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Author Topic: Let me tell you how it will be...
Erbo
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 00:54            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
...that's one for you, nineteen for me,
'Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman...


Well, John, Paul, George, and Ringo never imagined this:
quote:
The UK's tax collection agency is putting forth a proposal that all employers send employee paychecks to the government, after which the government would deduct what it deems as the appropriate tax and pay the employees by bank transfer.
People of the UK: Your government is looking to make you SLAVES. That's the only way to describe it; they are declaring that the product of your labor is, in fact, not yours; it is THEIRS. Then they will "graciously" dole out to you whatever portion of it they find "appropriate" for you to have. (How much is that? Half of it? A quarter? Five percent? None?)

WAKE UP.

(HT: Karl Denninger.)

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 01:30      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Doesn't most of America allow this? I don't see the difference if the government deducts the money or your employer does. Just in America, I believe, you can opt out of your taxey being withheld.

On a personal note I think that withholding taxes is a horrible idea. Not because of the interest that can be earned on the money but because people don't have to learn how to save.

Here in Switzerland there is no withholding of taxes. you get a tay bill once a year and have to pay it. That means that from your 13 yearly pay checks you have to set aside a percentage for taxes. Everyone has to learn to do this. This, I believe, teaches the populace to learn how to save up for things, because if you have leanred how to save up for paying your taxes, then you can learn how to save up for other things.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 07:23      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The actual proposal, which says nothing about sending employee paychecks to the government. Deductions would still be made by employers and paychecks would go from employers directly to employees. The only difference is that taxes would be calculated by the government for each pay period rather than looked up in a table that was calculated by that same government. The proposal explains the possible benefits and problems and asks for discussion (which is not the same as knee-jerk reaction).

Karl Denninger is hysterical moron who obviously didn't bother taking five minutes to read the damn proposal before freaking out over an idiotic blog post by someone who either misread what the proposal says or was passing along someone else's stupid interpretation of it.

I wish political discussion didn't resemble the whisper game so often.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 10:25      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Geez Steen. Way to kill the buzz. Nothing like a whole lot of hysteria about something that's not happening anywhere to get you revved up in the morning.

Where the frak did this gem come from, anyway? I've seen it somewhere else today too. Clearly someone put on their silly hat this morning and decide to start scaring Americans about something that's not happening in a different country with a different tax code, but to what end? Other than, of course, another opportunity to scream "Be afraid!" because god forbid we ever stop being afraid. then we might start being, like, reasonable or something...

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 14:29      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine wrote:
to what end?

Oh, that's simple enough. Look at Denninger's particular philosophy... small government, no powers not explicitly assigned by the constitution, etc... basically libertarian with his own personal quirks and self interest.

It's much easier for Denninger and his ilk to drum up support if people are afraid of our government. Taxes obviously haven't been enough to do it, so out comes the bogey-man: "big government is going to take away all your money and make you beg to get any of it back!"

The only real question is whether Denninger is demonstrating confirmation bias, willful ignorance or just plain stupidity.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 18:38            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um, Denninger didn't write the report I linked to. The article appeared on CNBC's Web site. And its phrasing was perfectly clear.
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 19:03      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Erbo wrote:
Um, Denninger didn't write the report I linked to.

Funny. You seem to have forgotten that you also linked this post by Denninger who said, and I quote, "Government has declared your labor THEIRS." (emphasis his).

Aside from that, should I believe your sources or the actual proposal, which I read? Your sources did not fact check and, no matter how clearly they stated their lie, it's still a lie.

Unsurprisingly, I'm going to believe that what I read in the proposal is actually the content of the proposal (duh) rather than hysterical posts by cnbc, Denninger and you.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 19:30      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's funny Erbo, because the only link in your initial post was to the wise and all seeing one, Karl Denninger, so the grumpster was not being unreasonable.

And to reiterate what he said, this is just a proposal, a bit of kite flying, and it has had fairly wide news coverage here, and the vast majority of reactions, you will not be surprised to learn, have been unfavourable, so it is very unlikely to happen. The context in which this has occurred is also relevant. The existing UK tax collecting systems are old, and unwieldy. They have, over the last 10 years or so, attempted to patch them together with various big IT projects, which have either run into the sand, or delivered only marginal benefits for the money wasted on them. So now they are contemplating more radical change, and this is just one of many different ideas that have been thrown up.

