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Author Topic: Move Your Money
Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 00:43            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd like to put in a few good words for this particular project...because, although it was started by liberals for their own reasons, it's also good in terms of conservative principles as well.

That project is the Move Your Money project, which encourages people to take their banking business to local banking institutions, community banks and credit unions, rather than patronize the "too big to fail" banks, that are only not failing because the Fed and the Government have agreed to let them lie about the state of their finances.

The founders say:
quote:
Community banks are typically more conservative about how they manage their money, they’re more closely connected to the people and businesses who live near them, and they’re more inclined to make loans they know will get paid back. In other words, they have the values that more people would want banks to have.
And those, I would argue, are conservative values. Do things for yourselves, at a local level, devolving power away from large institutions like the big banks and the government, which will abuse that power. It could be right off a Tea Party supporter's protest sign. (Don't miss the video, either. It uses clips from It's A Wonderful Life along with clips from news video and C-SPAN to make its point.)

For my part, I'm in the process of moving my banking business from Wells Fargo, one of the "Big Four" banks (and one that, if it were forced to recognize the true market value of all the mortgage paper it's presently carrying on--and off--its balance sheet, would likely be bankrupt today), to FirstBank, a longtime, stable Colorado banking institution (headquartered in Lakewood, in the west Denver metro area). With my money deposited there, I know that it will be used to benefit Coloradans, not fat-assed chair-warming Wall Street banksters coming back from their six-martini lunches to think up new ways to fleece the American public and "justify" their multi-million dollar bonuses (paid for with taxpayer money).

Naturally, while FirstBank is a good choice for me, it may not be a good choice for you (almost certainly not, if you don't live in Colorado). The Move Your Money site has a tool to help you locate good, local banks in your area with sound finances, that would love to have your business.

The nation needs a banking system; it does not need any specific bank or banks. Someone tells you otherwise, look whose pockets their hands are in...and don't be surprised if it's yours.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 01:42      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Perhaps your have heard that the "big " swiss banks have been in trouble with the IRS lately. And add into that that with the housing bubble, the big swiss banks wee teh only banks in switzerland to have inveted in these toxic packages. So many swiss took thier money out of CS and UBS in 2008 the banks had to do major layoff and had their first quarters ever with a loss.

but... with all those swiss people taking thier money out of the large banks, they had to put it somewhere. They naturely put it into small banks. The small banks in Switzerland got a few billion franks worth of extra money in thier coffers just as the economies of the world were crashing, and thier stocks skyrocketed and, they were able to offer money cheap to local businesses just as the credit markets were freezing up and, improve the local economies. All this without government help.

I wonder why this didn't happen like this in america when the big american banks started having troubles. Why didn't the people natureally take thier money out of the banks that were failing and put it into the banks that were not. THIS IS HOW THE ECONOMY IS SUPPOSSED TO WORK.


but I think with the governmetn bailout, individuals thought there was no reason to favor the good banks over teh failing banks.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 03:16      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Community banks are typically more conservative about how they manage their money, they’re more closely connected to the people and businesses who live near them, and they’re more inclined to make loans they know will get paid back. In other words, they have the values that more people would want banks to have.

Or, (to quote a local example from the 90's) to lend far too much of their money to a few big borrowers, go broke, leave thousands of local businesses and ordinary depositors up sh1te creek, and nearly destroy the state economy (including leaving yours truly out of work for half a year - Bitter? Moi?).

I do 'bank' with a local institution much like what you describe, for some of the reasons you gave, but I don't kid myself that they're any safer than the big banks.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 2 posted May 17, 2010 07:00      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Famous Druid wrote:
Or, (to quote a local example from the 90's) to lend far too much of their money to a few big borrowers, go broke, leave thousands of local businesses and ordinary depositors up sh1te creek, and nearly destroy the state economy (including leaving yours truly out of work for half a year - Bitter? Moi?).

Now now... you know if it hadn't been for all those government regulations, the savings and loan industry would have been just fine. Right? Smaller government, less regulation and a free market is always the right answer.

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Snaggy

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Icon 4 posted May 17, 2010 10:24      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I attempted to move my debt from one of the big Canadian banks to a smaller local credit union. Unfortunately I would have had to pay almost DOUBLE the interest.

