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» The Geek Culture Forums!   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Politics/Religion/Current Affairs   » Why is it Americans are so stuck on their constitution? (Page 4)

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Author Topic: Why is it Americans are so stuck on their constitution?
Ugh, MightyClub
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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 16:15      Profile for Ugh, MightyClub     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Please ASM, entertain us some more, I could do with a good laugh.

Tell us all about how Paul Revere led the South to victory in the Civil War...

THat was a bit low, don't you think TFD? I'm as confused as the next person by many of ASM's posts, but your comment above doesn't seem to follow from ASM's observation that the US constitution is perceived to have been written by men much more enlightened than the politicians we've seen the last several decades.

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Ugh!

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:21      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sxeptomaniac wrote:
Why link to a copy on Amazon?

Haven't you heard... freedom isn't free! [Big Grin]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:30      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, it's French. I mean...come on...

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 17:42      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ugh, MightyClub:
That was a bit low, don't you think TFD? I'm as confused as the next person by many of ASM's posts, but your comment above doesn't seem to follow from ASM's observation that the US constitution is perceived to have been written by men much more enlightened than the politicians we've seen the last several decades.

I was just having a laugh at ASM once again demonstrating what a confused individual he is.

After prattling on about what a grand document the US constitution is, ASM attempted to quote from it, but actually quoted from a totally 'nother document (the Declaration of Independance).

btw - While the Declaration of Independance is quite a stirring document full of noble words about freedom (written by slave-owners), the Constitution is actually a fairly dry, uninspiring, legalistic document.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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password
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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2008 22:29      Profile for password   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by darlingangelina:
First Ronald Reagan, then Arnie, Now Hilary Clinton ! WOW!

if Hilliary Clinton ever becomes president i will seriously consider becoming a professional assassin.

and steen, about the government watching us all the time. wanna have some real fun?
step one: call a payphone from a payphone (have your friend at the other payphone)
step two: recite lists of trigger words back and forth, with random bits of obscure code, "the weasel runs at midnight". thrown in.
step three: return to your car and count the seconds until the police show up.

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no my password is not username

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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted January 24, 2008 17:25      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some people still like to hold a book in their hand and read. You can carry that one in your pocket in case you are at a party and some wise ass tells you that the only reason the right to bear arms is in the constitution is for hunters.

You whip it out and put them in their place.

That is why.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted January 24, 2008 18:27      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
RE: Isn't That the Declaration of Independence?

Originally posted by TFD:
Tell us all about how Paul Revere led the South to victory in the Civil War...

After prattling on about what a grand document the US constitution is, ASM attempted to quote from it, but actually quoted from a totally 'nother document (the Declaration of Independence).

[ohwell]   TFD ... How about advice instead...

Don't read faster than 10 words per minute -- your brain can't handle it.

If you had gone farther, you probably would have said something really stupid like:
quote:
Look! He said that the Constitution used the words "because god said so."   [crazy]
Somehow you see words after "favorite phrase" that are not there.   [shake head]
A sensible person with decent reading skills should figure out that "favorite" applied to all phrases in the language.

As for the phrase "because god said so" -- it's repugnant in any language, and from any place or source, when it "contradicts all reason." (IMNSHO)
 

Part I: What a Stupid Idea -- wait until you're in really bad shape
quote:
January 11, 2008, 06:05
It is crazy to believe that a small number of Islamist terrorists could topple any Western democracy,
... I would rather live in a world that was slightly more dangerous....

... in strategic terms they are merely theatre, rather than an attack that poses any serious threat to either the functioning of the state, or the economy.

Let's see, the US is at war because of terrorist attacks that have a rather obvious source.

Your view: "We" (Americans) should accept the danger (terrorists attacks) because they haven't toppled our government.

Here's a history lesson: No "Act of War" (an attack where the defenders retaliated with war) ever came close to
toppling the government, except where the defenders were immediately humiliated.
quote:
<wavy lines ... dream sequence ... many, many years ago>

French General: Zat iz it!!! Germans have attacked us ONE too many times! Now we wage war. Send our declaration of war, and let zem tremble!

French Troops: To War! To War! To War!

...... half an hour later .....

French General: RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!! RUN AWAY!!!

