The World which have covered several items such as tv, telephone, jets etc. Including a program on guns and courtesy of the BBC Press Office page:

Jeremy reveals that successful attempts to create ever more lethal weapons have not only shaped the world but led directly or indirectly to all of the following: the industrial revolution; the production line; cowboy films; street lighting; the car exhaust pipe and the development of trauma medicine.

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But why is the rum gone?

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 15:51      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Without guns we would still be spending the majority of our time trying to make ourselves safe and fed ourselves. Thanks to firearms we enjoy safe neighborhoods and the internet.
Without Smith and Wesson we wouldn't have Proctor and Gamble.

I agree that thugs and hoodlums are despicable - just like the marauding bands of spear weilding raiders that sacked entire villages in europe before the invention of the gun.

Thank God I have a few guns to keep greedy, lazy theives from breaking in and taking that which I've worked hard for.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 20:11      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
For more information on guns and why they're a Good Thing, I recommend the following resources:

Kim du Toit - The Gun Thing
A Word To Women - An Open Letter by Mrs. du Toit (Kim du Toit's wife)
ESR's Gun Nut Page

No, I'm not myself a gun owner--yet. But, when I've accumulated some more money, I plan to take the appropriate training courses, acquire a weapon of my own, and even get a Colorado concealed-carry permit (thanks to the new "shall-issue" state law). Not because I want to shoot anything other than inanimate targets...but because I want to be a fully-empowered citizen, and I think the safety of my family is worth fighting for, if it comes to that.

So, as Kim would say:
Shoot safely, be prepared, and keep 'em in the X-ring.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 20:18      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
I think the safety of my family is worth fighting for

and you're willing to ignore all the evidence that your family would be far safer without a gun in the house ....
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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 20:26      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
I think the safety of my family is worth fighting for

and you're willing to ignore all the evidence that your family would be far safer without a gun in the house ....
umm,

/me carefully tiptoes into a potentially sensitive subject...

Evidence?

Safer?

*tiptoes carefully back out*

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 20:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiderman:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
I think the safety of my family is worth fighting for

and you're willing to ignore all the evidence that your family would be far safer without a gun in the house ....
umm,

/me carefully tiptoes into a potentially sensitive subject...

Evidence?

Safer?

*tiptoes carefully back out*

Don't have the links here at work, but from memory, an americans probability of being murdered is far higher (more than twice as high IIRC) if there's a gun in their household.

Basically, people buy a gun 'to protect their family' and end up shooting the missus in a fight over whos turn it is to take out the trash.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted May 03, 2004 23:03      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think all the gun owners watch too much TV. [Roll Eyes] Oh, there are lots of times I wish I had a gun, but in the end, I'm glad I didn't. [shake head] What I'm trying to say is: The world is not as dangerous as the media reports it to be. (Unless you live in Iraq).
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Gibbonboy
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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2004 03:07      Profile for Gibbonboy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The notion that you're "XX times more likely to be killed by a family member", or really any of the statements that having a gun in the house gives you leprosy or whatever are all patently false, based on bogus numbers and an utter lack of research. It's just been spouted as gospel so many times that people assume it's true. Most everyone I know has grown up with numerous firearms in their house, no one has been accidently or otherwise been shot by one of those. We learned to be safe around guns at an early age.
I don't watch very much TV, but I do shoot competitively every week. I am also a firearms instructor, certified to teach pistol and shotgun. I enjoy it, I am fanatical about safety, and it's entirely my own business and no one else's. Read the Pennsylvania State Constitution some time. We did it right- the statement is that the right to keep and bear arms "shall not be questioned", no militia qualification or unclear language.
Say what you will, guns will not go away, and stupid people are going to get ahold of them, just as stupid people get behind the wheel of a multi-ton vehicle while they're drunk. Not having guns will not make us any safer.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2004 05:04      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gibbonboy:
The notion that you're "XX times more likely to be killed by a family member", or really any of the statements that having a gun in the house gives you leprosy or whatever are all patently false, based on bogus numbers and an utter lack of research. It's just been spouted as gospel so many times that people assume it's true. Most everyone I know has grown up with numerous firearms in their house, no one has been accidently or otherwise been shot by one of those.