Seems the smaller places have to borrow from the bigger banks here in Canada in order to get their money. Why Credit Unions can't borrow money directly from the Bank of Canada is a mystery to me and criminal, imho.

I think individual Canadians should be able to borrow money from the Bank of Canada, under certain circumstances. After all, it's our frigging money! But then again, I am a Canuck-red socialist.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 11:03      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Boy was I ahead of the curve on this one...

I pick my banks based on their physical convenience to me and then, if there's a choice, their relative amounts of pure bullshit. So Wwhen I started college, WaMu was just starting to expand outside of Washington state and since I was headed for the other side of the country, I closed my account and opened a new one with HSBC, which had a branch near my university, at least one ATM on campus, and a sweeter deal for students than Chase, their main competitor for the student market. HSBC is huge but I was too small to be screwed with, know what I mean? And then when I moved to CO, I closed that account because there wasn't a local HSBC. By then, WaMu was huge and I almost went back to them, but something made me nervous. They'd gotten so big so quickly...it just made the little hairs on my neck stand up. Not being a financier, I can't tell you why. Also, and more importantly, there's a credit union affiliated with CU. Got a branch on campus and other branches in town. So I started banking with them. That was seven years ago. It has its advantages and disadvantages, but I've never been hit with a hidden fee or weird fine print issue. In fact, it's a wildly popular credit union. Pretty much everyone I know who qualifies to be part of it is. The one guy who isn't admits he was just being an idiot.

In fact, credit unions seem to be very popular all over Colorado. It's nice because they've all agreed to cooperate with their ATMs and that means I can use the ATMs at DIA for free. [Razz]

When everything went to hell in 2008, my entire lab went into a panic. We all had our money in the credit union and what if they failed? So we went to the local branch on campus and asked what was up. The teller rolled her eyes at us, said we were insured and that, anyway, they hadn't done "that stupid stuff the other banks did". She said that their interest rates on CDs had in fact just gone up and then offered to sell me one.

It's really sad though, going home and seeing all the old WaMu locations with Chase signs. Like I've lost a friend. Former classmates and I mourn. All of us had, at one point or another, a passbook savings account with WaMu and those who stayed on the West Coast did all their banking with WaMu until it went down. [Frown]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 12:02      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've always been a credit union customer, and recommend them whenever possible. They usually offer better services with fewer fees, which the big four have been ratcheting up the last several years. The fees are a major part of their profits lately, so it's nice to have a bank that keeps them reasonable.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 12:30      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I expect that to be a staple of all credit unions, but just in case: Desjardins pays parts of its local profits to the users/owners in form of a return ("ristourne", in French). It is usully in proportion of how much you use the services. For example, they may return 4% of the interests paid on a mortgage, 2% of interests paid on other personal loans, extra 0.5% of interest on some savings, and 5% of usage fees. (I really am making those numbers out, so don't pay too close attention.) Of course, it is also related to how much profit were done, so on bad years, you may get none or very little, but I always got something for as long as I can remember. And that is since before the tech bubble.

Yet, as nice as credit union can be, I would still recommend not putting all your money at ther same place. I also have an ING saving account, different investment funds, I bought worker's union funds for the first time this year... and I pay back my loans as fast as I can. (Well, I only have my mortgage left, anyway; my credit card get paid in full each month, and I have a credit line on my regular checking account that I may have to use for my trip to Europe.) True that some of my funds lost value last year, but some not only resisted, but actually gained value; so my losses aren't that bad.

Overall, I am growing a nice cushion, financially speaking. (I forbid you to talk about that _other_ cushion! [Big Grin] )

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Eppur, si muove!

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 12:50      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My recent issues with back child support have actually halted my idea of switching at least for a while.

Credit unions have some nice features, but they can be good or bad also. One thing that I see is availability of funds. I keep my monies with a chain that has very good coverage nationwide. This means the likelihood of not finding a branch just about anywhere I go is pretty small. Which means that getting certain services are also not going to cost me.

I have moved three times in the last three years and each time I have had a branch nearby that could perform all my banking duties. All I have ever had to do was change my address and keep going about my business.

I think this really boils down to how you need to use your funds and who can best meet those needs. Right now, I can't find a local credit union that can do what I need without charging me more. So I stay. As well as the access to old check stubs and bank statements for the last 5 years without charge. When I get a bit more settled into a single place, it may be in my best interests to move to a local credit union. Until then...