Maybe you think real life is like the "Rocky" movies -- your head may have been beaten until it looks like a plastic bag of vomit on a stick, but you'll always win if you're "the hero." However, believing that would make you a deluded idiot.   [Frown]
 

Part II: Islamic Terrorists -- Bad?

*** FOR FUTURE REFERENCE ***
In spite of the notion "people shouldn't judge other people," I hope everyone generally accepts that the overall behavior of Islamic terrorists and the "radical clerics" easily fits nearly every (reasonable) definition of "evil."

If they're "good" or just "ordinary people" then I'd like to know why so I can get a better point of reference on the whole good/evil concept.

If no one disputes "Islamic terrorists and their radical cleric associates are evil" -- then I'll treat it as accepted fact in future posts.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 24, 2008 19:04      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Chesty wrote:
You whip it out and put them in their place.

...

Nah... too easy.

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 24, 2008 19:07      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please, entertain us some more ASM.

Tell us about Abraham Lincoln's famous "I have a dream" speech that he made while stepping off the ladder of Apollo 13.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2008 13:37      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Please, entertain us some more ASM.

Tell us about Abraham Lincoln's famous "I have a dream" speech that he made while stepping off the ladder of Apollo 13.

 -
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2008 17:27      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM I assume the portions marked parts 1 & 2 are supposed to be a reply to my post. You are beginning to spin off again into your incoherent ranting mode but I will attempt to answer you. Once again you caricature my position and seek to answer questions about imaginary Frenchman and Rocky films rather than the real world, so I take it that you have no answer to my central point, that terrorism will never topple any western democracies, and thus the the idea that the Iraq war is a front line against islamist terrorists who will otherwise invade and conquer the free world is utterly ludicrous.

If not I would be interested to discover how you think they might achieve their strategic objectives, where do you think they might plan to make their first beachhead on mainland America for instance? How many terrorists will they need to subdue say Florida?

As to part two of your post, you really should have learned by now that accusing those who oppose the war of either condoning terrorism, or (your favourite) being apologists for Saddam Hussain is the most absurd insult, and that you should resort to it again only demonstrates how bankrupt your arguments are.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted January 25, 2008 21:01      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Part I: Tactics
quote:
January 25, 2008 17:27
Where do you think they might plan to make their first beachhead on mainland America for instance? How many terrorists will they need to subdue say Florida?

Beachhead?   It is idiotic to act as if terrorists use classic "force-on-force" military tactics like an amphibious landing at the Battle of Normandy. However, we can look at the last two attacks on American soil anyway:
  1. World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993 -- A truck carrying approximately 1500 pounds of explosives was detonated below Tower One of the World Trade Center. There was no Beach used for the bombing, no Ship used for the bombing.
     
    Note: Earlier you said "9/11 was a one off. It happened because it was a completely new form of attack, and was hence hard to guard against." It looks like the 1993 WTC Bombing was a "one off" also -- nobody used a truck filled with 1500 pounds of explosives to blow up the WTC Towers before.   [shake head]
     
  2. World Trade Center Bombing, September 11, 2001 -- There was no Beach used for the bombing, no Ship used for the bombing. They didn't wear Red Coats, carry Muskets, and march side-by-side in a straight line.
     
    Considering that their attack was successful, standard tactics would involve occupying the area with troops and building fortifications.
Do you want to suggest fighting terrorists the way World War II was fought? When a German saw Americans (or Brits), he shot at them. When an American saw the Germans, he shot at them too. The side with the most guns wins.

Why did you bother using the word "subdue" in reference to an attack on Florida? Terrorists only kill (generally speaking). In fact, they might not kill a single US soldier in the process. People might lose all faith in the ability of the US government to prevent Muslims from carrying out terrorist attacks. Not to condone violence, but the next course of events might be "a (not so) well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" will result in Muslims on US soil being shot by irritable Americans.

If you've figured out how terrorists will invade America, please surprise me with something no one else knows.
 

Part II: "It Can't Happen"? (I Feel Like I've Heard That Before)
quote:
my central point, that terrorism will never topple any western democracies
Is that based on the fallacy of "It's Never Happened Before, So It Must Be Impossible"?

As trends go, terrorism has gotten worse:
  • Late 1960's -- Aircraft Hijacking. Hostages would be freed. Destruction of a civilian aircraft doesn't change the government ability to function.
     
