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Author Topic: The Verdict is IN!
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Highlie
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 10:09      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah, yes, I know I can be extremely caustic and even downright bitchy. But I won't apologize for it.

And its often a side stepping argument used that, "I don't mean any of it seriously, you all take me way too seriously," but I'm claiming it. And even DNM should know this, as he's talked with me a good bit. Yeah, maybe the Canadian health care bit was a low blow, but you're acting as if I'm the only person to ever offend a Canadian ever or to bring up the problems in the system.

And my attacks on Steven are only because he once said that my utter lack of common knowledge leads him to a lack of words to express his feelings. Only, I have the words, so I enjoy pointing out his lack of common knowledge every chance I get. I feel he deserves it. At least until I get bored of it.

But yeah, my errant "lets" deserves a big ole' Oooooops! [blush]

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 10:16      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
I'm just wondering why capital punishment even got dragged in when this isn't a captial case. There's a logical progression that I'm missing.

Hmmm. The only thing I can see is that I said a small part of me feels that the mother should get what she dished out to the 10 month old and Steve took hold of that and started on the death penalty. This despite the fact that I also said in the same post that punishing her like that would make the legal system no better than she was and was glad that she would spend life in prison instead. At least that is how I see it how this whole tangent got started.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 10:56      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, I can see that. The logical part of the progression is still eluding me, but that's not your fault. [Smile]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 10:58      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well I never said it was a logical progression. [Wink] I just wanted to give you an explanation.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 14:10      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine wrote:
The logical part of the progression is still eluding me

Since when have we ever allowed logic to get in the way of a good thread-jacking?

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 16:02      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well the reason why I brought up the death penalty is that every now and then you always hear about the guy who is going to be sent to his death bed while there is even some doubt about his conviction but he still gets killed even though there is doubt.

As for the guy who killed a couple dozen people on purpose while being fully aware of the situation - well then I don't really care what happens to him.

But for the guy who killed a person even if there isn't any doubt then I feel sorry for him being sent to his death. The thing he had done was terrible but is it really bad enough for his life to be taken away? What right do we have to decide if someone will life or die?

BA: Nice try with the example - but its completely useless. I've babysat 1 and 2 kids and I have babysat 17 kids. Your style is not any different if it’s 2 kids or 17. Your punishments aren't any different. All you have to do is provide them with an environment in which they respect you and give them no reason to misbehave.

Stereo: Yes I know that what other countries see as normal I might find extremely stupid and I shouldn't attack there ways but could you please remind the American Government of this though? Oh and thanks for defending me and yes English is not my first language.

I love this video to show how I find some parts of America stupid

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 16:21      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
Yes I know that what other countries see as normal I might find extremely stupid and I shouldn't attack there ways but could you please remind the American Government of this though? Oh and thanks for defending me and yes English is not my first language.

I think that is a piece of what can rile up the US people on the board. You mistake the gov't for the people.

It would be much like me comparing you to the MacKenzie's.

The logic is not there.

That said I do believe in the death penalty. But I also want a better running judicial system, to lessen the possibilities for improper prosecution. Pipe dreams really. I also want a car made from solid gold and a hot looking brunette that believes I am not an asshole. Not happening any time soon.

But the simple fact is that people in the U.S. are very different fundamentally from the Europeans and Canadians. I can sit back and have a conversation with people from this site on IRC (which is great for getting an instant reaction) and see the absolute confusion on certain ideals we hold nearly sacred. And at the same time, they confuzzle me also.

Sorta like getting loopy and trying to talk about... well about anything. Except I don't enjoy these conversations nearly as much as stoner physics.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 16:45      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
All this sniping between Americans and Canadians is really sad.
Can't you focus on the things that unite you rather than divide you?
For example, you both have funny cartoon-character accents and drive on the wrong side of the road.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 16:52      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
All this sniping between Americans and Canadians is really sad.
Can't you focus on the things that unite you rather than divide you?
For example, you both have funny cartoon-character accents and drive on the wrong side of the road.

At least we aren't permanently in danger of falling off the world. [Wink]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 17:05      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stevenback7 wrote:
I love this video to show how I find some parts of America stupid

Hmm... you go up to a group of people and bait them, insult them and deliberately piss them off and they react violently? Which side is being stupid again?