Sorry to prick your balloon Erbo, so this next bits just for you. wink wink.

(written with a gun at my forehead and under the influence of government prescribed "truth" drugs from the UK work camp in the Socialised Hell That Is The Rest Of The World)

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2010 21:51      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
The actual proposal, which says nothing about sending employee paychecks to the government. Deductions would still be made by employers and paychecks would go from employers directly to employees. The only difference is that taxes would be calculated by the government for each pay period rather than looked up in a table that was calculated by that same government. The proposal explains the possible benefits and problems and asks for discussion (which is not the same as knee-jerk reaction).

Hold the phone...you mean they would actually calculate the *CORRECT* tax ahead of time, and just make things work?

I just about cower when looking at things like the W-4, as I don't necessarily have a clue what should be done for withholdings, and have no idea whether my employer is necessarily competent enough to figure it out either.

That's a FANTASTIC idea. I'm glad to see that someone decided to mix common sense with computers.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 22, 2010 06:25      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
dragonman97 wrote:
Hold the phone...you mean they would actually calculate the *CORRECT* tax ahead of time, and just make things work?

Yeah. Crazy, isn't it?

I wish they'd do it here, too. About 20% of my yearly income comes in the form of bonus money that's not used for calculating my withholding, so tax time is about as much fun for me as a barrel of monkeys dosed with heavy duty laxatives.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 22, 2010 08:33      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:

I just about cower when looking at things like the W-4, as I don't necessarily have a clue what should be done for withholdings, and have no idea whether my employer is necessarily competent enough to figure it out either.

Heh.

I think my current employer has my with-holdings properly set. And they did with-hold from my bonus last year. I didn't think twice about that until Steen mentioned how he has to pay tax on his bonuses later.

It would actually be a bit ironic if my employer didn't have my with-holdings done right seeing as I'm on the federal payroll.

My previous one, despite my pleas, never could get it right because they thought grad students didn't owe social security. The IRS has a different opinion on such matters. So every year I filled out my 1040 and braced for impact. Not that I could really afford the impact, but I scraped it together and made it work. All us grad students were in the same boat and so when our boss came through bragging about his tax credits and mighty refund (it helps to be in one of 'em high five-figures or low six-figures brackets) we tried not to throttle him. We also tried to ignore all the sales the stores put on to help you us spend the refunds we never got. The Bush tax cuts didn't affect me or my peers because we were below the favored brackets. The credits for homeowners and people buying new hybrids and assorted other crap didn't help us either. You gotta be rich to escape your taxes. [crazy]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 26, 2010 02:12      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I for one find Erbo's intellectual crush on Chairman Denninger quite touching, I can almost hear the violins play...

The 'whispers game' is quite interesting, as far as I can tell it goes like this...

1. HMRC produced discussion paper calling for improved reporting of salary payments.
2. Institute of Directors (a big business lobby group) issues press release that grossly misrepresents the proposal.
3. CNBC doesn't bother reading original proposal, and reports IoD press release as fact.
4. BizJournals.com produces brief summary of CNBC article.
5. Chairman Denninger produces rant based on BizJournals article.
6. Erbo produces rant based on Chairman Denninger rant, based on bizjournals article based on CNBC article based on IoD lies about HMRC proposal. Somehow it's become SLAVERY by now, not quite sure where that came from, there was no mention of cotton fields in 1-5, and even the straw-man system the IoD dreamed-up wouldn't amount to SLAVERY.
7. Kevin Bacon's pay cheque mysteriously goes astray.

To put the HMRC proposal into context, the problem with the PAYE system here in oz (and probably also in the UK) is that the withholding tables the tax man publishes assume you're only working one job. If you have 2 jobs (and these days "one full-time job" is becoming somewhat quaint and old-fashioned) you run the risk of having too little tax withheld, and getting a nasty shock at tax time when you have to pay the extra $$$.

The only way to ensure the correct tax is withheld is to include income from all jobs in the calculation, which is what the HMRC proposal is all about.

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