  • 1993 World Trade Center -- Major attack on US soil. Complete intent of causing the greatest number of deaths.
     
  • 1998 bin Laden Fatwa -- Open "declaration" of war: "We -- with Allah's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in Allah and wishes to be rewarded to comply with Allah's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it."
     
  • 2001, Attacks of September 11th -- Clearly several magnitudes worse than all prior attacks (but you can dispute that if you like).
If you discovered that 2001 was the absolute peak of terrorism, and that it's all in decline now, please share your findings. </condescending_sarcasm>

What was the deal with "kill the Americans" during Clinton's presidency? Was it because Clinton was a Psychotic, Islamophobic War-Monger?

If that's not the case, then regardless of how good the US President is, Islamic terrorists will always seek to destroy America and kill as many of our people as they can. To make matters worse, they gladly kill people that are neither American nor Jewish.

Maybe I got you wrong, and you meant "Islamic terrorists will escalate their attacks, each year killing thousands more than the year before." How could that mean no chance of government collapse?
quote:
Liberal Political Analyst: It's quite simple really. More attacks chip away at the economy. Citizens are murdered by terrorists in spite of cameras watching every inch of every street. It may seem like the country is on the edge of anarchy, but the government will be fine.

Man on Street: ... and why is that?

Liberal Political Analyst: Because America will launch its nukes and forever purge the earth of Islam with hellish fire and much glorious martyrdom on the receiving end.

PS: If there seems to be more seething anger in my post,
quote:
January 21, 2008, 16:45
In any event while in no sense do I mean to diminish the horror and tragedy of these attacks, in strategic terms they are merely theatre

... you "diminish the horror and tragedy of these attacks" and I'm beginning to take offense.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 25, 2008 23:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As Ben Franklin said while fighting off the Japanese sneak-attack on The Alamo - "There's one born every minute".

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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The Explainer
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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2008 05:44      Profile for The Explainer     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mr 65816 is so busy arguing with Mr Callipygous
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
If you've figured out how terrorists will invade America, please surprise me with something no one else knows.

 
that he fails to notice he's actually agreeing with Mr Callipygous

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
it is crazy to believe that a small number of Islamist terrorists could topple any Western democracy...

...terrorism will never topple any western democracies, and thus the the idea that the Iraq war is a front line against islamist terrorists who will otherwise invade and conquer the free world is utterly ludicrous.


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ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted January 26, 2008 10:24      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
RE: "Terrorism Will Never Topple Any Western Democracies"

Possible Defense Against Terrorism, "Solution" #1
quote:
The next course of events might be "a (not so) well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" will result in Muslims on US soil being shot by irritable Americans.
 
Originally posted by "The Explainer":

He fails to notice he's actually agreeing with Mr Callipygous.

 
Just to be sure you're not joking, let's verify:
  • This "solution" above does indeed stop Islamic terrorism.
  • This "solution" does not require any infringement on citizen rights by the government.
  • This "solution" could allow the government to cut the cost of domestic anti-terrorist operations to nothing.
  • This "solution" is acceptable and good.

.... just asking.   [Geek]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2008 12:20      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please ASM, entertain us some more.

Tell us all about how General Custer defeated Al Quaeda at Pearl Harbour.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2008 16:47      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:
RE: "Terrorism Will Never Topple Any Western Democracies"

Possible Defense Against Terrorism, "Solution" #1
quote:
The next course of events might be "a (not so) well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms" will result in Muslims on US soil being shot by irritable Americans.
 
Originally posted by "The Explainer":

He fails to notice he's actually agreeing with Mr Callipygous.

 
Just to be sure you're not joking, let's verify:
  • This "solution" above does indeed stop Islamic terrorism.
  • This "solution" does not require any infringement on citizen rights by the government.
  • This "solution" could allow the government to cut the cost of domestic anti-terrorist operations to nothing.
  • This "solution" is acceptable and good.

.... just asking.   [Geek]

ASM you are not an idiot so I assume you know exactly what you are doing when you distort his post to imply comically idiotic views that you know neither of us have expressed. I have to assume that you are doing this because you have no other answer.

