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Author Topic: Our Stupid Health Insurance!!!!
InCogNEATO
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Icon 1 posted July 08, 2009 18:29      Profile for InCogNEATO   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My health insurance just went up $100 per month! I am searching for a new provider. Any suggestions?

Most of the companies I talk to don't take pre-existing illnesses. So, I'm probably screwed until Obama comes up with a plan.

Any comments? It's scary not to be insured, but at the rate I'm paying now, I feel like I'm being raped by Healthnet. My premuim is $600 per month and $4000 deductible!

Feedback, please! Thanks! [Confused]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 08, 2009 22:29      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not the kind of comment you're looking for, but...

$600/month?

Ouch!

Here in oz, we have a government-run health insurance scheme, paid through the tax system, the total cost averages out at about $US 700 per person per year.

Clan McDruid also has private health insurance to cover various things the public system doesn't, we pay about $US 600/person/year for that.

Total cost: $US 1300/person/year, or about what you pay in 2 months.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted July 09, 2009 00:22      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Here a major influence on health insurance prices are where you live.

I moved last dec. I live ca 200 meters over a line drawn on a map and my premiums droped from 350 per person per month to 200. for the same exact thing. I moved a kilometer or two. I have teh same doctors and hospitals and plans.


but I typically don't comp'lain about my high health care costs. I see them as taxes for a system that more or less works. We have universal health care. I am required to buy health insurance so long as I can pay for it, and the high premiums pay for those who cannot.

But I unfortunalty think Obama's plan will fail. Unless you get rid of these huge health insurance corporations that take billions out of the system providing little. There won't be enough money to care for people.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 09, 2009 02:46      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________________ InCogNEATO ______________

____ Please read this topic, it is listed on fifteen freshest topics,


http://www.geekculture.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=5;t=000513;p=1#000001

____ Ash really summed it up, the Big Money interests have us in nearly a RICO strangle hold and until someone cracks a ruler over their fingers, don't hold your breath.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Snaggy

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Icon 2 posted July 09, 2009 08:03      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
/me hugs Canada.

Don't believe anyone who says the Canadian system doesn't work. It's not perfect, but it's really, really good in 99.99 percent of the cases. I know from experience, as my mom has been battling cancer, arthritis, and heart problems for the past 4 years. The system has saved her life and is helping her every day with nursing care. She has had a huge operation, chemo, radiation, countless appointments, and home care... no extra charge.

Nitrozac and I pay about 540 Canadian bucks... A YEAR! For the both of us.

(no dental, but we can write off dental expenses on our provincial taxes... even the cost of toothpaste and toothbrushes!)

Americans, don't let the big companies rob you of what we here in Canada see as a basic human right.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 09, 2009 10:09      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ Snaggy ________________

____ You have to understand American Politics, if a Conservative can find one bad example s/he will use it as an example of the whole. Also the big players on capital hill are bank rolled by the Medco's we are talking wheelbarrows of money.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 09, 2009 14:19      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
You have to understand American Politics, if a Conservative can find one bad example s/he will use it as an example of the whole.

And if they can't, they'll 'swift boat' one up, eg, the whole fake controversy over Obama's place of birth.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 10, 2009 03:17      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ InCogNEATO __________________

____ Are you going to rejoin this topic? Please tell us more about yourself.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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brainisfried
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Icon 1 posted July 10, 2009 09:07      Profile for brainisfried     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Talk to Assurant Health. I've been very happy with them. $5K deductible for routine visits but they paid the full cost of a MRI I had done. Your pre-existing condition is still going to be a problem of course. I pay $120/month.

The real problem with American health insurance is that the tax code ties it to employers. High deductible insurance purchased by individual families is the way to go. Paying Blue Cross $thousands to pretend to pay your bills is stupid but that's the Way Things Are Done.

What happens to medical technology development if America adopts a socialist model? Who's going to pay for it?

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted July 10, 2009 11:27      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by brainisfried:

What happens to medical technology development if America adopts a socialist model? Who's going to pay for it?

American pharma companies (and foreign ones alike )develop medical technology for "socialist" health care systems (norway, UK) as well as "capitalist" companies like in the US.

There is just as much (or even more) money to be made developing new drugs and treaatments for socialst systems. ALL drug companies have departments specifically set up to deal with such health care systems.