Yes, and I know a 98 year old who smokes a pack a day, so obviously smokings not bad for you, and the statistics are bogus.

As an American, you're (about) as likely to be stabbed, strangled, or beaten to death with a herring as I am, but you're 9.5 times as likely to be shot dead.

Enjoy the security gun ownership has brought you.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2004 06:13      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dunno why I'm getting involved, but probably due to the abuse of statistics in this thread. Americans have lots of guns, and kill each other with them lots. Canadians have the same proportion of guns to people, and do much less people killing with them. Some European country (Sweden or Austria I think) has armed every adult, and they have tiny people shooting numbers (that's numbers of people being shot, not dwarf homicide statistics). If you are going to use numbers in your arguments, please do it properly.

As for my stance on gun control, I think it should be fine for people to have guns if they can demonstrate that they are sane and competant.

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2004 07:38      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with Gibbonboy. It's not the guns that are the problem, it's stupid people. I was raised in a home with guns, which my Dad had for recreational and collecting purposes. We lived in New York City and not exactly in a safe neighborhood. Yet only once or twice do I recall ever seeing my Dad's firearms. They were definitely not taken out just for the heck of it. The ammo was kept separately from the guns, in a locked box. In my opinion, that's a pretty smart thing to do. There were no gun related injuries in our home, nor did I ever feel unsafe because of the gun being there. I don't think that's a coincidence.

In contrast, I have a friend who bought a gun to "protect" his family. They live in rural Louisiana, with no problems with break-ins, etc. Yet my friend keeps the gun loaded and in his bedroom. He's also recently lost a job because he insisted on carrying the gun - having it on his person violated company policy.
Somehow, despite the fact that he has a pretty elaborate trigger guard on the gun, I feel unsafe there.

And by the way, I have no personal qualms about carrying a gun myself, as long as it's appropriate to the situation. I very nearly became a NYC cop. Now if that's not dangerous and gun related, I don't know what is.

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MTB Babe
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Icon 2 posted May 04, 2004 08:23      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Haha! I bet that guy is going to hear about his accident for a long time to come.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2004 20:40      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Famous Druid: If you read some of the papers linked to from the pages I provided links for, you'll see that the situation isn't nearly as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. The statistic about gun owners being more likely to be murder victims, for instance, papers over the fact that most of those gun-owning murder victims have criminal records themselves, and hence the situation is not "goblin vs. victim," but rather "criminal vs. criminal."

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 04, 2004 21:24      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
The Famous Druid: If you read some of the papers linked to from the pages I provided links for, you'll see that the situation isn't nearly as cut-and-dried as you make it out to be. The statistic about gun owners being more likely to be murder victims, for instance, papers over the fact that most of those gun-owning murder victims have criminal records themselves, and hence the situation is not "goblin vs. victim," but rather "criminal vs. criminal."

While I found that assertion on a couple of the links, I found no hard figures to back it up. Still, it seems likely that this effect at least partly explains the increased likelihood of gun owners being murdered.

HOWEVER.....

This does not change the fact that a large proportion of murder victims are killed by family or sexual partners (or ex-partners). I've seen figures (sorry, don't have the link handy) that most female murder victims (around 2/3 from memory) are killed by 'intimates', which they defined to be partners or close family members.

When gun advocates talk about defending their family, they have the 'random stranger' attacker in mind, a fairly rare occurance. Sadly, the irate spouse is not so rare, and having a gun in the house in those situations does not enhance your families safety. Speaking as someone who's had to disarm a knife-wielding woman on a couple of occasions, (have I told you about my mad ex?) I'm quite glad there was no gun in my household at the time.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 05, 2004 03:31      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To me it just seems obvious that when two people are in disagreement that adding guns into the equation does not make a safe outcome more likely. Whether there could be any practical method of gun control in the US is however another matter.

