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Author Topic: Is love obsolete?
serishema
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 22:48      Profile for serishema     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

It doesn't really make much sense to be a victim of some unknown algorithm that selects a particular person for you to focus inordinate amounts of your attention on, even when this is clearly counterproductive.

I'm happy on my own doing my own thing until I enivitably get infatuated with someone which disrupts my nice little routine. I have yet to see an instance where this doesn't end up having negative utility value.

I've thought romantic infatuation should simply be genetically engineered out of the human species. I'd be up for that.

It's not a game I can play, even when someone returns my supposed feelings (which i really view as an error in my program it's not in my power to correct) I just leave a trail of destruction because envitably I realise i'm all happy for no reason and it all wears off. Completely irational behaviour on their part usually follows. I think crazy bastard/bitch (as the case may be) and get out of there.

Does anyone else feel this way?
Does anyone else wish this thing people call love would just go away?

What strategies of avoidance do you use?
Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 23:15      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lemme try and find the right words...eh...I'm tired now...

Get...a...life... [Smile]


Cheers,
dragon

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csk

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 23:25      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Someone said to me once (may have even been on here) that romantic infatuation/crushing is simply your mind constructing the perfect person out of the limited amount that you know the person at that stage. And glossing over any shortcomings etc.

My personal feeling is that there is a second sort of love which involves recognising that both people in the relationship are flawed/imperfect/etc, and attempting to work through things together, and always do the best for the other person and relationship, even if that costs personally.

Of course, the second sort isn't exclusive to romantic relationships, so how one really tells the difference between really close friendships and romances I'm not sure...

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serishema
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 23:54      Profile for serishema     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Lemme try and find the right words...eh...I'm tired now...

Get...a...life... [Smile]


Cheers,
dragon

I have a life thankyou very much, and I have no interest having it messed up by romantic delusions.
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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 23:59      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Aren't you a little young to be so cynical?

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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 00:09      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

YES. That is exactly how I feel. It may be considered a "bitter" point of view, but I think it is somber and realistic.

Actually, many civilizations throughout history believed that romantic affection is inherently volatile, and would actually wreck an otherwise sensible marriage.

My favorite quote from the Bard:
These violent delights have violent ends
And in their triumph die, like fire and powder,
Which as they kiss consume: the sweetest honey
Is loathsome in his own deliciousness
And in the taste confounds the appetite:
Therefore love moderately; long love doth so;
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow.


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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 00:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:
Aren't you a little young to be so cynical?

Nah, I'd sworn off women entirely when I was 21.
And again when I was 22.
Then when I was 23, I met Mrs Druid... [hearts]

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 01:12      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I love infatuation. Do you ever meet somebody and just click? You stay up all night talking - you make your own little world where nobody else exists - it's almost a transcendant experience. You can't help but be a little in love with that person, maybe forever.

My world is a better one for those times. They didn't last, but the moments were themselves perfect.

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 03:00      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It might be unrealistic in terms of the everyday world, but that is not the only world. I also think that, though sometimes infatuation can make you build a false picture of an ideal from your own head, just as often it lets you see a side of someone that is deeper and truer than all the fscked up nonsense that clouds our better selves. Just because it doesn't work in this crazy world, does not necessarily make the person you saw through those love spectacles an illusion either. In general it's a good idea to try to see the best side of people, as it is encouraging, and as often as not they will try to live up to what you see in them, and for exactly the same reason it is wonderful when someone else sees your best side.

Like the Firesnake I treasure all the people I have loved. Sometimes I wish I could live a hundred alternate lifetimes, so I could properly love all the wonderful women I have run across. Then reality intrudes and I realise that trying to be a better husband to the one I am married to is a rather more immediate pressing and practical concern! Uh oh..... [crazy]

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Matias
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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 05:48      Profile for Matias   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I love infatuation. Do you ever meet somebody and just click? You stay up all night talking - you make your own little world where nobody else exists - it's almost a transcendant experience. You can't help but be a little in love with that person, maybe forever.
This will last a little while...6 months later... the "truth" comes out and than you know who you are really dealing with. Not right away but that is only the beginning of all the fun! [Big Grin] [Mad]

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skylar
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Icon 5 posted November 10, 2005 06:07      Profile for skylar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by supergoo:
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

YES. That is exactly how I feel. It may be considered a "bitter" point of view, but I think it is somber and realistic.
I agree... to an extent. Romantic infatuation is largely pointless in the sense that it is so often doomed - by its very nature, it sets you up for a fall, and is by and large something which causes a lot more misery than happiness.

