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Author Topic: Why is it Americans are so stuck on their constitution?
ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2008 18:31      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
February 03, 2008, 15:58
Are you saying it is a war because Sharia law is a bad thing?

That's close. The result of Sharia law is that certain countries:
  1. Take actions with international effects which are absolutely unacceptable to non-Muslim countries.
     
  2. Make it clear to non-Muslim countries that the "unacceptable acts" will not cease because these actions are "good", as per "the word of god."
 
To show how far "over the edge" these people are, consider journalist sentenced to death and the comments of those in agreement with the sentence:
quote:
"People should realise that as we are representatives of an Islamic country therefore we can never tolerate insults to reverences of Islamic religion."
Not all Muslims execute women for acts that the Taliban considered criminal; therefore, it seems very plausible that one could find Haddiths or scripture in the Koran to oppose the extreme abuse of women. (I'm Not a Muslim, so I'm making an assumption on that.)

The radical Islamic clerics and such are pretty predictable: Any foreign or moderate Islamic cleric which disputes their interpretations will be accused of submitting to non-Muslim influence, using scripture out of context, and probably apostasy.

These people are a threat to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The sooner someone puts an end radical Islam's rabid violence, the better. (That shouldn't need an explanation.)
 

quote:
Do you mean that the US should be at war with every country where Sharia Law operates...?
Actually, if the United Nations followed its own Charter .....
quote:
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/

... to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women ... to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, ...

... then the United Nations would be the ones to "insist" that each nation condemn the practice of Sharia law within its borders. Second, any organization or country using Sharia law to incite or prolong war would be recognized as threatening international peace and security.

quote:
... every country where Sharia Law operates, which includes if I remember correctly Saudi Arabia?
Yes, they're listed on paper as "friends," and yet they seem closely involved with smoking holes in the ground and lots of dead bodies.

That's definitely a case where having international law opposed to Sharia would make things much easier. For now, the US has to accept that "we-are-being-helped" by suicide-bomb-loving-lunatics that want to kill us.

quote:
How does this relate to whether the "wartime" restrictions on individual freedom are a worthwhile sacrifice?
Over decades in the name of "Tolerance," the ideology of radical Islamic violence has become thoroughly entrenched, and in some places it is the norm rather than the exception. (A "minor" problem was ignored until it could not be ignored as a global threat.)

Basically, the "West" has waited too long to start fighting "the War on Islamic Terrorism" -- if radical Islamic violence had seriously been treated as international criminal behavior before 1993 (when the first World Trade Center bombing occurred), then it could be possible that Islamic terrorism would be no worse today than it was in the 1980s.

In terms of technology, terrorist attacks which would have been considered virtually "impossible" 30 years ago are a simple matter for "copy cats." In addition, you have "ordinary Muslims" which have carried out terrorist acts, and the Internet has become a "powerful" tool for propaganda and covert activity, with plenty of people crazy enough to believe "god" needs suicide bombers.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2008 19:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please ASM, entertain us some more.

Tell us all about how Elvis defeated the Russians at Pearl Harbour.

Jihad!
Jihad!
Death to the infidel!
Oh, and your arse looks really big in that dress.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 05, 2008 22:27      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

Oh, and your arse looks really big in that dress.

/me starts digging TFD's grave

You're a dead man now...

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2008 05:12      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In previous posts you have hinted at this but now finally you are explicit. You believe the US should provoke a religious war with the entire Islamic world. You are not stupid so you must know that attempting to meddle with the internal affairs of all nations that incorporate Sharia Law into their jurisprudence would have this effect. A short glance at the history of religious wars should show why this is the worst possible plan to anyone with even a passing acquaintance with the real world. Why not just cut to the chase and follow the advice in the Randy Newman song I mentioned earlier?

Your arguments as usual are full of inconsistencies. You know full well that the UN is primarily a forum for international diplomacy, and never had pretensions to be anything resembling a world government, and so cannot on its own initiative insist that any nation do anything. You also mention the desirability of an international law opposed to Sharia, whereas you know (and I imagine support) the US opposition international law itself and certainly any law that it cannot flout with impunity.