But of course the natives of the Netherlands would never become violent over something so stupid.

Hmm... okay...well, I'm sure Canada is far more rational about such things and would never resort to violence so easily.

Hmm, maybe... and I realize that this is a wacky, insane idea... maybe there are actually violent people in every part of the world and the news media tends to emphasize them, giving a distorted view of how the normal people in any given area really behave to the rest of the world.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 17:09      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey -- aren't we all just trying to get along? [Smile]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 17:32      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
Hey -- aren't we all just trying to get along? [Smile]

A long what?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 18:01      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen - I only checked the dutch videos - way to only link soccer hooligan videos!! Go Soccer !!!

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Highlie
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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 19:27      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You've babysat 17 kids before? Exactly 17?

Not only do you argue based on sheer opinion, but you're a liar to boot. Awesome.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 03, 2007 21:15      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stevenback7 wrote:
Steen - I only checked the dutch videos - way to only link soccer hooligan videos!! Go Soccer !!!

And your overly dramaticized link of a run in with less than 10 idiots at a single gas station in an unnamed small town represents all 300 million US citizens?

Let's take a look at that math...

10/300,000,000 = 0.000008% of the population or 1 in 30,000,000
I can't find an exact figure for the riots I linked (and am honest enough to admit so), but the numbers range from several hundred to over a thousand. We'll be generous and say it was only 100 people.
100/16,500,000 = .0006% of the population or 1 in 165,000.

Which one is more representative of the population again? The 1 in 30 million or the 1 in 165 thousand?

The truth is, neither is representative... and I said as much. Apparently your dumb ass missed the last part of what I posted, however, so I shall repeat it in bold letters:
there are actually violent people in every part of the world and the news media tends to emphasize them, giving a distorted view of how the normal people in any given area really behave to the rest of the world

Are you comprehending this? Is the message getting through that thick skull of yours? Is there any chance at all that you're ever going to understand what my point is?

Sadly, I think the answer to all three seems to be a pretty firm "no" at this point based on your reactions.

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 06:55      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen: Calm down, I just shared a video with you which I find amusing to watch. I'm pretty sure if they did something like that in Iraq they would all be dead by now. Apparently in America in the south they call upon "the boys" and throw rocks at you. I don’t know what they would do in Canada but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't care.


BA: Yes, 17 kids - okay some days a couple less and some days’ maybe a couple more. I was the kindergarten babysitter at my old elementary school for 2 years - that was approximately an hour and a half each day of me being in charge of 17 kids, making sure they ate, cleaned up, didn't get in trouble, and all the other things you are expected to do when you are babysitting. Now you are insulting me based on things you don't know - just like how I insulted you a week or so ago and accused you of not knowing anything about the dairy process when you apparently worked on a farm. I'm pretty sure that doesn’t make you any better then me, and doesn’t make me any better then you either. But I know for a fact that it doesn’t make me a liar.

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Highlie
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 09:05      Profile for business attire     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
Apparently in America in the south they call upon "the boys" and throw rocks at you.

That is a God damned lie and you REALLY need to watch what you say. Southerners do NOT stone people. You actually DISGUST me with the horribly uneducated and un-researched things you say. Just do us all a favor and stop talking about America right now, because it is ever apparent that you know NOTHING about us. Other than maybe the president, I think everybody knows that.
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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 09:49      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by business attire:
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
Apparently in America in the south they call upon "the boys" and throw rocks at you.

That is a God damned lie and you REALLY need to watch what you say. Southerners do NOT stone people. You actually DISGUST me with the horribly uneducated and un-researched things you say. Just do us all a favor and stop talking about America right now, because it is ever apparent that you know NOTHING about us. Other than maybe the president, I think everybody knows that.
I was referring to the video - which is actually real life. So how can you say southerners don't throw rocks at you when it is right there in the video. I'm not saying all Americans behave like that and neither am I saying all southerners behave like that. But the fact is that some do. And I know Steen will come out again with his video's of dutch soccer hooligans. And I will say that I never said that the dutch population doesn't misbehave either - but that if you do something like the stunt in the video in the netherlands that you wont be stoned. And how did this topic stray so far away from the death penalty topic I brought up?