The pharma companies negociate the price of a new drug with the government as a benifit to cost ratio before the drug becomes available. The pharma company has to prove that thier new drug does something that nothing on the market does, and that the cost is worth it. (as well as demonstrating the drug is safe)

There are actually medications available in, and were developed for, these "socialist" health care systems that are not available in the US. (for various reasons, most international drug companies try to market thier drugs in as many countries as possible.)

Whilst I would not want to have a stalinist health care system, (better off dead), socialsim isn't stalinism, though rich republicans will push this idea on the masses if it means more money to line their pockets.

... and know you got me posting in a political thread again. but I will do it to dispel teh myth that socialst health care won't bring the heath TECHNOLOGY forward. IT DOES.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 10, 2009 14:38      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by brainisfried:
What happens to medical technology development if America adopts a socialist model? Who's going to pay for it?

You can thank the 'socialist' health-care system in Australia for the cervical cancer vaccine, and the cure for stomach ulcers, and the bionic ear, and...

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 10, 2009 17:43      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Capitalist-driven researchers will try to find a cure for something only if it is believed that it will be profitable.

Socialist-driven researchers will try to find a cure for something because the majority of society wants it to be cured.

I always thought it was obvious that this was one of the deficiencies of capitalism.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2009 03:50      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ TheMoMan ___________________

____ Well to my dumb logic, if some employers offer health insurance for their workers, they are going to have to pass the cost along in product and or service costs. If they happen to be an exporter then that means on a global scale their product has to have a higher price.

____ Here in the USA we already have Medicare for those aged Sixty Five, and Medicaid for those that are on Social Services. Since these two systems are already in place, why not fill in the gaps.

____ Once the health care equation is off of business then our product prices should go down. I know they should but will not.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2009 09:22      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
... Once the health care equation is off of business then our product prices should go down....

Prices aside, one of the biggest problems with health care is that we subsidize it's association with employment by allowing the employer to pay part of the cost. If everyone purchased their own insurance, and was allowed to carry it around across jobs, there would be a lot more incentive for competition and policies suited to individual needs. I for one, would want one modeled after car insurance. High deductible, pays for catastrophes, oil changes and basic maintenance (most Dr. visits) are my problem.

OTOH, that kind of policy would be very costly for someone who brings their 4 kids to the pediatrician every few weeks. They could choose something better suited to their needs. Not that there would be anything in a non-public option. You can't make money on people who you pay out to a lot.

Which is the basic problem. We (in the USA) have turned health "insurance" into "health extended warranty plans". The former can actually be handled by a for-profit industry. The latter should be handled by a socialist system.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 11, 2009 09:41      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
__________________ TheMoMan checks in again __________

____ Where I worked the UAW contract was set up so that routine Dr. Visits were the employee's responsibility, Hospitalization, Lab tests, were covered buy the company. They wrote a blank check to the provider plus six percent for admin. The total cost to have my Prostate taken out was close to Forty thousand USD, I had to pay about one thousand.

____ People with Children had to pay for well visits but the company again paid for labs and hospitalizations.

____ Dental the program paid for teeth cleaning and oral exams (Xrays if not often) but the patient paid for fillings and more extensive work.

____ Eye Care The program paid for the exams and a small portion of the frames and lens expense.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2009 07:13      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now that's the kind of plan I like.

Still, it has some problems as well. When parents pay for well-visits but insurance picks up labs, that provides strong incentives for doctors to over-recommend lab work. They keep the up front costs low to not drive away patients, and make up the profit in procedures.

The real problem is that this is hard stuff. No one (in the US) wants to talk about "rationing" health care, but we should. We ration all sorts of other valuable things - Ivy League educations, waterfront property, access to good school systems. We just don't call it rationing, we just call it market-based pricing. We should either call health care a pure business (and face the fact that many people will go without potentially life-saving treatment because they can't afford it) or decide that we will provide a minimum safety net for everyone. But, when you do that, you have to also figure out what you want to pay for that, and be prepared to trade off some more expensive care for maintaining that basic level. TANSTAAFL

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 12, 2009 14:25      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_______________________ I'M Back ___________________

____ Talking about Rationing, most families will want to extend dear old uncle (His Name) life no matter the cost. Now let me relate my Mums request. Will this procedure make my life better or only extend it? Is this test only for you to make a better diagnosis or help me in the long term?

____ She lived until 86 just about average for all her sisters and brothers, they all went at 85 +- 3 so did she hasten her own death I don't think so, She did turn down two procedures on her heart and a cranial surgery. To her wasting money keeping her alive was not prudent, and she had a durable last medical request.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Icon 1 posted July 13, 2009 14:00      Profile for TMBWITW,PB     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:

____ Dental the program paid for teeth cleaning and oral exams (Xrays if not often) but the patient paid for fillings and more extensive work.