Having said that, though, I think it would be just as pointless to try and 'phase out' romantic infatuation as a social construct. The hope of happiness/fulfilment, and striving to achieve that, can be as valuable as the actual attainment, IMO.

More and more I am realising that humanity is essentially screwing itself in every ideal or belief system that it attempts to appropriate (religion, love, peace, democracy, history, etc.), but we can't really do anything but try, can we?

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 09:30      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's nothing wrong with infatuation, IMO. It's just one of many feelings a person may have, and can sometimes be lead to a loving relationship. It's just important to realize that infatuation does not encompass all that love is.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 09:47      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
There's nothing wrong with infatuation...

Quite right. Although I like to call it 'strategic walking'. [Wink]

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 10:29      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Infatuation and love are two very different things.

Like the old joke:

What's the difference between like, love, and lust?
Spit, swallow, and gargle.

Infatuation is when you've found someone you *think* might be right for you, and your mind/body/heart/whatever wants them to be the right one for you so bad, that you'll overlook anything wrong with them, and ignore the bad in place of the good, and over emphasize the good. This is never good, and many people confuse this with love. It's unfortunate too, because I have done it, and it's what put me in some bad situations in the past -- because sometimes, you believe in this lust so blindly, that your subconscious will try and tell your brain that it ain't gonna work, but you refuse to listen for whatever reason (in my case, because I insisted I didn't wanna be wrong..)

Love, however, is when you understand, and accept someone else's faults, and still can't imagine being without them regardless.

unfortunately, love and lust both override your 'sense of judgement', but I've found, at least in my own experiences, that the moments I've enjoyed as a result of my love for Amanda are worth far more than doing anything stupid could possibly deprive me of.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 12:47      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
My favorite quote from the Bard:
These violent delights have violent ends
And in their triumph die, like fire and powder,
Which as they kiss consume: the sweetest honey
Is loathsome in his own deliciousness
And in the taste confounds the appetite:
Therefore love moderately; long love doth so;
Too swift arrives as tardy as too slow.

But he also wrote:

Oh mistress mine! where are you roaming?
O, stay and hear; your true love's coming,
That can sing both high and low.
Trip no further, pretty sweeting;
Journeys end in lovers meeting,
Every wise man's son doth know.

What is love? 'tis not hereafter;
Present mirth hath present laughter;
What's to come is still unsure:
In delay there lies no plenty;
Then come kiss me, sweet and twenty,
Youth's a stuff will not endure.


I know which I prefer [Big Grin]

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted November 10, 2005 18:25      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
serishema wrote:
What strategies of avoidance do you use?
Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).


I'll probably be the only person to respond to this part, and I'll do so with TMI at that...

I've been celibate for over seven years now and I can tell you with absolute certainty that there is no way to avoid infatuation, crushes, lust, love and all the rest (unless you're a true psychopath, but then you wouldn't have posted this to begin with). You're going to experience those feelings no matter what you do, so accept it and make the effort to keep your feelings from replacing your ability to make rational decisions. Once you do, you'll find that you can have a lot of fun being in lust/love/whatever without destroying your life at the same time.

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Icon 1 posted November 11, 2005 07:52      Profile for The White Tree     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Love is one of the best things about life. I don't know why anyone would be so cynical unless they have been burned time after time (and I mean a whole lot of times). And as for engineering love out of our species, that would lead to a whole lot of bad stuff. Love usually means a monogomous relationship, which is almost always exhibited by intelligent species. I read somewhere that monogomous relationships lead to something, but I forget what. I think it has something to do with child development or something.
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fs

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Icon 1 posted November 11, 2005 09:19      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Matias:
This will last a little while...6 months later... the "truth" comes out and than you know who you are really dealing with. Not right away but that is only the beginning of all the fun! [Big Grin] [Mad]

I didn't actually mean someone who I enter into a romantic relationship with. I meant specifically not someone who I have a romantic relationship with. I find that real love takes longer, I don't think you can truly say that you love someone until you recognize their flaws. Once you see the flaws, acknowledge them, and work through the disparate views and imperfections and other relationship difficulties together, thats where real love begins.

Infatuation is a different beast. There have been people I was completely infatuated with that I would never have dated. Not that they were bad people, quite the contrary, but we wouldn't have worked together. Walking away at the right time means you will always be a little bit in love with that person.

