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Author Topic: Arguing with the dining room table.
Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2009 16:04      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are a lot of conflicting, yet still legitimate, concerns over how health care is delivered in the United States of America.

I think all opinions need to be heard and that is difficult to do because of the din of nonsense that has become viral during the debate.

I like how U.S. Congressman Barney Frank handled his town hall meeting. He makes some good points and adds a bit of humor doing it.

BARNEY IS FRANK

What do you think?

Mr. Geek 2U

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 19, 2009 22:59      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I like what he did and I think his non-political correctness will get him killed in the next election.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 02:58      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ His statement ____

____ just reflects that some people came to start an argument and do not care what the answer is.

____ Never start an argument with your Ex. Its like trying to teach a pig to sing, you are not going to win, and all you end up doing is annoying the pig.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 05:29      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Geek 2U:
I think all opinions need to be heard and that is difficult to do because of the din of nonsense that has become viral during the debate.

I could not agree more. Unfortunately the other side does not want to debate. Even here, (and we do actually have some right leaning members here), none of them seem prepared to explore the issues, or argue specifics. Erbo is happy to relay some second hand anecdotal evidence from his ex, and garlicguy tells us we are all talking shit, but then backs off as soon as the actual nuts and bolts of his position starts being looked at. It's very sad, if that's the best we can do here in an amicable, intelligent, and above all curious community, God help the rest of America.

Before it became an insult, the description "liberal" meant that you had the humility to acknowledge that neither side has all the answers. I hope it's not too long before even conservatives recognise there is some truth in this, and then maybe we can start talking to rather than at each other, and maybe even trying to listen sometimes.

But don't hold your breath. We live in a time when one side is only interested in disrupting public meetings, turns up to public appearances of Obama with firearms, and dehumanises those with whom they disagree by calling them Obamabots. There is a long road to travel back to civilised political discourse.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Zwilnik

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 07:02      Profile for Zwilnik   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The scary indications are that the real world is turning into the internet. At least as far as forums are concerned.

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The Universe is entirely made up of elements.
The most important of which is the element of surprise.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 09:11      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zwilnik:
The scary indications are that the real world is turning into the internet. At least as far as forums are concerned.

<trolling>

It is not!!!!11!!11one!!11


Fuck you !!!1

your all ghey!!!1111111!!!!1


</trolling>

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Erbo
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 11:33            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Concerning "second-hand anecdotal evidence from my ex"...

I consider this important, because it's from a source I trust (after all, I was married to her for seven years, and we parted on reasonably good terms), and I also know the kind of medical issues she faces, because, again, I had to help her deal with them for seven years.

After I've lost count of the number of times I had to drive Pamela into the ER at Presbyterian St. Luke's at some ungodly hour of the night because her migraines had gotten so bad that only an IV administration of Demerol or morphine, along with Phenergan or Zofrin for the nausea, would help her, it pains and saddens me to hear that, not only can she not get that kind of help from the Finnish socialized health care system, but that they threaten to throw her into a mental hospital for even asking.

I know she made the choice to go over there of her own free will, and that I helped her to do so because she told me that's what she wanted. I also believe that, if she knew in 2007 what she knows now, she probably would not have gone over there.

And I know the Democrats aren't planning to make our health-care system exactly like Finland's in all respects. However, if it begins to exhibit some of the same, demonstrated qualities that Finland's system does as a result of these "reform" efforts, we will have lost something valuable, probably a great deal more than anyone here realizes, including me.

(Sabrina doesn't have as many health issues as Pamela does...mainly just a DVT condition that requires her to take Coumadin, and for which she has to have regular blood tests to ensure her dosage level is right. Even without health insurance, that's easy enough for me to pay for. Yet I wonder how a socialized-medicine system would affect her treatment. Would they, for instance, force her to use the generic warfarin drug, even though, in her experience, it doesn't work as well for her as brand-name Coumadin? I doubt anyone could tell me...including our elected representatives, who apparently haven't even read the bill they're supposed to be voting on...)

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 12:40      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
I doubt anyone could tell me...including our elected representatives, who apparently haven't even read the bill they're supposed to be voting on...)

Erbo,

That line is what concerns me the most. I have not read the bill personally, so I am going with second-hand information myself. But let's say that none of the senator's have really read and studied this bill. Then how do you know if either one have their facts straight. I mean we have Republicans stating Death Panels, and the Democrats stating that this will not be the end of private options. What if they are both lying? Or better yet, which one is the most uninformed?

