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Author Topic: church
hal9000
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Icon 8 posted September 05, 2007 21:54      Profile for hal9000   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you’re a firm believer in the bible and its contents, I recommend that you stop here and just ignore the rest of this.

If you’re the faint of heart or have your feelings hurt because of differing opinion then you really should bail out NOW.

You have been warned!


My mom told me to never talk about Church Politics and Money.

Well I have all three wrapped up here.

First off, I was once a church going boy, and never liked it much. Too many rules and regulations to follow. They told me I have “free will” but you can’t drink, smoke or even take medicine.

More recently I have been getting prodded by people to join up?!
One set of folks visited my house with the firm belief that I needed to be saved. I find this kind of revolting in my own special way, but I was kind and told them to go away... [Wink] I wonder if loading the clip in the 45 was too much.

So anyways I went to this nondenominational church the other day and listened for about 40 mins before I felt that the inconsistencies in what they were saying were too much for me to handle, and got up to leave.
[Mad] This is when I was challenged at the door by the ushers as if I wasn’t allowed to go, like I had just gone to prison.

[Roll Eyes] They started with the 9th degree about my life and my soul. So being a bit tired, I take the gloves off and tell them that I believe in the one and only truth that “I know and can prove”, mathematics.
Then asked them to prove scientifically without a doubt the presence of their maker, and his or her power by demonstrations of levitation of inanimate object. They found this to be ridiculous in nature as they said I needed to have faith.

Now to move on to this faith part. I pondered this again for a moment, as I have in the past and found that in my experiences of life that faith had nothing to do with the miracles I have witnessed, they all could be explained scientifically as my knowledge of these events has ever increased.

So they tried the political angle, of the fact that the church and its members are stronger as a whole than I am as an individual, in resurrecting the principals of our founding fathers of this nation.
HUH?!! When the Founders wrote the nation's Constitution, they specified that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." (Article 6, section 3) This provision was radical in its day-- giving equal citizenship to believers and non-believers alike.

Lastly the part that really got my goat... the pastor and I had the trailing discussion about what my life would be like with the "Lord" and without. So we walked out in to the parking lot and got in to our cars... his was a 2008 S550 Mercedes.... huh? [Confused] For you those of you that don’t know, this is an $80K + car. So I stopped him and asked how did he afford this, his face went pale, but I give him credit for being an honest man. The church paid for it thru his salary.

Now before all of the thumpers out their start in on me with me being banished to hell. I need to ask a question, what about the Buddhist, Muslims, and the Jews? Are they wrong for what they believe? If so I am guessing they are going to that same place I am… That means I will have lots and lots of company.

So I have come to a few conclusions;
That church is for the weak minded that cannot stand up and challenge the statuesque.
That if you’re nice to them and they are not, then you don’t need to associate with them ever again.
Treat everyone equally, regardless of sex, race, color, or religious beliefs.
Be a better person, hold that door open, pick up that piece of trash and dispose of it properly and say Please and Thank you.
The bible is a good book to build upon to form a moral society, when no formal education is available.
And the bible is a book, like many others, however it’s been written by and translated by humans, thus it is flawed.

I feel a lot better now knowing that I still have my free will, to choose not to attend a church, so they will have fewer funds to put towards the pockets of biased politicians, and to building bigger and more opulent buildings to prove they are the supreme and dominate religion.

[crazy] I think am going to open the church of Hal9000 our idols will be the Cyrix processer and William Shockley (the inventor of the transistor).

You can send me all your money and I will heal you with my mouse, ooh by pushing you over in to the crowd as I yell out "Sync, Sync, Sync and be gone you evil demons of random code"….
That will be $19.95 on this one time TV special offer, not available in stores, so rush now to get yours before the healing stops.

Anyways the beer buzz from the second bottle is wearing off now so i am heading to bed.

--------------------
P.E.B.K.A.C. if you can fix this, you can fix anything.

Posts: 183 | From: VA under a bridge living in a van. | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 05, 2007 22:35      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Funny thing about heaven is that everyone believes no one else will be there. Which means, whichever way you cut it, everyone's in for a big surprise.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted September 05, 2007 23:48      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I've heard stories like that before, but never had that kind of experience myself. Smoking is discouraged in the church I go to, but there's nothing that says you can't do it. I've also had a discussion with a number of guys in my church about which beers we prefer, though we tend not to drink openly, as some of the other members are recovered alcoholics. Avoiding modern medicine is what every Christian I know considers a fringe fundamentalist belief (that would be the polite wording).

