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Author Topic: CCTV / The nanny state UK
ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted August 12, 2007 11:18      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
August 10, 2007, 17:44
I would rather be paranoid than "sorry after the fact"

[Confused]   Did you mean:
  • I'd rather be "paranoid" than "sorry after the fact" because members of some group destroyed the World Trade Center (like on September 11, 2001)?
     
  • I'd rather be "paranoid" than "sorry after the fact" because members of some group bombed trains in London, killing 52 (like on July 7, 2005)?
     
  • I'd rather be "paranoid" than "sorry after the fact" because members of some group used a vehicle to fire-bomb Glasgow Airport (like June 2007)?
     
  • I'd rather be "paranoid" than "sorry after the fact" because members of some group bombed trains in Madrid, killing 191 (like on March 11, 2004)?
     
    No?
 

quote:
... paranoid ...
Does "paranoid" mean believing "they" are out to get you when:
  • "They" make death threats using mass-media on a daily basis?
     
  • "They" have a clear history of suicide bombings and hostage-taking over several decades?
     
  • "They" claim it's "a duty to god" to kill you?
 
FYI: If you think someone is "out to get you" because they make death threats against you and make repeated attempts to harm you, that's called "accepting reality."

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Serenak

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Icon 1 posted August 12, 2007 15:53      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am afraid you missed the point ASM...

In this instance I am less afraid of the "muslim/moslem/islamist fundamentalist loons" that haunt your dreams than the Saville Row suited soft tongued "soothsayers" that take away our freedoms one at a time in order to better "protect us" from said bogeymen...

Sure the suicide bombers and their insane "god told me to do it" friends are scary... KKK is scary... IRA and the other Irish paramilitary organisations are scary... ETA is scary - loons on a mission from god are just scary - PERIOD...

But you know what? We have a lot more to be frightened of in the "sneak in the back door" removal of our rights and privileges done by the men in smart suits with silver tongues "for our own good and protection" Knowledge is power... and we have far too much of the former for their liking - and you know what? To a large portion of the "control the nation" fearmongers you, me, KP, Shroom and all the rest of us are "freethinking radicals" who should be gagged, bound and eliminated...

We may never agree on a single point but this one - our right to seek out and disseminate information "as we see it"

I don't agree with a lot of what you say... I don't agree with a lot of what KP says... I sometimes agree or disagree with any/all the posters here (and hopefully vice versa) - but I totally support their right to do it... and I hope that whether or not they agree with me they hold the same thing dearest... our right to access information and comment on it "as we see fit" (within the bounds of decency and not disseminating "Hate" at least)

Take it from me - the quiet men in sharp suits are far far more dangerous to you and me and everyone else on this board than any loon that is prepared to kill themselves and 100 innocent people for "the cause" - no matter how frightful a human tragedy that is - because the "quiet men's" plan will lead to totalitarianism or a new dark ages.

Oh and fwiw I have known, and do still know, people who were/are high up in the UK Civil Service and when some of them are "concerned" at where policy is going you know it is not a good place...

That is my paranoia... take it or leave it - I will defend my right (and everyone else's for that matter) against this "creeping death" till they take me away or put me in the ground because it scares me a hell of a lot more than "terrorists" or "paedophiles" or "climate change" or "cancer" or the next pandemic of "Bird Flu" or any other thing - and not just for me but for my kids and yours and every other poster's on this board and many others....

Remember only one thing from history if you must... supporters of and agitators for revolutions are often the first to suffer the consequences of the "purge" that follows - Just ask Trotsky!!!

Oh and btw I still consider a lot of those other "threats" (the ones they like to throw up as the bogeymen we need to give up our rights to fight) as just that - straw bogeys to scare the "little people" into "doing the right thing" without thought or care for the consequences... if that makes me a paranoid I am happy to be one...

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

Posts: 1938 | From: Suffolk England | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
fs

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 01:23      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ben agrees with Serenak, too:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

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I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

Posts: 1973 | From: The Cat Ship | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 10:51      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Ben agrees with Serenak, too:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

While I think that the quote makes an important point, it is somewhat simplistic. The very nature of government is that it is the relinquishment of freedoms in return for security. However, I definitely believe that those who decide that they must have safety at all costs will only destroy their freedom.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 11:00      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Ben agrees with Serenak, too:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

While I think that the quote makes an important point, it is somewhat simplistic. The very nature of government is that it is the relinquishment of freedoms in return for security. However, I definitely believe that those who decide that they must have safety at all costs will only destroy their freedom.
But it is way to easy to use the guise of safety and security as a weapon to control the masses.