So I suppose that my original interpretation of your argument wasn't bizarre enough, it appears to me that you probably believe that these restrictions on personal liberty are a natural and necessary preliminary to a cataclysmic world wide religious war. And you like to characterise my arguments as coming from a "lunatic lefty"? [shake head]

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2008 05:48      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
_________________________ Aren't we? I mean we want all of the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution and the Magna Carta, what a bunch of lefties.

The problem is that we are not able to pick and choose what laws we want to obey. Just like the laws of Physics every body obeys them, they may not know about them but they have no choice.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2008 18:39      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
... provoke a religious war with the entire Islamic world.
Was I wrong when I said "it seems very plausible that one could find Haddiths or scripture in the Koran to oppose the extreme abuse of women" (February 05, 2008 18:31)?

If you're a Muslim and you believe that the Taliban understood and followed Islamic law correctly, then let me know. In that case, every "Muslim" country should be executing people on a routine basis.

quote:
Originally posted by ASM:
The result of Sharia law is that certain countries ... take actions with international effects which are absolutely unacceptable to non-Muslim countries.

  • Fatwa Calling for Execution of Salman Rushdie (Feb 1989) - The leader of Iran, Ayatollah Khomeini proclaims that Rushdie, living in the UK, committed blasphemy against Islam, and offers a bounty for his death.
     
  • US Hostages in Iran (Nov 1979 - Jan 1981) - The Shah left Iran in Jan 1979. The Iranian Revolution was in February 1979. About 9 months after the "new government", 52 American diplomats of the US Embassy were taken hostage, and held for 444 days.
 
If you think that Iran's behavior fits the UN goal "to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours," then you have completely lost your mind.

To paraphrase their "Islamic policy":
quote:
Anyone that insults us, or insults our beliefs, deserves to die.
 
If you can't see that this is just as bad as witch-burning, and should not be tolerated at the international level, then you need to revise your statement:
  • From -- "I do value the law. The law I value can trace some of its roots back to Roman Law, which itself developed over 1000 years before it its codification into the Institutes of Justinian in 534 AD."
     
  • To -- "I do value the law, to include very bad and outdated law from a very violent and superstitious past."
 
FWIW: For as much as people in these forums have opposed murderers receiving Capital Punishment (Death Penalty), it would be absurd hypocrisy for the same people to accept executions for those who "insult" others' beliefs.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2008 20:53      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As Sitting Bull said to the Japanese on the beaches of Normandy, "Jihad! Jihad! Your arse looks really big in that dress".

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2008 03:45      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
I mean we want all of the Bill of Rights of the US Constitution and the Magna Carta

Ah, but the Magna Carta was written in much safer, more settled times, we could afford the luxury of basic human rights like Habeus Corpus then, we weren't at war with them nasty towel-heads.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2008 03:51      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM, you naughty boy! you are changing the argument again. I wasn't defending Sharia Law. As I said earlier I don't have enough knowledge of Islamic religion and culture to comment, (and I suspect neither do you, as I surmise that all your information is garnered from those promoting race hate). Your arguments are as every bit as convincing as the ones that say the world is run by a secret conspiracy of Zionist Jewish financiers, but perhaps you believe in that too.

I note however that you don't seek to deny my central point, which is that you believe that the war on terror must inevitably lead to a religious war with the whole Islamic world. I would be interested to hear from you how such a war might be won, without resorting to a "final solution". Death camps do after all have a rather unpleasant associations in the minds of us wishy washy liberals. I would humbly suggest that history indicates that this might be a rather hard trick to pull off. Your arguments seem to be based on the notion that if the leaders of your enemy, whether narrowly defined as Al Qaida, or perhaps more generally as the religion of Islam, are eliminated, then their followers will awake from the religious trance they have been held in, and happily surrender themselves to America and the joys of the consumer society, Coca Cola and MacDonalds. It could be crudely summarised as shoot the head and the body will fall. Rather annoyingly though, ideologically based struggles are seldom won this way, and religious ones even less often. The Romans ensured the survival and spread of Christianity by their initial persecution of it. The crusades weren't exactly a resounding success either. In more modern times Hitler and Stalin did not manage to wipe out the Jews, and even more recently when the US attempted to bomb Vietnam "back to the stone age" (as I recall the phrase), still those pesky Viet Cong kept popping back up, once the bombers had passed by.