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 14:32      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
stupid questio here, what is the difference between a bank and a credit union, when I was in the states, I used a credit union. Which I always thought was anouther name for a bank. Don't they offer the same services?

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 15:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
stupid questio here, what is the difference between a bank and a credit union, when I was in the states, I used a credit union. Which I always thought was anouther name for a bank. Don't they offer the same services?

Here in oz, Credit Unions are owned by the members, and you have to be a member to 'bank' with them. As not-for-profit organizations, they typically offer their members a better deal, higher interest on deposits, lower interest on loans.

Most were formed back in the days when banks were reluctant to lend to the working class, so workers at large employers got together and formed their own savings/lending organization. Most credit unions are still associated with workplaces, so there's a Teachers Credit Union, Police Credit Union, etc.

Others are associated with places, many country towns have their own credit unions, catering to the "keep your money local" sentiment Erbo mentioned above. This has become especially important in recent years here in oz, as the banks have closed many branches in country towns, causing a strong anti-bank backlash.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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MacManKrisK

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 15:47      Profile for MacManKrisK     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ashitaka: What TFD said for Aussie Credit Unions goes for US Credit Unions too.

My first banking expierence was with 5/3 Bank (never trust a bank that can't reduce fractions!) and it was awful. They hidden-fee'd me to death! "Totally Free Checking" my fat arse!!

After I left 5/3, I took my money to Berrien Teachers Credit Union. When I told the account lady that I'd been with 5/3 the first thing she said was "Oh, I'm so sorry!"

I've been with BTCU for 7 or 8 years now and I recommend that everybody who can should change to a Credit Union. 5/3 really soured my palate for banks.

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"Buy low, sell high
get rich and you still die"


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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 16:58      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I once described a credit union as a money co-op. Not a perfect analogy, but that should give you the basic idea. They're pretty popular in the Interior West. You get to elect the leaders and go to meetings, if you want to (I don't).

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted May 17, 2010 22:55      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by MacManKrisK:
Ashitaka: What TFD said for Aussie Credit Unions goes for US Credit Unions too.

My first banking expierence was with 5/3 Bank (never trust a bank that can't reduce fractions!) and it was awful. They hidden-fee'd me to death! "Totally Free Checking" my fat arse!!

After I left 5/3, I took my money to Berrien Teachers Credit Union. When I told the account lady that I'd been with 5/3 the first thing she said was "Oh, I'm so sorry!"

I've been with BTCU for 7 or 8 years now and I recommend that everybody who can should change to a Credit Union. 5/3 really soured my palate for banks.

I've been with the local Educational Employees Credit Union for about 13 years now, and wouldn't dream of banking anywhere else in Fresno.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2010 00:30            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Credit unions are often local, but may be very large entities indeed. When I accumulate enough money for an emergency fund that I don't want to keep it at FirstBank, I plan to open a savings account with Pentagon Federal Credit Union, a credit union that mainly caters to members of the Armed Forces and employees of the Defense Department. Anyone can qualify to become a member, though, by joining the National Military Family Association...a good way to help "support our troops," too. I believe this is called "putting your money where your mouth is." [Big Grin]
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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2010 00:39            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh, and for those of you worried that a local bank might fail once you've moved your money there...remember, the small banks are FDIC insured, too. Plus, if you use Move Your Money's "Find A Bank" tool, it's powered by the folks at Institutional Risk Analytics, and only returns banks that score a "B" or better on IRA's bank grading system, which measures how financially sound a bank is.

They do remind you, "Not all community banks are risk free. Some of them got involved in the same risky behavior that took down some of the biggest banks." They provide their tool to help minimize the risk and give the solid community banks more business.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2010 01:49      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was just thinking, in america , most all people know that in the US there is the FDIC protection up to 100,000 USD on their accounts.

We do not have that is Switzerland. ( though it was recently proposed)

I am thinking, this is a good idea for the short run but not for the long term.

If your banking was not FDIC insured, and they offered you a house loan where you didn't have to bring 30% in cash, would you put your monex in the bank.

Because maybe you could make that work, but enough can't that it would be a risk to the bank and therefor your money.