See, that's the exact opposite of what I'd want from a Dental Insurance program. I can afford the $90 or whatever every six months for a cleaning, it's the $600+ to take care of all the fillings that I can't handle. I don't even know how much "more extensive work" would cost, but I'm sure I couldn't afford it.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 02:55      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First please stop referring to any government provided healthcare as "socialist", because you are now framing the debate in the terms of those on the right that want to scupper it. It's not socialism it's common sense.

I buy the notion that a free market provides the best value for money and the best outcomes, and when a government function can be run by a free market, it works better. There are however some government functions that you cannot create a free market for. For example you would not want your military replaced by a mercenary force, because a good soldier is not primarily motivated by money, and you would not want that to happen. Likewise you cannot create a free market in healthcare. Except when the treatment is not urgent or perhaps if you are a billionaire, when you the customer want to use it, you seldom have a realistic choice of either hospital or doctor, and as much as one might believe in the American Dream, becoming a billionaire will not be a realistic choice for most people. Also if you are a doctor whose primary motivation is monetary, you will quickly quit front line medicine for the greener pastures of quackery or cosmetic surgery. So if you cannot motivate the providers with money, and the customer has no realistic choices, how on earth do you create a free market? It should therefore be no surprise that Americans pay much more for worse outcomes than the rest of the world. Healthcare is obviously a government function, and the notion that it is the first step on the slippery slope to a totalitarian socialist state is entirely risible.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 05:14      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
First please stop referring to any government provided healthcare as "socialist", because you are now framing the debate in the terms of those on the right that want to scupper it. It's not socialism it's common sense.

While you have a good point, what how would you name a goverment system where everybody pays in wghat they can for the same benfits?

--------------------
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-Assif Mandvi

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 05:30      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________ TheMoMan speaks up _________________

____ The US government has a program called Medicare for Senior Citizens and drawing the Government Pension. The Citizens on Public Assistance have Midicade. People that work for a living have to fend for themselves, until they retire.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 09:54      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WRT: Rationing...

All (first-world) countries ration healthcare. Canada rations healthcare, England rations healthcare, France rations healthcare, Germany rations healthcare, and THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA RATIONS HEALTHCARE!

The United States, however, is the *only* country that rations healthcare based not on necessity, but simply on how much the individual is able to pay for it. The idea of "heath insurance" just blurs everything. The people that don't have insurance don't have it because they can't afford it. This "not being able to afford insurance" takes multiple forms but constitutes the same result either way: either they aren't high enough on the socioeconomic food chain to be able to get it from their employer, or they don't have enough income to be able to pay for it themselves. Whichever way you look at it, it all boils down to the same thing: we ration our healthcare based solely on people's ability to pay.

Medicaid comes to the rescue in a tiny percentage of only the most extreme situations, but in the real world it's so infinitesimal that it can't be counted as a realistic help for most people. If I were to wind up in some sort of automobile collision, it would be up to *me* to write the checks to the hospital for emergency services, and it would be up to *me* to pay for the ambulance ride. In the end, it'd be up to *me* to declare bankruptcy as there's no fscking way I could possibly pay those bills!

For me, and many of my fellow Americans who cannot afford the "luxury" of medical services, our healthcare plan is simple: Don't Get Sick.

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get rich and you still die"


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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 10:23      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________ Climbing onto SoapBox ___________________

____ MacManKrisK and many like you are the reason that I believe that the USA has to have Cradle to grave health care, if you want more than the government supplies then go buy it yourself. We educate everyone, why not take care of them? The fiscal conservatives cried about the costs of public education but it works. The US is at wrong end of the list on infant mortality, why is that, because people cant pay for prenatal care.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 14:29      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Even when you are insured, your care still depends on your ability to pay. I've turned down tests because I couldn't afford the co-pays and deductible. I've also just not gone in when maybe I should have for those same reasons (all stitches do is reduce scarring; the cuts will still heal...eventually). [crazy]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2009 15:16      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
First please stop referring to any government provided healthcare as "socialist", because you are now framing the debate in the terms of those on the right that want to scupper it. It's not socialism it's common sense.

While you have a good point, what how would you name a goverment system where everybody pays in wghat they can for the same benfits?
I am glad that you accept that I have a good point. I can't really see yours however, and believe my original post answered it. Government run healthcare does not amount to a system of government, or a welfare state.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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