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Author Topic: PHP
Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 07:55      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm thinking about teaching myself PHP. Anyone with any particuliar views?

I know Dragonman hates it but why?

Pros? Cons?

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Mac D
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 08:25      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wikipedia says that it's an alternitive to Microsoft ASP.NET any anything that is a Microsoft Alternitive I'm all for it.

I really don't know anything about it. But i don't like Microsoft.

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maximile

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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 08:29      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I use it and it suits me, though there are times when I wish I knew something else. It has nice documentation.
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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 11:57      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From what I've seen and heard, it is incredibly insecure. Like, ridiculously so. But I suppose if you're careful, just like with all other languages, you can make it safe and suited to your purpose.

I hear that Python and ASP go well together- maybe you should look into that

/shameless-python-plug

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Ugurcan

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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 13:07      Profile for Ugurcan   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
PHP is a versatile and mature scripting language, full of useful built-in functions. But, normally no one uses 90% of these functions. I use PHP regularly and I like it.

It is not, in my experience, a very convenient tool when it comes to handling object oriented code.

On the other hand if you'll be spending time learning a new language for web applications, I think RoR is the way to go. It's not a PERL killer yet, but I know many developers switcing from PERL to Ruby these days. Ruby's star is most likely to shine in a couple of years. I'm learning ruby (on rails) and it keeps amazing me as I continue exploring it.

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"Constants aren't, Variables won't..."

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 13:20      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My experience has been that PHP allow someone who know HTML but has no other programming experience to start building dynamic web sites. And then, they get into trouble because they are not designed with security or scalability in mind. But... there's more. It also seems to lure good programmers into making things with security holes. I've got to be twice as diligent writing in PHP than I do in Java.

IMO, it should not be used for anything else but creating mockups and prototypes. We're planning to rip it out of our web site and replace with something yet to be determined.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 14:01      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
would anyone suggest the .NET framework?
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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 14:14      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
would anyone suggest the .NET framework?

No.

Edit: To be fair, and to make this post somewhat useful, I should throw my vote in for learning Ruby, and then Ruby on Rails. Plenty of reasons why, but have to run, as I'm off to a meeting.

Always happy to discuss it in #joyoftech. [Smile]

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AntonTakk
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 14:48      Profile for AntonTakk   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
personally I don't think it is any more or less secure than most any other web scripting language, just a few (universal) rules to follow:

/NOTHING/ the user has the ability to type in should ever touch a shell.

if you must take user input, whitelist, not blacklist or any other kind of list, even if you are just spitting the information back at them

once the script is working, add some code so that if it does have an error, it doesn't spit it at the web browser, your visitors don't need to know what error prevented them from seeing the page

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`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings: Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair!' - Percy Bysshe Shelley

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 15:17      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Jace Raven wrote:
would anyone suggest the .NET framework?

I would!

I've also suggested stuffing a computer case full of black powder and overclocking the processor, however, so you may want to consider the source of the suggestion [Big Grin]

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Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 17:54      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've used PHP a bit, and I like it so far. I don't know that I'd use it in a commercial setting, but one of the guys I work with swears by it.

I've also done a little ASP, which is more familiar to me because it's basically just VB scripting and VB has been 90% of my professional life the past 7 years or so.

The little I've read about Ruby so far does not get me stoked up. It looks to me like the format of a name determines if it is a variable, constant, etc. Call me a non-conformist dinosaur, but I want to tell the compiler/parser if something is a constant or not, not the other way around. If I want my constant names to be all lowercase then by gum they're going to be lowercase. I'm also confused by parameters within vertical bars for blocks -- where do the values come from? Maybe the online guide I'm reading just stinks. It has a dumb enough name (Why's Poignant Guide to Ruby or something like that), and it seems to be geared toward five-year-olds. Also, I can't really get behind the idea of everything under the sun being an object. OOP has some benefits, but potentially a lot of overhead.

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted July 19, 2006 21:19      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Also, I can't really get behind the idea of everything under the sun being an object. OOP has some benefits, but potentially a lot of overhead.
Actually, making everything an object is the kind of thing that makes a language powerful. Compare Smalltalk's relentless objectness to Java's compromise of making int an intrinsic type. A few revisions later they had to add auto-boxing to Integer because generics require objects. The same analysis favors Ruby over PHP or Perl.

Of course, there is context to apply to all of this. A good language does not neccessarily make a bad programmer more productive. What matters more to me is that a good language might make a good programmer 10 times more productive than they were before. That's where you get payback.

So, a lightweight programmer with PHP might even be more productive than they would be with Java or Ruby. I don't really care, because if I have smart people working for me, two guys with a superior tools can turn out the work of 10 guys with PHP. If I could, I'ld only hire Lisp programmers, but there aren't enough people that good to go around.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2006 06:04      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"PHP and MySQL is the VB and MS Access of the open source world" -- an ex-coworker of mine.

PHP is dreadful. No way to make variable names follow a more strict rule (like perl's use strict, or many languages' default behaviour.)

Its object oriented system is brutal (even worse than Perl's.)