If the only arguments you can put are ones as silly as this, may I suggest that silence and a dignified exit from this thread might serve you better. Most of the time even though I am at 180 degrees to almost all your views, you usually have one or two points that are valid, or at least that cannot be dismissed instantly. But debating with you in this thread has been like shooting fish in a barrel. I hope you are not ill. Otherwise perhaps you should consider taking some time to rethink your position.

quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:

my central point, that terrorism will never topple any western democracies

Is that based on the fallacy of "It's Never Happened Before, So It Must Be Impossible"?

Yes it is. The moon might fall on Manhattan some day, but I don't think New Yorkers need worry overmuch about it, and I don't think your government should nuke the Sea of Tranquility just - you know - to be on the safe side.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2008 17:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Calli,

your patience in trying to teach ASM some of the rudiments of civilized debate is admirable, but futile.

ASM isn't interested in debating with any of us.

Every now and then he goes off his medication, and drops in to GC to engage in a furious argument with his own imagination. You and I and everyone else at GC are simply extras in a fantasy movie that ASM is playing in his head, and like all good extras, we're there to be seen and not heard.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted January 26, 2008 19:37      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous wrote:
like shooting fish in a barrel.

nuke the Sea of Tranquility

The fact that you used both of these phrases in one post amuses me.

--------------------
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2008 17:45      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen I suppose that is a compliment, so thank you. I must try to mix some more tasty homegrown metaphors into my smorgasbord of clichés, [Wink]

Druid I disagree. I don't know whether he has changed or I have gone soft, but talking with ASM seems to be a good deal easier these days. He now often does try to rein in his ranting scattergun style, and you can even on occasion pursue and develop an individual argument or train of thought over several posts with him now. I also respect him for not indulging in personal abuse even though he himself is constantly lampooned, teased, and ridiculed. Consequently it behoves me to reciprocate that courtesy. None of this of course lessens the my loathing for his appalling politics, but it's nothing personal.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 27, 2008 19:39      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Druid I disagree. I don't know whether he has changed or I have gone soft, but talking with ASM seems to be a good deal easier these days. He now often does try to rein in his ranting scattergun style, and you can even on occasion pursue and develop an individual argument or train of thought over several posts with him now.

Thanks to the wonderful ASM filter I don't see much of ASM's drivel these days, usually only when other people quote it, so I may have missed some evidence,

BUT...

I'm not seeing any sign of this alleged newfound sanity in his postings above.

First, he demanded you justify (the exact opposite of your stated position).

When Explainer pointed out that your position was the same as ASM's (an Al-Quaeda invasion and conquest of the USA is not likely) ASM somehow interpreted that as a statement in favour of armed militias exterminating all muslims in the USA. [crazy]

Looks just like the ASM of old to me. [Frown]

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2008 08:03      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Islamist terrorists who will otherwise invade and conquer the free world is utterly ludicrous.
In case you didn't notice, the 9/11 attacks were intended to Kill and Destroy. There was no effort to occupy US soil.

Assuming that "they only want to kill us" (instead of taking control of the country), why should I consider this acceptable behavior?

Maybe you know something that hasn't been made public.....
  • Do you have proof that Islamic terrorists will not use nuclear weapons against the US?
     
  • Do you have proof that the US would not retaliate with nuclear weapons?
 
(If you answer "I Don't Know" -- then all you have is wishful thinking.)

By the way, the War in Iraq is because the United Nations chose to support a genocidal dictator instead of treating him like a criminal.

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2008 09:54      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Please ASM, entertain us some more.

Tell us all about how General Custer defeated Al Quaeda at Pearl Harbour.

I thought that was Al Bundy? [Confused]

--------------------
Shameless plug. (Please forgive me.)

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2008 11:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please ASM, entertain us some more.
Tell us all about how Daniel Boone defeated the Japanese at Gettysburg.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 28, 2008 19:08      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Please ASM, entertain us some more.
Tell us all about how Daniel Boone defeated the Japanese at Gettysburg.

Druid,

This is absolutely outrageous.

Anybody who has taken ASM seriously knows it was Captain Confederacy, not Daniel Boone who engaged the Femi-Nazis at Gettysburg, and if Captain Kirk had not been delayed by liberal Klingons while he was on his way to the battle, the world would be free today.

Please understand this.

Colonel Panic

--------------------
Free! Free at last!

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