Maybe my argument is once again based on your favourite "fallacy" that just because it has never happened before, does not mean it cannot be done. In that spirit may I suggest a simple, cheap, and (I would suggest) popular plan for ending this "war", appropriate for the straitened economic circumstance the US find itself in today. Head off to Afghanistan yourself. Head for the mountains. You will only need a handgun to start with because you will pick up eleven other weapons as you explore the mountains by following a clear path, along with various shields ammo and medpacks in convenient locations. If you are lucky you may even find other temporary powerups such as super strength and invisibility. You will of course wipe out most of the Taliban en route until you arrive at a forbidding looking mountain. As you draw closer, the top of the mountain will lift up like a lid, revealing Bin Laden's secret James Bond villain base, and out he will come. He will be easy to recognise because he is 50 ft tall, swathed in bandoliers and grenades with a big red line above his head showing his health stat. Just dodge around behind the rocks as he throws bombs at you, taking the occasional shot at him. Eventually he will totter and fall down dead with a tremendous crash, and flowers will burst into bloom all around you and a crowd of laughing singing children will escort you back to your helicopter and home, where a grateful American people will ask you to be president for life. You will modestly and heroically refuse dreaming all the while of your next death defying mission to save the world.

Well it hasn't happened before, but who's to say? Oh yes and a hint - don't use the rocket launcher for close quarters combat.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2008 19:26      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
February 07, 2008 03:51
Your arguments are as every bit as convincing as the ones that say the world is run by a secret conspiracy of Zionist Jewish financiers

Unlike "secret conspiracies," the proof that Islamic terrorists are doing immense evil in the world goes on and on without end -- BECAUSE THEY KEEP GIVING US THE PROOF IN PICTURES AND WORDS.

Go ahead ... say the story about a journalist sentenced to death by an Islamic court is a complete lie.   [shake head]

What are you thinking when supporters of "radical Islam" say "Death to America"? Do you think it's their Biggest-Lie-Ever-Told?
 

quote:
... You believe that the war on terror must inevitably lead to a religious war with the whole Islamic world.
(This is just theory)
A "religious war" with the Islamic world could be avoided if Islam would at least abandon:
  • "Death to Those Who Insult Islam."
      -- This is censorship through murder. It's not acceptable.
 
If they can't give this up, they will have earned the undisputed title of "bloodiest religion on earth."
 

quote:
It could be crudely summarised as shoot the head and the body will fall. Rather annoyingly though, ideologically based struggles are seldom won this way, and religious ones even less often.
The "head" of Islamic terrorism is the large number of "radical" clerics. Without their messages of "killing is good" and "god rewards those who kill the most" -- the motivation for murder through blind obedience to religion disappears.

If you like, you can argue:
  • "Muslims would kill people without promises of getting the highest place in heaven for suicide attacks,"
        or
  • "Muslims would kill people for disagreeing on the nature of god, even if tolerance was a virtue in their religion,"
     
    ... but that would imply "Muslims continue to kill, even when you take away reasons for killing."   [Confused]
 
quote:
... still those pesky Viet Cong kept popping back up, once the bombers had passed by.
You should reconsider the use of Communism to support your argument. The "ideology" was forced upon the people:
  1. Russians and Chinese provided massive support to establish Communism.
  2. In order for Communism to retain power, millions of people were killed or "re-educated."
  3. Order has been commonly enforced by threat of death (and actual death).
  4. "Secret police" and propaganda used to control the masses.
  5. Communist governments are totalitarian states -- all power is held by a very small group.
      (BTW: Don't say "democracies" are just like Communism because "all power is held by a very small group" -- it will make you look like a conspiracy nut.)

PS: Let me know if you think Communism has been a good form of government, I can't tell if you agree with it or not.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2008 19:59      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
the proof that Islamic terrorists are doing immense evil in the world goes on and on without end -- BECAUSE THEY KEEP GIVING US THE PROOF IN PICTURES AND WORDS.

Go ahead ... say the story about a journalist sentenced to death by an Islamic court is a complete lie.   [shake head]

No no no no no!

You're talking about the Democratically elected government of Afghanistan, they aren't "Islamic Terrorists" - they're the good guys.

America, Britain, Australia and other western countries paid (and continue to pay) a high price, in blood and money, to put them in power, they can't possibly be the bad guys.

