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Author Topic: Time to split
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 07, 2010 17:19      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The UK election looks interesting.

The tories have 306 seats out of 650, and will need the support of minor parties to form a government.

But this is more than just a close election, let's look a little closer at the results:

Here's the number of tory MPs, by country...

England: 297/533
Wales: 8/40
Scotland 1/59
Northern Ireland: 0/18

Total: 306/650

It's clear, the Conservative Party is basically an English disease, the rest of the UK want's nothing to do with them. And the Tories know it. Ask any Scot or Welshman why they don't vote Tory, and they'll tell you it's because the Tories act like the government of England, not the UK, and treat the rest of the UK with contempt

It's time to call the UK a failed experiment. If the English want to be governed by a bunch of upper-class twits in fox-hunting costumes, then that's their problem, the rest of us can have a government of our own choosing.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 07, 2010 17:36      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ But, But, BUT then it would not be a UNITED KINGDOM!!!

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Grummash

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Icon 1 posted May 07, 2010 19:39      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TFD:
It's time to call the UK a failed experiment

Never were wiser words spoken.

There are only two options as I see it...either we let Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have full and true independence or we forge ahead into a federal Europe. The federal Europe option looked good to me five years ago - but much less so now.
Maybe the only way to take the idea of national pride back from the fascists is to restore respect for individual nations - give Wales to the Welsh, Scotland to the Scots and Northern Ireland to....well, I'm not sure, but England has to concede it is not an English territory.

We have been too arrogant for too long.

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted May 07, 2010 23:49      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD, have you moved? Just asking since your sig says you're in Melbourne, Aus.

Then you say that "the rest of us can have a government of our own choosing".

I was under the impression you already did. And then the Scots have their own Parliament, as do the Welsh and the Irish.

The problem is the first past the post system. For example: votes per seat: Con 35,021; Lab 33,338; Lib Dem 119,397.
Oxford recently had some boundary changes, and is split into two. Oxford's combined vote: Lib Dems: 41087 Conservatives: 33633 Labour: 27937. Yet that gives one Conservative MP and one Labour MP.

Numbers off twitter, but it gives a flavour.

Admittedly PR would let in some undesirables, like the BNP, but that's the price of democracy.

Posts: 2421 | From: That London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2010 01:40      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
TFD, have you moved?
I didn't stop being a Scot when I changed my address.

quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
The problem is the first past the post system.

FPTP is a brain-damaged system, no argument there.

But that's not what I was on about.

Sure, if we had PR, the Tories would have scored more seats in Scotland, about 9 of the 59 seats, but they'd still be in 4th place behind Labour, SNP, and Lib-Dem. (btw - they'd have about the same number of seats in Wales, and substantially fewer in England)

Overall, the Conservative Party got about 1/6 of the votes cast outside England.

That poor showing isn't about Left/Right. There are plenty of people in Scotland/Wales/NI who are 'conservative' by any reasonable definition, but few of them vote for the Conservative Party, because they remember previous Tory governments who acted like an English government, not a British one.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2010 04:38      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
That poor showing isn't about Left/Right. There are plenty of people in Scotland/Wales/NI who are 'conservative' by any reasonable definition, but few of them vote for the Conservative Party, because they remember previous Tory governments who acted like an English government, not a British one.
That isn't my impression at all. And even if it is, so what? The regional candidates (SNP, Plaid Cymru etc.) from non-English Britain got elected to the UK parliament. If they all got together with Clegg and Labour, they could rule.

I don't like the tories either, but breaking up the UK because you don't like the result of an election is just plain daft.

Interesting numbers here: http://www.lightrefrain.net/election2010/

Posts: 2421 | From: That London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2010 06:05      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Well, we Merkins are ruled by men in suits with buckets filled with money. All rules and laws are written to help the men in suits hand out more money.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2010 06:54      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
breaking up the UK because you don't like the result of an election is just plain daft.

That wasn't my meaning.

I don't want to break up the UK because I don't like the election result. I was using the widely disparate election result as an illustration of why the UK should be broken up. Such a huge difference indicates to me that the English are just plain marching to a different drum than the rest of the UK, and it's time to recognize that reality.

People talk about how polarized American politics has become, and yet in the Reddest of the Red States, the 'blues' get twice the vote Cameron's lot did outside of England.

quote:
Interesting numbers here:
Well, if nothing else good comes of this election, you can be sure that whichever side cuts a deal with the LD's, electoral reform will be part of that deal. The FPTP system is dead and buried.

quote:
Admittedly PR would let in some undesirables, like the BNP, but that's the price of democracy.
Depends how it's done. There are hybrid schemes that attempt to retain the benefits of having a 'local member of parliament' while avoiding the gross anomalies the UK system is prone to. In Tasmania, the state elections have multi-member electorates, each returning 5 members. The threshold to get an MP elected is 1/6 of the vote, which usually keeps the Lunatic Fringe at bay.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
littlefish
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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2010 07:23      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm pretty sure that most Scots don't want independence. Googling to find data to back my assertion, I found this. 27% for, 55% against.

However, 31% said they would be more likely to back independence if Cameron got in. I'm not sure whose side that most supports.

Posts: 2421 | From: That London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged


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