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Author Topic: A question about America.
Too Cool To Quit
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Icon 5 posted September 01, 2004 21:53      Profile for Too Cool To Quit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While I was outside tonight I started thinking about the civil war, and I'm not sure why. Anyway, this question was brought to my mind, I tried to word it as best as I could to get the proper effect. And don't worry, this isn't one of those posts were some one posts a question then when you've answered or sweared them out from under their bridge and then says it was just a joke or that they already knew the answer. This is a serious question, that needs a serious answer.

What if perhaps one day a large group of America citizens decided that they didn't like the way the government was being ran, perhaps due to things such as the PATRIOT act which takes away a good deal of the privacy that American citizens are or were once supposedly given, and formed a militia and decided to take up and bear arms and contrived a plan to over throw the government? Would the countless military and civilian casualties be seen lawfully as murder? Or, would it be seen as a form of terrorism in this day and age?

Constitutionally speaking I believe that they would not be seen as murder. I think that the right to keep and bear arms, and the freedom of speech, and also the right to form a militia very similarly to the way the south did back in February 1861. But then again, the constitution doesn't stand for much these days and it would probably end up looking more like the last possibility would be more likely.

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Alright now, that's the last straw, I'm calling the ass taxidermist to tell him to stop making hats in your size RIGHT NOW.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted September 01, 2004 22:10      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Look at the shoes your filling
Look at the blood we're spilling
Look at the world we're killing
The way we've always done before
Look in the doubt we've wallowed
Look at the leaders we've followed
Look at the lies we've swallowed
And I don't want to hear no more

My hands are tied
For all I've seen has changed my mind
But still the wars go on as the years go by
With no love of God or human rights
'Cause all these dreams are swept aside
By bloody hands of the hypnotized
Who carry the cross of homicide
And history bears the scars of our civil wars


From "Civil War", by Guns N Roses

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6 weeks to go!

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 01, 2004 23:09      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Too Cool To Quit:
What if perhaps one day a large group of America citizens decided that they didn't like the way the government was being ran, perhaps due to things such as the PATRIOT act which takes away a good deal of the privacy that American citizens are or were once supposedly given, and formed a militia and decided to take up and bear arms and contrived a plan to over throw the government? Would the countless military and civilian casualties be seen lawfully as murder? Or, would it be seen as a form of terrorism in this day and age?

Depends who wins.

"Treason never prospers, for if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason" - Shakespeare - Richard III

[edit] something was bothering me about that quote, and I couldn't think what, so I looked it up. The problem was that it's supposed to rhyme.
The correct quote is
Treason never prospers: what's the reason?
For if it doth prosper, none dare call it treason!


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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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fishd
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 02:20      Profile for fishd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the big problem with this is now the USA is so large and has a single military force lead (in theory) by one man.

I'll admit to not knowing a lot about American history but I bet the whole "right to arm bears" and "me and me boys'll get together and whup yo ass" things came from a time when there were much smaller and more individual armies, perhaps responsible to a state or even the local landowner, that way a small "government" could be overthrown quite easily.

I bet in this day and age any sort of large force gathering to overthrow the government would be quickly put down by local law enforcement/national guard/regular military (unless the George W. did something *really* bad). Possible united nations involvement too?

I think the days of the people overthrowing the nasty goverment are long gone... sadly, I wish someone would overthrow ours! [shake head]


p.s. TFD, that's deep man! [Smile]

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Yeah, what he said... but funnier.

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fishd
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 02:29      Profile for fishd     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fishd:
I think the big problem with this is now the USA is so large

Um, obviously America the landmass has pretty much been always the same size geographically, what I meant was "now the government governs the whole of the USA rather than individual states" kinda thing...

Anyhoo... where's my coffee... [blush]

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Yeah, what he said... but funnier.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 04:33      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What TFD said. Plus this: if you want to get rid of a bad government, that's what elections are for. And if a new government acts so badly it needs to be removed quick, there's impeachment. But civil war in a stable, democratic country is the dumbest thing I could think of.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 05:55      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Impeachment doesn't remove one from office (Bill Clinton was impeached).

You might want to check out Retro vs Metro. It's a book that discusses America as two different countries with different views and economies.

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"haven't you ever wondered if there's more to life than being really, really, rediculously good looking?"

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 06:20      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ooby:
Impeachment doesn't remove one from office (Bill Clinton was impeached).

Um, no he wasn't.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Bibo
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 06:35      Profile for Bibo   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Gotta love it when a non-US citizen knows more than an actual US citizen. "Public Schools, Your Tax dollars at work!" [shake head]
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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 07:58      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Clinton definitely was not impeached. And if memory serves me right there hasn't been an impeachement in the last century at least.

And in all truth my mom knows more about the history and the processes of the gov't than I do. She learned everything in her citizenship classes (Korean). The immigrants know more than the natives here.

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 08:01      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
Clinton definitely was not impeached. And if memory serves me right there hasn't been an impeachement in the last century at least.