Oh, and your arse looks really big in that dress.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2008 22:33      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
From TFA:
Sentenced to death: Afghan who dared to read about women's rights

_____ sentenced to death by an Islamic court.
....... an Islamic country -- we can never tolerate insults to reverences of Islamic religion.


Originally posted by TFD:
(sarcasm)
No no no no no! ... You're talking about the Democratically elected government of Afghanistan, they aren't "Islamic Terrorists" - they're the good guys.

 
So what does that observation imply?
quote:
The "Political" Scientist: In our first case study, a Totalitarian Theocracy charges people with the crime of insulting their religion and then executes the people.

In our second case study, the same people under a Democratically elected government charges people with the crime of insulting their religion and then executes the people.

In the third case study, the same people under a Monarchy charges people with the crime of insulting their religion and then executes the people.

In our final case study, the same people ruled by a potted ficus (with a funny hat on top) charges people with the crime of insulting their religion and then executes the people.

Observer: Does any other group of people have this problem when they form a government?

So, did I get your point right?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 07, 2008 22:57      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, of course you didn't get my point right, if you ever got anyone's point right I think the universe would implode from the shock.

My point is this...

The Bush regime (which you vigorously support) is spending American lives and taxpayers dollars propping up a government you describe as a bunch of terrorists.

And yet you persist in your delusion that we're apologists for terrorism, and you're the only one here who opposes it.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 08, 2008 18:24      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TFD (February 07, 2008, 22:57):
... propping up a government you describe as a bunch of terrorists.

Originally posted by ASM (February 07, 2008, 19:26):
The "head" of Islamic terrorism is the large number of "radical" clerics. Without their messages of "killing is good" and "god rewards those who kill the most" -- the motivation for murder through blind obedience to religion disappears.

I said it before: It's the religion that creates the terrorism, not the government.

Since you think "terrorism" is being supported by Bush, obviously you don't bother reading.
quote:
From TFA:
Sentenced to death: Afghan who dared to read about women's rights
  • The Independent is launching a campaign today to secure justice for Mr Kambaksh.
     
  • The UN, human rights groups, journalists' organisations and Western diplomats have urged Mr Karzai's government to intervene and free him.
     
  • Under the Afghan constitution, say legal experts, Mr Kambaksh has the right to appeal to the country's supreme court.
Summary: The "West" is doing as much as it can to discourage the murderous and psychotic behavior of some VERY backwards people.
 
  • The Senate also attacked the international community for putting pressure on the Afghan government and urged Mr Karzai not to be influenced by outside un-Islamic views.
     
  • Aminuddin Muzafari ... said "People should realise that as we are representatives of an Islamic country therefore we can never tolerate insults to reverences of Islamic religion."
FYI: [Confused]   The radical Muslims don't agree with you. They think the "outside" is trying to stifle old-fashioned Islamic activities like chopping-off-heads.
 
Hey TFD, why don't you tell the radical Muslims that Bush is supporting them by having the international community oppose the Islamic courts. They just might believe you!   [crazy]
 
quote:
Originally posted by TFD:
And yet you persist in your delusion that we're apologists for terrorism....

[ohwell]   That's because the your top suggestions for "fighting terrorism" are:
  • "Stop Bush."
  • "Fear the Christian Right."
  • "Fear the US Government."
 
... you seem real quiet about telling Muslims they can't go around killing people that disagree with them.   [shake head]

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 08, 2008 18:46      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Quoth ASM:
The "West" is doing as much as it can to discourage the murderous and psychotic behavior of some VERY backwards people.

George W Bush put these "murderous and psychotic" people in power, at great cost in blood and dollars, and has thousands of troops keeping them in power, at more cost in blood and dollars.
And you call a few mealy-mouthed words from diplomats "doing as much as they can"?

If Bush lets this journalist be executed, I expect you to either justify your support for Islamic Extremists, or drop your support for Bush.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted February 09, 2008 07:37      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TFD:
... these "murderous and psychotic" people ...

What should be done with "these murderous and psychotic people"? Kill them?