It is sad to think that fervor is being started by people that may not even have a clue on what the truth is. And this is where the issue really is. Call it Socialism or Fascism, but it really is a situation where I can't see where the rhetoric fits the reality. And this is where watching these "protesters" at the town halls remind me more of a village mob on a witch hunt, instead of informed dissent.

I am not discounting your ex's experiences at all. But can you answer something for me? When you two were married, how did she obtain her medical insurances? Was it SSI, company based, or private? I think that says a lot on the quality of care also.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 14:06      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Erbo:
Concerning "second-hand anecdotal evidence from my ex"...

I consider this important, because it's from a source I trust

On Pamelas reliability as a witness, lets look at her one checkable statement in your original posting

quote:
Artos father who is not rich, he programs the machines at sawmills. 50% of his income is taxed right away
A quick Google for Finnish tax rates reveals that, even if we generously allow Pamela to be rounding to the nearest 10%, her 'not rich' father-in-law would have to be earning around $US 1/2 million a year to pay 45% of his earnings in tax. $US 275,000/year after tax is rich, even in Finland.

There are two obvious explanations for this discrepancy, either Pamela has a poor understanding of how her new country works, or she's in the mood for a rant and doesn't want to let the facts get in the way. Either way, her 'reliability as a witness' is suspect, because the one checkable statement in her posting turns out to be false.


quote:
I've lost count of the number of times I had to drive Pamela into the ER at Presbyterian St. Luke's at some ungodly hour of the night because her migraines had gotten so bad that only an IV administration of Demerol or morphine, along with Phenergan or Zofrin for the nausea, would help her,
The above is strong evidence in favour of the 'valid medical reasons' hypothesis. People like Pamela, with chronic painful conditions, are the 'at risk' group for developing painkiller addictions. Note: I'm not saying Pamela is an addict, I'm saying she's at risk. Managing that risk is a difficult balancing act, and it's hardly surprising that there's sometimes conflict between the patients wishes, and the doctors professional judgement.

You wouldn't want Pamela to end up like Michael Jackson, would you?

quote:

it pains and saddens me to hear that, not only can she not get that kind of help from the Finnish socialized health care system, but that they threaten to throw her into a mental hospital for even asking....


...our elected representatives, who apparently haven't even read the bill they're supposed to be voting on...)

<cheap-shot>
Um, have you read Pamela's posting closely?

There's nothing in there about Pamela being threatened with a mental hospital, that was her friend, who was mis-using her painkillers.
</cheap-shot>

--------------------
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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 14:12      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One person's experience is not indicative of the healthcare available in a country
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 15:10      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
And this is where watching these "protesters" at the town halls remind me more of a village mob on a witch hunt, instead of informed dissent.


Agreed.

 -

Question to those who think Obama's a nazi/communist/islamist/antichrist/whatever tyrant who wants to gas your granny.

What would have happened to protestors who turned up at one of GWB's public appearances with assault rifles?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 16:30      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
One person's experience is not indicative of the healthcare available in a country

GrumpySteen,

With all the emotional talk I have wondered when that video would surface.

I recall another similar video recording of an ER death around the same time. I was certainly troubled when I saw them the first time.

Along the same lines, didn't a Prudential Insurance company "death panel" pull the plug on Terry Schiavo?

And what about the CIGNA "death panel" that ordered the termination of 17-year-old liver cancer patient Nataline Sarkisyan? (Which begs the question, why did Steve Jobs get a new liver and not Natalie?)

I think people can make up stories of what might happen, but they are not as powerful as what does happen to people with with the way health care is dispensed around the world.

To me it doesn't matter if I see the video you post, Grumpy Steen, or the account Erbo shares. Both are more compelling than irrational yelling.

I think the point you make is valid, but at least both accounts are real.

Mr. Geek 2U

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 16:57      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Druid that guy with the assault rifle is interesting. Watching his YouTube video shows how very nutty his views are, although he calls himself a libertarian, I think right wing anarchist is a more accurate label. However as with much from the Right, nothing is quite as it seems, this interview reveals that the whole thing was a carefully staged piece of political theatre. They may be nutty, but they are also brilliant political propagandists.

None of this detracts from your central point, even in his own video he gets just about as near as he legally can to saying that this is a call to arms, and at the very least, this does not discourage any potential Lee Harvey Oswalds out there. It was disappointing to say the least that the people responsible for this sick and dangerous stunt got such a soft interview from CNN. I doubt this would have happened if they had been from the left.