One night I met a man. I didn't know him before that night. We spent all night together, first walking and talking, then drinking and talking, finally sitting in a hotel room and talking. We were both exhausted, but neither of us wanted to go to sleep. He missed a flight so that we could keep talking. Finally, the sun came up and reality intruded and we had to go our seperate ways. But for that night, he was absolutely perfect and my whole world and I was the same thing for him. We still talk, but not like that. That is the best I can do. If you've ever felt it, you know what I'm talking about. If you haven't I can't describe it to you.


[Wink]

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ewomack
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Icon 1 posted November 11, 2005 17:02      Profile for ewomack   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Romantic love doesn't have to be monogamous. I know plenty of people who have fallen in love with multiple people at a time. And how many people fall in love with another person while married "to the one they love"? Quite a few these days. It's entirely possible, yet inconvenient, to fall equally in love with multiple people. Because love has a real frustrating irrational side, which is probably why a lot of people hate it. Of course those who can "let go" enjoy this part the most.

Love also involves a suspension of belief, in the same manner of a good story. But what in life doesn't? Sometimes the mere act of getting out of bed requires strategic forgetting, or a turning off of the spicket of existence. It's what we do. We play a lot of games to make it through this thing. Love is one of those games we play.

And of course sex enters into it. Love usually blossoms from physical attraction. We are animals, after all, and we are wired to mate like gangbusters. But somehow this fundamental necessary drive became filtered through medieval, classical, and victorian ideals and left us SPLAT where we are now. And with the changing roles and position of women in the western world, the 'ol romantic ideal has started to show its age. But it still works for some people, and good for them.

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Icon 2 posted November 11, 2005 18:11      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage), is a pretty pointless thing.

But ...

... you're the one who can't sleep at night?

And you're depressed?

Mmmmmaybe it's because there is a hole in your heart, and in your bed?

I know when I have somebody special in my life and in my arms I sleep a lot better.

CP

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serishema
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Icon 1 posted November 11, 2005 19:20      Profile for serishema     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you must know there is a cirtain evil girl who was once in my CS class who is responsible for that.

So yeah.. I'll get over her tho.
Just frusturated, cos I think she's anoying and empty headed even though i'm pathetically infatuated.

I just don't cope with that kind of cognative disonance very well.

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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 07:44      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It might help, or it may not. When I get a crush on someone I know there is no way it can work, I let my imagination take the lead, and imagine the relationship - all the way to the break-up. Works every time. It may take a few days, or it may take longer, but it allows me to move on to more important matters.

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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 08:43      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
serish == U? U hasn't posted for a dogs age, but he posted a lot of the same kind of thing.

Originally posted by serishema:
You might call me bitter for saying this, but I think romantic infatuation or whatever you want to call it (some people call it love, but I reserve that word for other usage),

What usage?


is a pretty pointless thing.

Depends on your definition of pointless... If by pointless you mean:
- Makes you happy
- Takes away your breath
- Gives you an excuse to get out of the house
- Gives you company on your excurssion out of the house...

Then, yes...

It doesn't really make much sense to be a victim of some unknown algorithm that selects a particular person for you to focus inordinate amounts of your attention on, even when this is clearly counterproductive.

Counter productive to what ends? Because it takes away from time coding?

I'm happy on my own doing my own thing

Yes, but you also have little reason to try new things and expand your horizons.

until I enivitably get infatuated with someone which disrupts

Ah, sweet disruption.

my nice little

You said it not me. Perhaps there's your problem. ;p [evil]

routine. I have yet to see an instance where this doesn't end up having negative utility value.

My great grandparents were highschool sweet hearts, they are still together to this day. Both, very happy and still in love.

I've thought romantic infatuation should simply be genetically engineered out of the human species. I'd be up for that.

Then the species dies out... Some people might call this a good thing, but I'm not so sure.

It's not a game I can play,

I'm all for games in most things, but in love there should be no games... Too much on the line.

even when someone returns my supposed feelings (which i really view as an error in my program it's not in my power to correct)

Not an error at all.

I just leave a trail of destruction because envitably I realise i'm all happy for no reason and it all wears off.

After the initial rush wears off, that is when you findout if you love them of not. It's easy to fall into infatuation, it's easy to fall into lust, but to find real love can be difficult. What's more is that after you find love, it's not happily ever after... Love isn't always enough, there has to be trust, honesty, and communication.

In the interactions between any two people there are always going to be trials, and you'll always have to re-evaluate if it's worth it or not... If you always take this point of view, then you'll always think it's not worth the time and energy, and you'll miss out on some of the things that make life worth living.