(Note: Only a few of them are like suicide-bombers -- by that time, it's a little late to kill them.)
 

quote:
And you call a few mealy-mouthed words from diplomats "doing as much as they can"?
You may not have noticed, but the UN seems to have a problem with people using more than "a few mealy-mouthed words from diplomats" to stop problems. Examples that come to mind are Rwanda and Darfur.
 

quote:
If Bush lets this journalist be executed
You must be completely out of your mind. Do you view everything this way?
 
quote:
Leftist Lunatic: The government lets murders kill people. The government lets thieves steal from people. All crime is the government's fault!!! AND ... the government is EVIL for persecuting innocent murderers and thieves!
You probably don't know this, but:
  1. Usually the people that actually kill get blamed first.
     
  2. If someone ordered a killing (murder), then that person gets blamed.
     
  3. ... and blaming someone thousands of miles away for "letting a murder happen" is essentially unheard of (except when "Liberals" don't want to blame the obvious killers).


--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2008 10:21      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
You may not have noticed, but the UN seems to have a problem with people using more than "a few mealy-mouthed words from diplomats" to stop problems. Examples that come to mind are Rwanda and Darfur.

A counter-example that comes to mind is Afghanistan.

You may have failed to notice, but there's quite a few American troops there, propping up a bunch of religious extremists they put in power, who are about to execute a young man.

Your "there's nothing we can do" bleating is, frankly, pathetic.

Do you really have such a low opinion of the capabilities of the US military? Do you really believe that the US Army can't go in to a prison in an area under their control and extract a single prisoner? Remember, these are real soldiers, the guys Uncle Sam wanted to keep, not a bunch of 'discards' like you.

And you have the nerve to wander in here accusing us of being cowards who won't stand up to extremists?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Mr Agreeable
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Icon 1 posted February 09, 2008 14:56      Profile for Mr Agreeable     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:
If Bush lets this journalist be executed
You must be completely out of your mind.
I agree, only a crazy person would think George Bush has any control over what happens in Afghanistan.
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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2008 09:12      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TFD:
And you have the nerve to wander in here accusing us of being cowards who won't stand up to extremists?

TFD, you are the LAST person that should try the Pious-I'm-Not-for-Terrorists Act.

In July 2004, you made it very clear you were against America and its allies, and that you agreed with the Taliban position of protecting Osama bin Laden ("Pawns of Mass Destruction").
 

quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
You may not have noticed, but the UN seems to have a problem with people using more than "a few mealy-mouthed words from diplomats" to stop problems.

Originally posted by TFD:
A counter-example that comes to mind is Afghanistan.

If the UN opposed action against the Taliban, it would have been the ultimate act of support for Islamic Terrorism, and it would have defied the right of nations to defend themselves.

FYI: You would be a moronic lunatic to argue that the Taliban did not pose an international threat by providing a safe-haven for Islamic extremism.
 

quote:
Do you really believe that the US Army can't go in to a prison in an area under their control and extract a single prisoner?
You must be really stupid if that's your best solution.

Let's analyze methods for saving people from unjust execution:
 
quote:
Method 1: Keep Bad Law, Send Military Team to Stop Execution

"Good" Part [shake head] : Sovereign right of a nation execute those disagree with the state religion is protected.

Bad Part: If 10,000 cases of unjust execution sentences occur over the years, then 10,000 missions by military teams must be sent to prevent the executions.
  • If news of unjust executions do not reach concerned parties soon enough -- "innocent" people are executed.

 
or
 
quote:
Method 2: Get Rid of Bad Law

If no one could be sentenced to death for disagreeing with religious dogma, then there would be no need to stop the execution of people who express different religious beliefs.

 
[Geek]   TFD, I'm curious: How important is the right of a religious court to execute those who disagree with official beliefs?

Second, since you avoided the question:

    What should be done with "these murderous and psychotic people" (in Islamic governments)? Kill them?
 

Next Part: New vs Old Government in Afghanistan
quote:
A counter-example that comes to mind is Afghanistan.
... propping up a bunch of religious extremists they put in power

TFD, you do a great job of expressing your hatred of the US. In fact, you almost make it sound like the old Taliban would be much better.

Let's compare:

Before US Removed Taliban from Power
  • March 2001: Taliban decides to destroy Buddhist Statues , over 100 feet tall, and 1500 years old.
      It took several weeks, using artillery, anti-aircraft guns, anti-tank mines, and explosives packed into holes in the statues, but the Taliban successfully destroyed the statues (in accordance with Islamic law).
     