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Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 17:30      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
And this is where watching these "protesters" at the town halls remind me more of a village mob on a witch hunt, instead of informed dissent.


Agreed.

 -

Oh my!

When I saw that photograph, I thought somebody had the silly idea of posting a picture of the Taliban menacing voters in Afghanistan!

But I see that is really a rally in the United States.

I find that threatening in a different way than most people.

First, President Obama says it is OK. I don't think he says it because he is foolish and wants to get shot. I think he says it because there is an army of guys in black suits pointing guns at the guys with guns! So at that level, I don't have the problem others do.

The real threat is what would happen if the guys on the President's side we're so preoccupied with the protesters with guns, that an assassin did get a shot off?

Scully and Mulder would not have to worry about a lone gunman that is for sure!

The Secret Service would start shooting the protesters with guns. The protesters would shoot at the Secret Service. Stray bullets would kill conservative and liberal protester alike. Oh the humanity!

That is bad enough!

But here is the frightening consequence for every other gun owner in America:

Ninety days later, with the bodies buried, lives not yet forgotten, and Nancy Pelosi as speaker of the house, President Joe Biden, with Vice-President Hillary Clinton, Sarah Brady and James Brady at his side and Ted Kennedy in a wheelchair, would sign the twenty-eighth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which would simply state ...

(ANYBODY WITH A CLUE FIGURE THIS OUT YET?)

[Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes] [Roll Eyes]

Mr. Geek 2U

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 19:58      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr Geek 2U, if Obama was assassinated, I am sorry to say that I think it most likely there would be a significant number of Republicans who'd say he brought it on himself, and the rest would stay quiet for fear of upsetting their core vote. In any case guns and the right to bear arms are deeply embedded in American culture, and I cannot imagine anything altering that. For good or ill it is part of what makes America America.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Mr. Geek 2U
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Icon 9 posted August 20, 2009 20:36      Profile for Mr. Geek 2U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well my goodness.

Lookie, lookie here.

A thread starts out asking why can't we have a reasonable discussion on health care, and the discussion devolves into a moot rant on guns.

Guilty here! I admit.

Guilty there, guilty there, guilty there all the way up the line. And this happened mostly with people who agree.

How can that happen? I can not even answer that myself. Something is very wrong. Anger must run deeper than all of us understand.

What do you think?

Mr. Geek 2U!

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 20, 2009 21:16      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Geek 2U:
A thread starts out asking why can't we have a reasonable discussion on health care, and the discussion devolves into a moot rant on guns.

Actually, it wasn't meant to be about guns, it was meant to be about the lynch-mob mentality that's being encouraged by supposedly respectable politicians and political commentators on the right in America.

The picture of the gun-totin' Tim McVeigh wannabee illustrates the hysteria generated by the right-wing fear campaign.
The fact that it's not a picture of a bullet-riddled corpse illustrates how unjustified that fear is.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2009 00:17      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
[  -

Question to those who think Obama's a nazi/communist/islamist/antichrist/whatever tyrant who wants to gas your granny.

What would have happened to protestors who turned up at one of GWB's public appearances with assault rifles?

Probably jail. During the Bush years you could get yourself cuffed just for wearing a dissenting T-shirt. [Roll Eyes]

Honestly, if people had just ignored that nutjob in NH instead of hauling him up to "explain" himself to Chris Mathews on national television, these scenes wouldn't be happening. But now every whack with a legal gun is out there parading with it. I'm sure Freud would have a few things to say about these people.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 21, 2009 05:42      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Geek 2U:
Well my goodness.

Lookie, lookie here.

A thread starts out asking why can't we have a reasonable discussion on health care, and the discussion devolves into a moot rant on guns.

What do you think?

Mr. Geek 2U!

It hasn't turned into a "rant on guns". I haven't noticed anything angry here, or any obsessional rehashing of the gun control debate. You raised the possibility of gun control riding in on the back of this. I said it was unlikely. errr... that's it.

Otherwise the guns have only been mentioned in connection with the main theme of this thread, the Right's unwillingness to enter into debate, and it's attempts to submerge any discussion under a sea of noise, and chaos, and to stir up hatred and fear.

Now you wouldn't be trying to stir things up yourself would you? Uh huh...I thought not, because that would be childish... yup.. I'm glad we see eye to eye on that one. [Wink]

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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