They can't seem to decide on a naming convention for their subroutines. Which is it? addslashes (no underscore) or mysql_fetch_array (with underscore)?

The only thing PHP has going for it is it's fast and easy. Like a hooker.

If you want to do web development, I suggest you look Perl's way, and at one of its many really good web frameworks like Catalyst.

I know Ruby (and specifically Ruby on Rails) is getting a lot of press lately, but I can't make an honest statement about it yet, as I don't know it well enough.

What I do know, though, is perl has DBI, and no other language has anything as fucking awesome as DBI.

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Doco

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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2006 06:55      Profile for Doco   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
The only thing PHP has going for it is it's fast and easy. Like a hooker.

I LOVE that quote.

Just to thow in my opinion - I have done a little PHP work and it was "fast and easy". Great for small sites or throw-away one-offs. I have my doubts that it would scale up well to a group of people creating a more complex site. (Then again, even with crude tools great craftsmen can create a masterpiece - you just have to watch out for the dung created by the hordes of wanna-be craftsmen)

Look into Ruby on Rails - I haven't used it, but it is the "hot" tech for doing sites.

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted July 20, 2006 07:28      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Of course, we should note that the forum system at GC is done in PHP. On the other hand, if I'm correct, this code base was end-of-lifed by infopop and you can only buy the ground-up rewrite now.
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Sirius
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Icon 1 posted July 24, 2006 11:59      Profile for Sirius     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I use php a fair bit, both for work and personal projects and while it is a pretty decent and mature web development language, I think currently,its best suited for developing small/ medium sites.

IMO, if your intention is to end up developing sites that work as part of an enterprise / distributed application.. ie get a job as a developer, then your best bet is to focus on ASP.Net and/or JSP.

php is a very valuable skill though.. heck just learn everything [Razz]

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ARJ
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Icon 1 posted July 24, 2006 19:37      Profile for ARJ   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
would anyone suggest the .NET framework?

Not unless you have access to a Win2K or Win2K3 server and Visual Studio.NET, or the $$ to buy licenses.

I think .NET is a decent development framework (hey, I program in it for a living), but I do all my fun experimenty personal stuff in Python on Redhat or Ubuntu. On the other hand, .NET seems to be pretty marketable (at least for me here in Sydney) so if you want to do it professionally it's not a bad way to go in terms of getting hired and earning decent $$.

There are a few things I've heard about PHP that I don't like-- like the fact that there are tons of random functions in the top level namespace (correct me if I'm wrong or was misinformed)-- that make it sound unappealing to me. I like something a bit more orderly than what PHP sounds like. However, it is pretty commonly used so you could leverage a lot of already-written code out there by using it.

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Katie West: Well done steak? Really?

Warren Ellis: Yes. Because MAN COOK MEAT WITH FIRE UNTIL IT NO CRY ANY MORE THEN EAT IT DEAD

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted July 24, 2006 20:08      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ARJ:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
would anyone suggest the .NET framework?

Not unless you have access to a Win2K or Win2K3 server and Visual Studio.NET, or the $$ to buy licenses.

I think .NET is a decent development framework (hey, I program in it for a living), but I do all my fun experimenty personal stuff in Python on Redhat or Ubuntu. On the other hand, .NET seems to be pretty marketable (at least for me here in Sydney) so if you want to do it professionally it's not a bad way to go in terms of getting hired and earning decent $$.

There are a few things I've heard about PHP that I don't like-- like the fact that there are tons of random functions in the top level namespace (correct me if I'm wrong or was misinformed)-- that make it sound unappealing to me. I like something a bit more orderly than what PHP sounds like. However, it is pretty commonly used so you could leverage a lot of already-written code out there by using it.

I have 2k3 Ent and VS.NET plus Liscences to spare. The Corps buys extra for individual training purposes.
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ARJ
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Icon 1 posted July 25, 2006 17:31      Profile for ARJ   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I have 2k3 Ent and VS.NET plus Liscences to spare. The Corps buys extra for individual training purposes.

http://www.gotdotnet.com/quickstart/ will give you a good introduction w/ pretty decent examples & you can probably decide for yourself from that whether or not you'd want to learn more.

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Katie West: Well done steak? Really?

Warren Ellis: Yes. Because MAN COOK MEAT WITH FIRE UNTIL IT NO CRY ANY MORE THEN EAT IT DEAD

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2006 05:41      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks a lot ARJ.

I've decided to go with starting on the .NET framework. Figure I'll put php off for some other day.

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ARJ
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Icon 1 posted July 26, 2006 23:14      Profile for ARJ   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Thanks a lot ARJ.

I've decided to go with starting on the .NET framework. Figure I'll put php off for some other day.

You're welcome! Feel free to bug me if you have questions-- I've been developing for .NET since the beta 1 release. Don't know so much about ASP.NET 2.0 yet but I will be learning soon.

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Katie West: Well done steak? Really?

Warren Ellis: Yes. Because MAN COOK MEAT WITH FIRE UNTIL IT NO CRY ANY MORE THEN EAT IT DEAD

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