Would banks be better off without FDIC insurance, because then peopel would pick and coose only banks that don't do stupid things with YOUR money.

Or , better yet, reduce teh FDIC insurance to 5 to 15 grand, enough that people still have something if the bank goes belly up, but also, that they have a real chance of loosing something Really, even when I was saving for my house, and had six figures, I never, except for the few days befor the sale, had six figuresin my bank account. It was diversified over many things (stock, CD's, other currencies), and I believe that most people really don't just keep six figures in a Bank account unless they are really rich.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2010 14:45      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Instead of making FDIC a joke and lining people with moderate savings up for devastating loses, we could reinstate the Glass-Steagal Act which, before it was repealed, prevented banks from trading instruments like the mortgage-backed securities that brought the world economy to it's knees.

But that's just crazy talk.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2010 16:34      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ GS, Well Said.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted May 18, 2010 23:53      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
Instead of making FDIC a joke and lining people with moderate savings up for devastating loses, we could reinstate the Glass-Steagal Act which, before it was repealed, prevented banks from trading instruments like the mortgage-backed securities that brought the world economy to it's knees.

But that's just crazy talk.

Well yes, do that, but my point is, to use a car analogy, How many people drive faster on the freeway because tehy feel safe in thier 2 ton SUV with anti lock brakes, ai bags, ESP, and so on. Would so many people still drive so fast if they were driving in a wood crate with drum brakes and no seat belts.

I am just say<ing, I think , one of the MAJOR factors, as well as the Glass-Seagel act, is that people thought there money was safe, so they didn't take their money out of the banks in the early 2000's when these banks started lending money to people they shouldn't have.

Since I closed my US bank account when I bought my house, not one Cent(Rappen) of my savings is insured. If I found out that my bank was giving house loans to people without requiring 30% down or proof of a stable job, I would have my money in a new bank before the end of the day. even thoguh in the short run, I would see benifits ( lower interest rates) from my bank earning alot more money than its competitors that have higher standards.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 19, 2010 00:22      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
one of the MAJOR factors... is that people thought there money was safe, so they didn't take their money out of the banks in the early 2000's when these banks started lending money to people they shouldn't have.

A valid point, insurance might make banks more inclined to risky behaviour, but the alternative, (not insuring the banks) is a bit hard on the poor old depositor who doesn't know what his bank is up to, and has no reliable way of finding out.

I mean, it's not not like the banks publish a list of "reckless loans we made this week".

Plus, without insurance, rumours of bank insolvency can cause a 'run' on bank deposits. If too many people take their money out of a bank, it will go under, even if the rumours were false and the bank was doing nothing wrong.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Erbo
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Icon 1 posted May 19, 2010 00:29            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
Instead of making FDIC a joke and lining people with moderate savings up for devastating loses, we could reinstate the Glass-Steagal Act which, before it was repealed, prevented banks from trading instruments like the mortgage-backed securities that brought the world economy to it's knees.

But that's just crazy talk.

It's also something that Karl Denninger has been advocating for YEARS. An example:
quote:
Bar trading with government-backstopped money. This means reinstating Glass-Steagall, in short. Gamble with your own money, not the government's and not the people's. Period.
And another example:
quote:
Re-impose Glass-Steagall. 17 pages of legislation that kept the system safe and sound for FIFTY YEARS.

We started dismantling it in the 1980s by circumventions and outright unlawful acts including Alan Greenspan granting an illegal waiver to legitimate an illegal merger.

This culminated in Gramm-Leach-Bliley and the Commodities Futures Modernization Act - the latter overruling anti-bucket-shop laws put in place to prevent the precise same acts that caused the meltdown in 1929. As one would expect, we got the same result we had in the 1920s.

Seventeen pages Mr. President.

Re-enact Glass-Steagall - the original seventeen pages. No ifs, no ands, no carve-outs, no buts, no exceptions and no edits.

SEVENTEEN PAGES.

Without them you have fixed nothing.

I should note that Denninger has spoken approvingly of the Move Your Money Project in the past, and he is also, I believe, a PenFed customer, though I may be wrong about the latter (it was from his site that I learned about PenFed in the first place).

Incidentally, Ashitaka, the FDIC insurance limit has been "temporarily extended" to $250,000. It remains to be seen how "temporary" that extension actually is.

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