I tend to stay away from non-denominational churches, though. There are some good ones, but there are a number that are borderline cults centered around the preacher. Denominations can help to head off that particular problem, as ministers/pastors typically have a fair amount of training to go through, as well as some person or group attesting to their ordination. A non-denominational preacher, on the other hand, may be a high-school dropout who's just good at making people believe what he says.

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not going to say what your soul's destination might be. That's not my place. I don't think anyone else in these forums will seriously say any such thing, either, though I can think of a few that might come up with a good joke along those lines. From my perspective, you've had some seriously screwed-up experiences of Christianity.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
hal9000
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Icon 11 posted September 06, 2007 06:21      Profile for hal9000   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sxeptomaniac
quote:
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not going to say what your soul's destination might be.
Thats cool, I am very sure that when i die the lights go out, and i take a good dirt nap.

Oh and i will fart in the morgue. [Big Grin]

--------------------
P.E.B.K.A.C. if you can fix this, you can fix anything.

Posts: 183 | From: VA under a bridge living in a van. | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 07:31      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hal9000:


Oh and i will fart in the morgue. [Big Grin]

At least you won't have to sit in your own pew.

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 08:23      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hal9000:
Sxeptomaniac
quote:
Sorry to disappoint, but I'm not going to say what your soul's destination might be.
Thats cool, I am very sure that when i die the lights go out, and i take a good dirt nap.

Oh and i will fart in the morgue. [Big Grin]

For that comment, I will.

You are gonna burn in H-E-L-L!!!111!!!one111!

I am put off by most organized religion personally. I encourage my oldest to go to church. And will do the same for my youngest if he ever becomes curious. I made my decision in regards to the almighty and such years ago. But want my kids to make the decision regarding religion on their own and not because their dad is a filthy heretic.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
hal9000
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Icon 3 posted September 06, 2007 08:51      Profile for hal9000   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
CS thats damm cool of you, I just cant seem to bring myself to making my son go. I have him in a private christan school because he will get a better education than in public school

But they already have the "FEAR OF GOD" instilled in him..

thats kind of funny, if hes suppoed to be omnipotent and omniscient then why would we need to fear?

--------------------
P.E.B.K.A.C. if you can fix this, you can fix anything.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 09:09      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
on topic

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 09:25      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hal9000:
But they already have the "FEAR OF GOD" instilled in him..
thats kind of funny, if hes suppoed to be omnipotent and omniscient then why would we need to fear?

'cause it's the "beginning of Wisdom"? [Razz]
Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 09:27      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hal9000:
CS thats damm cool of you, I just cant seem to bring myself to making my son go.

Nah, I don't make them go at all. But see, I don't want them to ignore it because I do. My answers in life, may not be the ones that work for them. Plus I would rather my boys learn about religion, look and experience it, to make their own judgements about it. Certainly if they ask for my opinion, I will tell them. But I don't want to be te reason they denounce it.

I studied different religions, certainly not in a true scholarly fashion, but more of a seeking knowledge and some insight into it. And from there I decided what worked best for me. And I want them to have the same chance. Learn and experience and then decide what you want.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2465 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 09:51      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
Nah, I don't make them go at all. But see, I don't want them to ignore it because I do. My answers in life, may not be the ones that work for them. Plus I would rather my boys learn about religion, look and experience it, to make their own judgements about it. Certainly if they ask for my opinion, I will tell them. But I don't want to be te reason they denounce it.

Shroomy:

I hope that my comments here will reflect my intended respectful approach to you and not seem as other than attempt to inform from a different perspective. Here goes:

Letting your kids attend a church or any instruction in religion is a bit of a danger at their young ages. In affect, you are letting strangers tell them whatever they believe and declare it as 'truth'. Youngsters are quite impressionable and may accept it as such, having underdeveloped critical thinking skills.

You might do them a better service to explain your position and defend it - the discourse is good for them, for you and for the ongoing education and bonding of you all as family. Teach them what you know. It is not a matter of right or wrong - it is a matter of what YOU believe, who YOU are. Merely let them know what you stand for and why.

Depending on their ages and assuming they are curious and want to go to church(es), I would suggest that it may be wrong to prevent them. I would also be quick to suggest that you accompany them, the better to be able to critique afterwards what took place.

Just my opinion as a secular Religious. FWIW, YMMV, and all that fol-de-rol.

Respectully and sincerely,

gg

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 10:07      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
My eldest is just about 14 and the people he has gone to church I do trust as decent folk. Mind you I am not shipping him off with just anyone, so I figure that as far as religious experience they are going to be relatively safe. But as far as I myself stepping foot in a church, it would be a rather chilly day in Hades.

My 6 yr old has gone with his mother, but that has only been a handful of times in his life. So it isn't something I tend to concern myself with at the moment.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 14:05      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As many of you already know my take on the "religious" side of stuff I won't get too deep into it again...