Completely irational behaviour on their part usually follows. I think crazy bastard/bitch (as the case may be) and get out of there.

see.

Over time i've managed to learn to predict the type of people i'm likely to be attracted to and take pre-emptive action (eg changing lab streams so as not to be around said person before infatuation can develop).

Problem is, it'll still get you when your least expecting it.

Quoting Goo
YES.

Not the Goo too...

That is exactly how I feel. It may be considered a "bitter" point of view, but I think it is somber and realistic.

Realistic? To quote futurama:
quote:
Narrator [in movie]: Did you notice what went wrong in that scene? Ordinarily Billy would work hard to make money from his paper route then he'd use the money to buy dinner for Mavis, thus earning the slim chance of performing the reproductive act. But in a world where teens can date robots why should he bother? Why should anyone bother? Let's take a look at Billy's planet a year later. [The scene changes and a foam hand rolls across an empty American football field] Where are all the football stars? [The foam hand continues to drift across an empty laboratory.] And where are the biochemists? [The scene changes to a split screen of a pair of human and robots making out on beds.] They are trapped - trapped in a soft, vice-like grip of robot lips. All civilisation was just an effort to impress the opposite sex. And sometimes the same sex. Now, let's skip forward 80 years into the future. Where is Billy?

[The scene changes to a post-apocalyptic world. Billy is an aged man but he is still with his Monroebot and still making out with her.]

Billy [in movie]: Farewell!

[He dies.]

Narrator [in movie]: The next day Billy's planet was destroyed by aliens. [In the movie a fleet of flying saucers destroy buildings with a quick laser shot.] Have you guessed the name of Billy's planet? It was Earth. Don't Date Robots!

Actually, many civilizations throughout history believed that romantic affection is inherently volatile, and would actually wreck an otherwise sensible marriage.

quote:
Farnsworth: I knew I should have shown him Electro Gonhorrhea: The Noisy Killer.
Quoting Sklie
I agree... to an extent.

*shakes head*

Romantic infatuation is largely pointless in the sense that it is so often doomed - by its very nature, it sets you up for a fall, and is by and large something which causes a lot more misery than happiness.

If not for the suffering that it causes, it not for the pain... It wouldn't be so pleasurable. Actually, I think that's exactly backwards... If not for all the good, and the pleasure that there is in love, then there would be no pain. There is always a risk of being hurt, and I know only a few people who've never felt the cutting edge of love's whiles... but as the bard said:
"It is better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

Having said that, though, I think it would be just as pointless to try and 'phase out' romantic infatuation as a social construct. The hope of happiness/fulfilment, and striving to achieve that, can be as valuable as the actual attainment, IMO.

Ah, that sounds a bit more like the old Sky.

More and more I am realising that humanity is essentially screwing itself in every ideal or belief system that it attempts to appropriate (religion, love, peace, democracy, history, etc.), but we can't really do anything but try, can we?

I don't think we're screwing ourselves at all. I think that realizing that there are lofty and possibly unattainable goals we are built to strive for, is the cause of all of man's endevours.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 09:38      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
... lots ...

Damn this board is just LITTERED with extremely intelligent, insightful people. (And no, I'm not being facetious; I'm dead serious.)
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Icon 1 posted November 14, 2005 13:07      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ah yes, love...

I am I the only one who feels lkike they're going insane when they fall in love? I hate it. I'm always far happier when the falling part is over and I'm just in love. I got kind of resentful the last time it happened. I wante dto smack the guy with a dead fish and curse him to the bowels of hell for inflicting this madness upon me. I'm a grad student, I don't have time for this. But then I got through the falling part and things stabilized. Hopefully this relationship will last and last and last I won't have to fall in love again.

Is love pointless? Of course it is. Love is utterly bereft of any point at all. So are really nice meals, good music, fine chocolates, birthdays, holidays, baby guinea pigs, long walks under the trees, a gorgeous sunset, a deep breath of air off the ocean, and the moments of clarity that come when you're standing on top of a high mountain and the world is spread out before you. You can aruge that a walk or climb is exercise or a meal is nourishment, but there's other more functional and productive ways to get nourishment and exercise. Very few of life's pleasures have a point or purpose beyond one thing, and that one thing is feeling happy. Love makes people happy. The rest of my list makes me happy - your own may have some variations. Happiness itself dones't have much point either, except it's one of those things that humans are hard-wired to seek and, for myself at least, I tend to be more productive and pleasant when I'm happy.

The bottom line: There's no justification for love. Love just is.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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