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Topic: Lets see they invented the game, now they can't play.
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Ashitaka
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posted July 20, 2010 08:28
FTFA quote:
The United States and the United Kingdom have said they would not honor lacrosse players' Iroquois-issued passports, which have been used by the tribe since the mid-1970s, because they did not meet new post 9/11 security standards.
Well I hate to say it, but they have a point. Most countries have bent to the will of the US and have changed thier passports to comply with US rules. The US is big and most countries don't want to hinder business.
I am not saying it is right, I am just saying most other countries have acquiesced.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 20, 2010 08:50
____ I have been following the whole debate, at first GB said unless the US would let the team return to the US, they would not let them play. Then the State department said "No Problem" then GB said "we still have a problem".
____ I suggest that the Iroquois retract allowing play of the game so nobody can play. Who ever wins can not celebrate a victory because all did not have a chance to play. I think the Indians have a right to take the game and go home. Leaving every body out on the field as players in a sport that does not exist.
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 20, 2010 09:57
Passport standards have to be agreed upon by all countries, not just the country of origin, or they don't work. The result is that the pickiest, most anal-retentive country (currently the USA) sets the standard.
Using travel documents issued by another country is common since about half the countries in the world require that you apply for and get a visa before you can visit. This sort of thing is not an affront to anyone's national dignity, nor does it undermine anyone's sovereignty.
They really have only themselves to blame. They were offered US passports when it was found that their own didn't meet the security requirements of the country they were traveling to. They refused that solution for stupid reasons and they obviously aren't updating their own passports with the required security features ("We've been traveling on this for 30 years" ... so apparently the world should never change).
Now they don't get to play. Wah.
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Snaggy
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posted July 20, 2010 10:06
Ancient Huron saying... Never piss off the Iroquois.
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 20, 2010 10:11
I think the Brits are safe in this case. It's very hard to get to the UK by canoe.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 20, 2010 11:10
____ Would you get a French Passport, if the brits said that is what you needed?
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Ashitaka
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posted July 20, 2010 12:28
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ Would you get a French Passport, if the brits said that is what you needed?
If I was entitled to it and I wouldn't have to give up my old passport , yes, definately.
The US allows people to have multiple passports. It would be a different story if they were in say germany where you can only have one.
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 20, 2010 14:47
TheMoMan wrote:
____ Would you get a French Passport, if the brits said that is what you needed?
Without hesitation. If you looked at my passport, you'd see stapled-on copies of work visas from England, Canada, Israel and Korea. Amazingly, I didn't sit around whining about being required to have all those things to enter those countries.
I also have a driver's license that contains virtually all of the same information as my passport (excepting the travel history, of course). And still... no complaints.
And the most amazing thing, apparently, is that I don't feel even the tiniest bit less like a US citizen for having gotten all those forms of ID.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 20, 2010 16:48
____ But they do not consider themselves as US or Canadian Citizens, they are Citizens of the "Iroquois Confederacy".
____ And those are Visas not a passport from a country that they do feel represents them.
____ If you went to an Indian Casino on tribal lands, at every door is a sign stating that you have left all protections of the United States outside.
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The Famous Druid
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posted July 20, 2010 17:17
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
TheMoMan wrote:
____ Would you get a French Passport, if the brits said that is what you needed?
Without hesitation.
So would I, in fact I've had two passports for the last 20 years, and happily use whichever is most convenient at the time.
But...
I'm not representing my nation in an international sporting event.
If the Chinese government had decided it didn't accept US passports, and that all American athletes who wanted to compete in the Beijing Olympics had to get a passport from some other country, I expect the US team would have done what the Iroquois did - stay home.
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Xanthine
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posted July 20, 2010 18:21
I wouldn't. I've only got one passport and I'm not interested in going through the years of pain and suffering it takes to acquire another citizenship just to go cross a border. Changing to another nation's passport is not even similar to getting a visa. If my passport isn't good enough, fsck 'em.
The weird thing about this is the UK did say that the Iroquois could enter if the US was going to take them back. Then when the US said yes the story changed. If I were Iroquois, I'd be pissed as hell too. That story-changing bait-and-switch bullshit is something I just can't stand...as supervisors have occasionally learned to their chagrin.