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 10:15      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
steven: Kiwanis IS international, is it not? Yet its members are encouraged to recognize and respect national and cultural differences, correct? Your view in this thread seem to exclude the USA from those considerations, lad. Maybe it would be a good idea to lighten up rather than throwing more fuel on the fire.

Just a suggestion.

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 10:22      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure stoning is considered cruel and unusual punishment. As such, it is not endorsed by either the Federal or State Governments of the United States of America, and by extension, is excluded from criticism by your attacks on the US Government.

This is not, after all, Islamic Fucking Republic of America [shake head]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 10:47      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stevenback7 wrote:
Apparently in America in the south they call upon "the boys" and throw rocks at you. I don’t know what they would do in Canada but I'm pretty sure we wouldn't care.

Sources:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/table_04.html
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/d050721a.htm
http://uregina.ca/~gingrich/211canimm.htm

Violent crime rate in Canada:
A bit over 930 per 100,000 using 2004 data... Canada's crime statistics suck and I can't find newer or more accurate information. The actual rates I found varied, as well, from around 930 to over 1,000. We'll say 930 (benefit of the doubt and all that) as none of the sources I found listed anything that low, much less any lower.

Violent crime in the US
Population - 296,410,404
Violent crimes (2005) - 1,390,695
Rate per 100,00 - 469

Violent crime in the southern US
Population - 107,505,413
Violent crimes (2005) - 583,323
Rate per 100,00 - 543

Violent crime in Alabama
Population - 4,557,808
Violent crimes (2005) - 19,678
Rate per 100,00 - 432

And the only part of the US with a higher violent crime rate than Canada...
Violent crime in the District of Columbia:
Population - 550,521
Violent crimes (2005) - 8,032
Rate per 100,00 - 1,459 [Eek!]

Having put forth all those statistics, I have to say that this came as a surprise to me. I knew the violent crime rate in the south wasn't as bad as it's made out to be in the news and that other areas really aren't that much less violent, but I did not expect Canada to have nearly twice the violent crime rate as the US. I honestly thought it would be about equal. This is the value in actually doing research before you speak on a subject you don't know anything about.

So umm... apparently Canadians would not only care, but they would be about twice as likely to react violently.

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LemonSmuggler
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 12:15      Profile for LemonSmuggler     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This is my view on people who kill, if they kill someone they should get the death penalty, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Some say that's a harsh way of thinking but it's ony fair. They took someone else's life and should pay with their own.

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Oy to the vey.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 12:24      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LemonSmuggler:
This is my view on people who kill, if they kill someone they should get the death penalty, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Some say that's a harsh way of thinking but it's ony fair. They took someone else's life and should pay with their own.

Err... okay... How do you know when someone has committed murder? Murderers have been known to not tell the truth. Many innocent people have been sent to jail for a crime that (it has later been found out) they didn't do. So, you're quite happy for the state to take the lives of criminals, bearing in mind that there's a fairly reasonable chance that several of them will be innocent? Is your hunger for vengeance that strong?

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 12:28      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LemonSmuggler:
This is my view on people who kill, if they kill someone they should get the death penalty, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Some say that's a harsh way of thinking but it's ony fair. They took someone else's life and should pay with their own.

I believe this is too simple of a solution for too complex of an issue. Three points.

What if a person kills someone unintenionally. They are at fault, but it was an accident. Should they be put to death?

What if a child killed someone. Would you put a 12 year old girl to death?

What if the killer is mentally retarded and unable to understand their actions' consequences?

Nothing is ever black and white. That would make things too simple.

post scriptum
This reminds me of a ST-TNG episode from the first season where wesley breaks some window on an alien planet paradise and is sentanced to death for it, that being the planets only punishment for all crimes.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2007 12:43      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by business attire:
quote:
Originally posted by stevenback7:
Apparently in America in the south they call upon "the boys" and throw rocks at you.

That is a God damned lie and you REALLY need to watch what you say. Southerners do NOT stone people.
Keep your facts b-a. When I was living in Ky as a kid, I used to stone all sorts of people. We called it Sunday Go To Meetin' Judgement.

Then we would light up crosses, eat water melon, and then perform acts of incest. It was fun for the whole family.

It is just a Southern thing. Like snake dancing, teaching kids to chew tobacco, and frying chicken.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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