For those that don't or are newer here - let's say "Be excellent to one another and party on dudes!" seems to me a pretty good summation of the key tenets of most of the main current religious philosophies...

Each to their own - I don't ask anyone to follow me and I respect (within the bounds of law and decency) the right of others to follow their own path to "enlightenment" or "salvation" or just "enough sanity to get by"

Some on this board are known to be devout followers of one or other religions - some are known to be out and out atheists and/or sceptics... That is good - that is why we come here, because (mostly) we can discuss such stuff without anyone having to draw daggers...

I don't necessarily agree with gg on all points but I respect his views and his right to express them and to be fair I would fight tooth and nail to support that right - and TFDs and mad though it might seem ASM's and CPs and basically everyone else's (previous riders applying)

I only get the "right on hump" about it when someone won't take NO for an answer or insists that they are right and no-one else has a right to question that view...

When my girls get old enough to want to explore the matter I will be open to discussion but I will put my point across (hopefully without prejudice as far as I can manage...)

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

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Wingless
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Icon 1 posted September 06, 2007 18:06      Profile for Wingless     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Wow. *Impressed* A fairly respectful & calm discussion about religion. No hellfire & brimstone (except in regards to Hal farting).

Note: if i say god, you may also substitute in gods/goddess/whatever for whatever you feel like, I just don't wanna type it out each time.

Note Note: My thoughts written here are a little disjointed, as my thoughts are in my head. >.>

Brief Background: Religion permeated much of my young life in the household in which I grew up. My mother and father are quite religious, and I attended weekly religiousness times with them. I'm not bitter about it. I have fond memories of events & times that were religious. And occasionally do enjoy returning to weekly religiousness times for comfort & lifely advice, if not for the actual religion itself.

However, now, I'm not too much of anything. I love learning about religions. I find them fascinating! But, almost in a "Hey remember Greek, Roman & Egyptian gods?" way. There is nothing so passionate as religious ferver (maybe political ferver? [Smile] ) and that amazes me. It's like a theater! And I enjoy the emotion. All these things so deeply held by someone that they would shun their own family, change their entire life, and perhaps even die over them... I find it curious, and must learn more!(Mostly about why...)

Having grown up religious has helped me, because I can be respectful & even understand where a religious person might be coming from. (There is a comfort in having a god that I am not capable of explaining unless to a person who also once believed in one.)

My current agnostic philosophy (and this changes hourly... as I am constantly questioning life the universe & everything (42)) is that the men & women who sparked the initial ideas behind all religions had good intentions & sometimes great advice & wisdom. (It's not so bad to take good advice from anywhere you can get it, after all just because a hypocrite says something, doesn't mean that it isn't true.) There are peaceful ideals to most religions that I read about. Which I believe is a good thing.

Unfortunately, humans are not perfect. So what once began as a good idea, warped into what I refer to as the unnecessary detail police. "Mr. Fred, our spiritual leader, once said he didn't like the color green, we shall banish all green things from our dinner plates." Not to mention all the mistakes religious texts must have. (I can't even type a sentence without using the backspace key... can't imagine a whole scroll.)

Seeing people use their religion as a reason to spread their own hates and fears, angers & sometimes even scares me. (What if they won & Mr. Fred became our President??? Crap I'm gonna have to start packing for Canada asap!)

Times like those I begin truly agreeing with Mr. John Lennon. What if... we could all just focus on being human for once & simply be okay to eachother?

I've thought about this extensively, but always get caught in a circle I've yet to find a way out of. We're all human. So we're all the same in that respect. But, being different is a good thing, because it teaches us all to be tolerant of things, to open our minds... if there were no religions, no countries, no differences, would we be able to be as open minded? Or at least to question the way we do things now? Maybe that's the purpose of all these differences, maybe it's not that one's right, and one's wrong, but it's the choice itself. The options. The ability to open your mind and say "this or that, or none of these are right." Basically what I'm asking is, if there weren't differences, would we know that there were choices?

I'm sorry, that's usually where I get stuck.

Thank you for being patient with me.

Oh, and when -I- die, I will turn into sparkly fairy dust & coat the sky with a new constellation.

Posts: 94 | Registered: Aug 2007  |  IP: Logged
hal9000
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Icon 11 posted September 06, 2007 20:36      Profile for hal9000   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[devil wand] In regards to my farting. I am quite proud of each and every one. (I wonder if that Verizon tech ever recovered?) However I am sure I will have to lie in my own pew. I wonder if the mortician is going to be disturbed by my pooh. [Not my problem LOL]

Wingless if I may be as so bold you learned respect from your parents.