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Ashitaka
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posted July 20, 2010 23:13
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
I wouldn't. I've only got one passport and I'm not interested in going through the years of pain and suffering it takes to acquire another citizenship just to go cross a border. Changing to another nation's passport is not even similar to getting a visa. If my passport isn't good enough, fsck 'em.
I have friends that have been backpacking in Iran and have visited several very interesting places there. While I would never try that with my american passport, It will be on my list of this to do once I get my swiss passport.
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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"
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TheMoMan
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posted July 21, 2010 04:21
____ TFD, Xan, & ASH. You three get it.
____ LaCross an Indian game played around the world. Lets see if Soccer could trace its roots to one Country, would its Citizens be treated as the representatives of the Iroquois Confederacy have been? The country of origion of the sport.
p/s TFD, I saw this this morning
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/07/19/france.wwi.cemetery/?hpt=C1
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 21, 2010 05:58
I think you're all missing the point that the U.K. is allowed to set their own standards for what is and isn't acceptable as a passport. The Iroquois issued passports don't meet those standards, so they weren't allowed to enter the country with them.
Yes, the US offered passports to get them past immigration so they could compete. Offering to help them resolve their problem was not an insult to their national honor no matter how anyone tries to spin it.
Nobody demanded that they use US passports. The demand was for passports that met their legal requirements for entry into the UK. The Iroquois nation could have issued new passports that met the requirements, but they didn't. They chose to argue that their passports worked before, so they should work now. Apparently laws should never, ever change.
The Iroquois nation didn't update their passports to add security features that would make them valid, then these players refused help they were offered. The choices of the players and the Iroquois nation are the reason they won't make it to the competition.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 21, 2010 06:36
____ Grumpy, this news story was a few days old when I posted the link.
Story one: Britten and the USA said no to travel.
Story two: Britten said okay, but we want to know if the US and Canada will let them return home.
Story two/and one half: The US offers quick documents, that only part of the team could use, I am unsure what the Canadian players were offered.
Story three: The US said that they could return, no problem
Story four: GB said nope we will not let them in.
____ So do you go with out some of your team, or say urine on it.
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The Famous Druid
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posted July 21, 2010 16:04
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
I think you're all missing the point that the U.K. is allowed to set their own standards for what is and isn't acceptable as a passport. The Iroquois issued passports don't meet those standards, so they weren't allowed to enter the country with them.
Yes, but as anyone who's navigated the labyrinthine corridors of British immigration regulations will tell you, the end result depends as much on the whim of the bureaucrat as it does on 'rules'.
When Mrs Druid and I were heading off on our big overseas trip, we talked to the British High Commission here in oz (Commonwealth countries don't have embassies in other Commonwealth countries, they have 'High Commissions') and they explained that the visa Mrs Druid would need must be used within 6 months of issue. As we were going to be on the road for more than 6 months, they gave us a list of all the documents we'd need, and advised us to apply for the visa at the embassy in the USA, a couple of months before our expected arrival in the UK.
When we arrived at the British embassy in the USA they looked at our documents, and said we'd need a long list of other documents the people in oz had not thought necessary. So we called home and arranged for those documents to be sent to family in Montreal, where there's a consulate, and continued on our merry touristy way.
The guy on the desk in Montreal took one look at our application form (didn't even look at the supporting documents) and said "Oh no, this visa can only be issued in your country of residence, you'll have to fly back to Australia and apply there". He was totally uninterested in the fact that two other visa-issuing agencies had told us it was possible, and cheerfully told us he'd sent someone back to Jamaica just last week for the same reason.
So I asked to speak to the Consul.
The guy blinked, and tried to put me off, the Consul is a very busy man, etc etc.
Me: I don't care, I'm a British citizen in a foreign land who needs consular assistance, I want to speak to the Consul.
Him: The Consul is in Ottawa today...
Me: Then make me an appointment for when he gets back.
Him: (reluctantly) Ok, give me your contact details and I'll see what I can do.
The next day we received a call from the consulate: come in and pick up your visa.
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 21, 2010 16:21
The Iroquois players were offered a solution (or at least part of one) and turned it down and called it an insult. Canada won't even think about offering passports now because of their reaction to the US offer.