    The words "Don't Do That" from around the world did nothing to stop the Taliban.
     
  • August 1998: Terrorist Training Camps in Afghanistan Bombed by Clinton
    quote:
    from a news article:
    A spokesman for the ruling Taliban, Mullah Abdullah, said that "bin Laden is safe and no damage has been done to any of his companions." Bin Laden has been living in Afghanistan with the permission of the Taliban, a fundamentalist Islamic group that controls most of the country.

    A few bombs didn't seem to give the Taliban any reason to give up terrorism, so they continued to protect bin Laden, and operate terrorist training camps. By the way, February 1998 (before Clinton launched cruise missiles) -- bin Laden took part in the issue of a "Kill Americans Everywhere" fatwa.
 

After US Removed Taliban from Power
  • Terrorist Training Camps Can Get Over-Night Delivery (of Bombs)
    Basically, the military shuts down terrorist training camps that train Muslims in activities like the Madrid and London bombings, or bombing markets, or making car bombs, and so on. Less training means the chance of a terrorist failing in his mission is increased.
     
  • Western Presence Means the Ability to Discourage or Prevent Abuses by Religious Extremism
    Under the Taliban, an Islamic court sentencing a young student of journalism to death wouldn't be news, and the student would be executed as the rest of the world lived in ignorance. Now, as Sibghatullah Mojaddedi of Afghanistan has noted, "the international community puts pressure on the Afghan government," and their politicians are "influenced by outside un-Islamic views."


--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2008 12:04      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
TFD, you are the LAST person that should try the Pious-I'm-Not-for-Terrorists Act.

In July 2004, you made it very clear you were against America and its allies, and that you agreed with the Taliban position of protecting Osama bin Laden ("Pawns of Mass Destruction").

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....

<pauses briefly to catch breath and wipe tears of laughter from eyes>

ASM, you're in fine form today, absolutely hilarious.

You've tried twice to re-open that tired old argument over your bizarre parody of my position, but you couldn't read a simple sentence then, and you've given me no reason to believe you've learned to read since, so I won't be taking the bait. Nice try.

One thing I said in that old thread that I will admit was wrong, when I predicted (about the US invasion of Iraq)
quote:
originally posted by me:
That's the whole fraud of the "Bringing democracy to Iraq" story...
...No way in the world they'll allow 'democracy' to put another Ayatolla in charge.

(and you agreed with me btw)

The USA is currently propping up an Iraqi government headed by "The Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq"

And, as we've seen above, they're also propping up an Islamic Extremist government in "The Islamic Republic of Afghanistan" (a name adopted after the invasion).

So I misjudged GWB there - I thought he had more sense.

 

 

Now please ASM, entertain us some more.

Tell us about the time J Edgar Hoover tried 3 bowls of porridge, but the first was too hot...

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted February 10, 2008 19:27      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TFD,

Of governments in the following countries, which do you object to most? Why?
  • Afghanistan
  • Iraq
  • Iran
  • United States


--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2008 21:46      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is this your "only the worst has done anything wrong" game again?

Not playing.

I've been critical of all of them, choosing a 'worst' would be difficult.

Perhaps you'd be willing to explain why you're such an avid supporter of The Supreme Council For The Islamic Revolution In Iraq?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 10, 2008 23:48      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TFD:
I've been critical of all of them, choosing a 'worst' would be difficult.

As far as I could tell, you only placed blame if you could blame the US......

... actually, I wanted to know "why" more than "who."
 
quote:
... avid supporter of The Supreme Council For The Islamic Revolution In Iraq?
I didn't like the "cozy" relations between Saddam and the UN ... bribes, kickbacks, weapons labeled as humanitarian aid.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 11, 2008 07:27      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________________________ I have been watching this debate degrade into general name calling, nobody on these boards is going to change anyones mind about their personal political view.

That said how about the Giants win.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted February 11, 2008 07:38      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
When I post here in politics, I am never trying to change someones mind. I think most poeple here know that. I don't think I could amounst these people. But writting ones argument helps refine it in your brain.

SO before you insult someone, think to yourself, how is this going to refine my argument.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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