And in all truth my mom knows more about the history and the processes of the gov't than I do. She learned everything in her citizenship classes (Korean). The immigrants know more than the natives here.

Clinton most definitely *was* impeached. He just didn't wasn't forced out of his job, and didn't resign.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 08:05      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I believe Nixon was impeached. Clinton underwent impeachment proceedings but was acquitted.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Snaggy

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Icon 4 posted September 02, 2004 08:10      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nixon faced impeachement, but resigned beforehand, Bill was impeached, but continued as president.

Nuff said!

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 08:12      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Nixon was *not* impeached. However, the impeachment process was quite well underway when he decided to resign. [Roll Eyes]

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"Buy low, sell high
get rich and you still die"


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GMx

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 08:30      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You couldn't get the people of today to create a civil war unless you took away their TV sets, computers, video games, movies, cell phones, pagers, gas guzzling SUVs and crappy music. The American people didn't have as much to pull their attention away from reality back in the 19th century. Now there's such an information overload, such as internet news and cable news channels that give us information immediately, that people tend to tune much of it out. Not to mention the hypocrisy and lies that are thrown at us constantly by all sides of the political spectrum. Who's right? Who's wrong? Who knows? Who cares?
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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 08:49      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
... if you want to get rid of a bad government, that's what elections are for...

Um, remember 2000....Bush actually lost that election but is still somehow Prez

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 08:59      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
You couldn't get the people of today to create a civil war unless you took away their TV sets, computers, video games, movies, cell phones, pagers, gas guzzling SUVs and crappy music.

My uncle said this during the years before his death: The way to cripple America is to cut the electricity. Turn off the power and America can't function anymore.

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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Stereo

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Icon 12 posted September 02, 2004 09:10      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
You couldn't get the people of today to create a civil war unless you took away their TV sets, computers, video games, movies, cell phones, pagers, gas guzzling SUVs and crappy music.

My uncle said this during the years before his death: The way to cripple America is to cut the electricity. Turn off the power and America can't function anymore.
Well, it somehow happened last year in the Northeast part of America. Life went on without any revolution, except that people had to trust each other for a change. Remember those people in New York who had to sleep on the street 'cause their hotel went too hot? And no one was killed or robbed, too!

And many (me among them) had an extra paid vacation! [Big Grin]

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 16:18      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
You couldn't get the people of today to create a civil war unless you took away their TV sets, computers, video games, movies, cell phones, pagers, gas guzzling SUVs and crappy music.

Oh, I dunno about that.
Came pretty close in the south in the 1960s, when they started letting black kids into the nice schools. State troopers turned out to prevent Supreme Court rulings being implimented, federal forces turned out to enforce them, could have turned nasty very quickly.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Tut-an-Geek

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 16:51      Profile for Tut-an-Geek   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Snaggy:
Nixon faced impeachement, but resigned beforehand, Bill was impeached, but continued as president.

Nuff said!

Technically, yes, Bill was impeached, in that the House found there to be enough evidence to conduct an investigation, however, the Senate found Bill NOT guilty (55v45 if I recall) of his crimes that led to impeachment.

Under the same technicality, Nixon was impeached too, in that he didn't resign until after the House decided to conduct the investigation (two weeks after), but before it was tried in the Senate.

quote:
And if memory serves me right there hasn't been an impeachement in the last century at least.

In addition to the two above, 7 US District court judges were impeached, and one US commerce court judge.

(Sources: PBS' NewsHour and my Civics class [Wink] )

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 20:51      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Oh, I dunno about that.
Came pretty close in the south in the 1960s, when they started letting black kids into the nice schools. State troopers turned out to prevent Supreme Court rulings being implimented, federal forces turned out to enforce them, could have turned nasty very quickly.

Things have changed in forty years.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 21:43      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GMx:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Oh, I dunno about that.
Came pretty close in the south in the 1960s, when they started letting black kids into the nice schools. State troopers turned out to prevent Supreme Court rulings being implimented, federal forces turned out to enforce them, could have turned nasty very quickly.

Things have changed in forty years.
/me thinks back to that trip to Stone Mountain, GA.

Not as much as you might think. [Frown]

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 21:50      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
My uncle said this during the years before his death: The way to cripple America is to cut the electricity. Turn off the power and America can't function anymore.

That's true for any developed country. Sort of. As Stereo pointed out, no rioting occurred in the blackout last summer. Massive confusion, but no one got hurt.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Orpheus
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2004 21:52      Profile for Orpheus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just to clear things up:

impeachment: (1) The process of calling something into question, as in "impeaching the testimony of a witness." (2) The constitutional process whereby the House of Representatives may "impeach" (accuse of misconduct) high officers of the federal government for trial in the Senate.

from the us department of justice web page

Impeachment has nothing to do with removal from office, its just the official bringing about of charges.

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my cats make me crazy

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chromatic
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Icon 2 posted September 05, 2004 10:03      Profile for chromatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Um, remember 2000....Bush actually lost that election but is still somehow Prez

The Electoral College is older than you are; you should look into it sometime.
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