What I do find puzzling is the romantic attachment you in the US have for guns, that is implicit in some of the posts here. For some of you it seems to be an essential part of what it means to be an American, which to an outsider is just bizarre. I know it's there in your constitution, but those were different times, and traditions only hold good if they make sense in society now. Is it some Mark Twainish lighting out for the frontier thing, or is it the movies? Either way to most foreigners (and me) it's just plain nuts.

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Lithandro
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Icon 1 posted May 05, 2004 04:43      Profile for Lithandro   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
[QB] To me it just seems obvious that when two people are in disagreement that adding guns into the equation does not make a safe outcome more likely.[QB]

Or, to put it in Blackadder terms (imagine instead of it being superblocs, but just two people):

quote:
Edmund: You see, Baldrick, in order to prevent war in Europe, two superblocs developed: us, the French and the Russians on one side, and the Germans and Austro-Hungary on the other. The idea was to have two vast opposing armies, each acting as the other's deterrent. That way there could never be a war.

Baldrick: But this is a sort of a war, isn't it, sir?

Edmund: Yes, that's right. You see, there was a tiny flaw in the plan.

George: What was that, sir?

Edmund: It was bollocks.


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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 05, 2004 20:16      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I guess if anybody knew how likely it was for certain people to get certain crimes commited against them it would be The Bureau of Justice Statistics.

I've looked through some of these tables and can't find a thing about people owning guns becoming the victims of shootings.

Maybe some of you can find these elusive but oft-quoted stats here...
Criminal Victimization statistics

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Too Cool To Quit
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Icon 1 posted May 05, 2004 20:34      Profile for Too Cool To Quit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
not to seem naive or anything... but...

I have to agree with Kris here... Why must we invent weapons to inflict harm upon other people?

It makes no sense... [Frown]

can't we all just get along? [Mad]

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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted May 05, 2004 21:08      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Software piracy is illegal, therefore let's ban computers"
"Speed kills, let's ban cars"
"Child porn is wrong, let's implement camera control"
"Steak knives can be used to murder someone, ban them"

These are utterly ridiculous arguments. Yeah I know, maybe I went too far with the comparisons but whatever [Wink]

Obviously, software piracy cannot happen without computers to facilitate it, Road rage related accidents/crimes cannot happen without cars and child pornography would not be possible without some method of obtaining photographs/videos.

The above list of quoted statements are completely pathetic and can be understandably laughed at.

I'm not drawing a direct analogy to gun control with these statements...just using them as fuel of sorts.

Criminals will continue to do as they please no matter what is done...ban anything you like, who cares? That's why they're called Criminals!

If I imagine myself as a criminal (something I don't generally make a habit of doing [Wink] ) I know I wouldn't feel particularly empowered to commit a crime knowing that my victim may be armed...not to mention the fact anyone else who might happen to be in the area may very well be armed also...I won't go further with this as I know you've probably all heard this argument before...

I believe that if, and again I say if there are truly higher instances of domestic crime when firearms are involved (honestly a baseball bat would do just fine for me...no explosion either) that they are most likely due to a lack of education on the part of gun owners. Gun ownership is something that's protected by our constitution to let's face it...we need to educate our gun owners.

Basics like don't keep a gun loaded, keep the ammo in a separate storage area etc. etc.
Though it would need to be carefully approached I think that some type of regulation of gun storage would be a desirable thing...it would discourage the supposed aggravated use of the firearm during disputes and decrease the likelihood of accident related injury/death.

There would be no reason for a law-abiding citizen not to comply.

Obviously this won't affect "criminals" use of their weapons but would at least help preserve what I think is still an important part of our country.

/me goes and start's stocking up on ammo for his AK-47 [Wink]

Keep in mind that the above was written in an extremely sleep-deprived state so anything incoherant...well, forgive me for it [Wink]

Just my 3 cents, err...is that 2 cents...never can remember [Wink]

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