Here are some more random thoughts that have occurred to me while reading the posts on this subject.

Most [Big Grin] very post so far has been filled with firm conviction on the view point of that individual. I find that comforting that people can still speak their mind with firm definition I applaud you all!

.................................

What we "do" defines us as individuals. I like the fact that we all need to get along to accept everyone as an equal. (This is where star trek had it right)

................................

I am merely an individual that seeks more than society has defined, however I find that the lines of demarcation have become blurred, and I seek (in an OCD kind of way) clearer definition.
I may not be right and I may not be wrong.
But my search continues, thus I learn from all the input I gather

....................................

I wonder if those fundamentalist have ever given a second thought to taking a life of a child or a mother. Or are they so brain washed that they do it without emotion or feeling.

That is a scary concept to me. I couldn’t just take a life needlessly. Now flip that to the threatening of my family and they are going to look like Swiss cheese. That makes me wonder am I a hypocrite.

.................................

Because we are a majority ruled nation. What happens if the majority denounces Christianity and accepts atheism? Do we go thru and change everything including the pledge of allegiance?

.................................

The end of my random thoughts. Time for beer [Applause]

Fundamentalism

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P.E.B.K.A.C. if you can fix this, you can fix anything.

Posts: 183 | From: VA under a bridge living in a van. | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Tom- geeking around

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2007 02:40      Profile for Tom- geeking around   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am proud of you man.
I am glad you found the stupidity behind it all and I fully agree with your conclusions.

Be happy that you started using your brain a bit more instead of accepting bullshit without thinking about it.

Thomas

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chromatic
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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2007 10:48      Profile for chromatic   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I write a fair bit of Perl, but I hate when people tell me that I can't write maintainable, secure, and high-quality code because once they downloaded a form mail program from MSA and it was lousy.
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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2007 13:41      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chromatic:
I write a fair bit of Perl...

Understatement of the year? [Wink]

I also write a bunch of Perl code, and most it /isn't/ line noise. [Smile]

My pride and joy, an administration tool...was [re-]written with a handful of modules, so it's extremely flexible, code can just be slapped together to use it, saving me a /lot/ of time. Proper code reuse really is a good thing. I was elated when the software it interacts with changed its LDAP base to OpenLDAP, and it took about 10 lines of code to change to the new system. (It also meant I could gut some bulletproof, but horrific, code that I had to write to work with the old ini-file DB, and just use Net::LDAP.)

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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Wingless
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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2007 18:17      Profile for Wingless     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hal9000:
Wingless if I may be as so bold you learned respect from your parents.

I agree, my parents did by example teach me to respect other people.

But, I cannot discount the influence religion has had on me. So, perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that many factors have influenced me, but that religion has given me a sympathetic perspective.


I think something that has yet to be touched upon is how atheists can also be seen as just as ignorant & stubborn as those who are devoutly religious. This may be a poor way of saying it, but they treat atheism as though it were a religion. (The irony.)



I am at this moment imagining an argument between a religious person & an atheist. Both of them angry that their beliefs are being questioned, both of them pointing to ideas that they believe are fact, both of them intensely thinking the other stupid for believing something different. Perhaps even each of them pitying the other.



Yes, yes, many atheists use science in place of holy texts. So at least there’s some sort of quantitative process by which they come to their conclusions. I’m not so good of an author as to fully explain my train of thought, but I think of science occasionally as I do holy texts. Where does science originally come from? Man. Man is fallible. (And yes, all science is considered theory even when it’s “proven” which is a nice thing. Super love that. But, that doesn’t stop people from pointing to science as all-encompassing fact.) But more philosophically, if man is fallible, and science comes from the man made idea that we can categorize & account for everything, might that idea itself be fallible? Might 2 + 2 not equal 4? Is 2 + 2 only 4 because we all agree that it is? (Ack! Everything ever is all in our heads… sorry overwhelming brain moment.) I’m positive someone right now in the world is thinking me stupid for questioning the fact that everything everyone (everyone being everyone in the world) is arguing over seems like a “My favorite color is blue. Well, mine is yellow.” idea to me.

This was not to say that I don’t think science can be accurate. (I love math in a way that is probably unhealthy.) But, I’m just trying to get a different perspective out there. Maybe all us science <3ers look crazy to other people. *shrug*

I just love seeing the other side of the coin, so I could take a long bubbly bath in these discussions. ^^

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted September 07, 2007 21:48      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hal, if you feel that way about religion, wtf were you doing in a church?

I've had discussions like that with people who knocked on my door on the weekend and wouldn't take "not interested" for an answer, but I've never felt the urge to seek them out on their own turf.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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