They were given a choice and they chose the option that will prevent them from competing. They deserve no sympathy for being unable to compete because of their own choice.
Yes, navigating customs and immigration is a nightmare. It is for every country*. When you're offered assistance, turning it down is usually not a wise move.
*some more so than others...note my mention of my passport showing I've been to Israel. Guess what happened when I tried to go to Pakistan. Turns out, if your passport has an Israeli stamp on it, you'll be denied entrance to most other countries in the middle east.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 21, 2010 17:02
____ Mayberry RFD. Barney Fife, Look here fella you can't just go trapesing off to England to play your silly Indian game.
____ These men play the game, not issue the Passports, through June of this year their documents were valid. Was the Iroquois Confederacy Consul informed that the documents that the team had were no longer valid, who told the Consul. Was there time for the Iroquois Confederacy to issue new documents.
____ I do know that in the South Pacific Islands papers for the natives do not exist, only non native people need them.
____ Much as TFD said I think that someone went Barney Fife because of a run-in on Tribal Grounds, this Barney then came back to work and went to work at getting even.
____ Since the Indians own the game let them set the rules on who can play who gets grants to play, just like FIM Moto-Sports AMA Motorcycle racing and NHRD Drag racing, if it ain't sanctioned it don't go in the record books.
____ Many years ago there was to be a GP/F1 motorcycle race in Tokyo.seems that the bikes from Europe were being held in Customs. The ambassador from Japan to France was called to the French State department and told "You have one hour to get those bikes to the race course, or Tokyo will lose the sanction for this and all future races, do you understand?" The race was canceled and the bikes were sent to the next race in the schedule.
____ Some Barney Fife cost TV networks, advertisers and many others a whole lot of money.
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 22, 2010 06:43
TheMoMan wrote:
through June of this year their documents were valid. Was the Iroquois Confederacy Consul informed that the documents that the team had were no longer valid, who told the Consul. Was there time for the Iroquois Confederacy to issue new documents.
The new passport security measure requirements were put into place in 2007. That's a wee bit earlier than June and it's more than enough time for passports to have been updated.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 22, 2010 07:08
____ Here in Michigan, I could cross to Canada up through Dec 31 2009, no problems.
____ The real point is did the US state department notify the Indian Consuls?
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GrumpySteen
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posted July 22, 2010 10:03
Don't be asinine.
US<->Canada travel is not the same as going to the UK. We've always kept that border more open for US and Canadian citizens (though that's changing).
Beyond that, there are 195 countries in the world. No government is going to waste the time and resources necessary to try and figure out which person or group to contact for each of the 195 countries in order to inform them of a change in travel requirements. Even if they did, the person or group wouldn't proactively issue new passports.
This sort of information is made publicly available and it's up to the traveler to verify that they have the proper documentation to enter a country. If they won't or can't do that, they need to hire a travel agent to do it on their behalf.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 22, 2010 10:25
____ Believe me Indian rights trump INS. A bunch of us were out fishing in Lake Huron. We some how drew the attention of the Ontario Fisheries Wardens. (We were in the middle of Lake Huron) So one side of the line are Canadian Fishing Laws and on the other the USA, However we held the trump card we had an Indian with us, the seaplane took off. The Indians have free passage at all US and Canadian Crossings, I don't. All North American Border Indians are considered Dual Citizens.
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The Famous Druid
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posted July 22, 2010 15:44
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
there are 195 countries in the world. No government is going to waste the time and resources necessary to try and figure out which person or group to contact for each of the 195 countries in order to inform them of a change in travel requirements.
Sorry Grumpy, but that's just plain dumb.
Every country maintains a list of which passports they accept, otherwise you could print off your own 'Republic of Grumpydonia' passport. If they don't keep contact info as part of that list, they're frakkin' retarded. Keeping foreign governments informed of this kind of thing is part of the reason the UK maintains a vast network of embassies.
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TheMoMan
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posted July 22, 2010 17:06
____ I am amazed that this is not a consulate office.
http://www.saganing-eagleslanding.com/
____ Here on the Sunrise Side The Tribal Police are better equipped than the State Police. They give (poop) pots of money to the schools, in a way that does not make the schools have to give back state money. They maintain roads and parks, some times I wish I could lay claim to being native.
http://www.sagchip.org/
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