And men and women without honor will do so with not so much as a twinge of guilt. And anymore I doubt the that the honorable have survived in the modern ages.

See such as how maximile mentioned how he thought it was a good idea. Not to put words in his mouth whatsoever, but the general argument is "You will only worry if you are doing wrong." There is truth to this. I am not embarrassed by my actions in public, but this still does not mean that I condone the taping and archiving of my movements and actions for indeterminate amounts of time, by parties that are nameless and faceless.

I do not want safety in trade for my freedoms. It sounds more like a booby prize.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2472 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
maximile

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 11:16      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
...
See such as how maximile mentioned how he thought it was a good idea. Not to put words in his mouth whatsoever, but the general argument is "You will only worry if you are doing wrong."

I don't think that's what I meant, really. My point is that I'd be comfortable with it, but only if the video captured from the cameras was available to the public at the same time as it was available to the government. That way people could complain if they noticed that the cameras were becoming too invasive, and I think it would be a fascinating public asset.
Posts: 1085 | From: London, UK (Powys, UK in hols) | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 11:24      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not sure how that is much better.

1 or 1000. To have the ability to watch a person's every move still sounds like a poor trade.

But thanks for the clarification, max. I have just heard that particular argument about so many of these types of things that it seems almost like a de facto line. Makes me wonder if they have already won...

And if that is the case, how much are we gonna lose?

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2472 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
maximile

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 12:49      Profile for maximile   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
Not sure how that is much better.

1 or 1000. To have the ability to watch a person's every move still sounds like a poor trade.

I think it's waaay better. It brings it down to the level of public webcams, or those Google Maps street views. I love those; I think they're a fantastic use of technology. The things I don't like are the ones I can't use for myself; I can't be sure they're not looking into my house.

But actually, I think you might be right. However much I claim to be a libertarian, I think I do take some secret comfort in the idea that I'm not doing anything wrong. But I don't think that's my reasoning here. I just think it'd be cool to watch what's going on, and if the government don't do it then Google or the public will do it soon enough anyway.

Posts: 1085 | From: London, UK (Powys, UK in hols) | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 14:14      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by maximile:
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
Not sure how that is much better.

1 or 1000. To have the ability to watch a person's every move still sounds like a poor trade.

I think it's waaay better. It brings it down to the level of public webcams, or those Google Maps street views. I love those; I think they're a fantastic use of technology.
I guess that is a point where you and I veer heavily.

I also can be safe in the fact that I do nothing horribly wrong. (Not like there isn't one of us that has not shot through a light at the last second, etc.) But I value what little bits of privacy I have greatly. And each of these items, to me, seem to take that away. All of which unnerve me greatly. Sadly enough, much of it I have no say over. And that worries me even more.

While I am truly fascinated by the tech involved, I am equally concerned about what these 'advances' may detract from us. Does it make our world truly better? Does the convenience come at a price that I can live with?

Many people disagree with me, and that is their right. But like the saying goes, "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't after you."

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

Posts: 2472 | From: Utarrrrggggghhh!!!!!!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 14:50      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by fs:
Ben agrees with Serenak, too:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

Snakey right on the button as usual.

In the UK aside from some internments, we didn't give up these freedoms when we were being bombed by the Nazis. We didn't give them up when we were being bombed by the IRA, (financed of course by the good ols US of A). 9/11 was dreadful and tragic and just like Pearl Harbour it woke up an insulated and inward looking America. But unlike Pearl harbour there is no enemy you can go and punch out. You are fighting shadows. Instead the US is behaving like a brainless drunk woken by a kick to the head, who then takes a swing at anything that swims into vision because it makes him feel better.

And the really stupid thing is that giving up our freedoms and acting like paranoid rabbits gives the terrorists the most enormous morale boost, encouraging them to believe they are winning, and confirming them in their belief that our society is decadent and believes in nothing, and that all this fancy rhetoric about democracy and freedom means nothing when the chips are down. And you know what - if we carry on like this they are absolutely right.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 15:19      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous wrote:
In the UK aside from some internments, we didn't give up these freedoms when we were being bombed by the Nazis. We didn't give them up when we were being bombed by the IRA, (financed of course by the good ols US of A). 9/11 was dreadful and tragic and just like Pearl Harbour it woke up an insulated and inward looking America. But unlike Pearl harbour there is no enemy you can go and punch out. You are fighting shadows. Instead the US is behaving like a brainless drunk woken by a kick to the head, who then takes a swing at anything that swims into vision because it makes him feel better.

Erm... well, on behalf of the gold ol' US of A, I would like to apologize for installing all those CCTV cameras as we staggered around brainless and drunk?

Ahh... and for stumbling through that inter-dimensional rift back to the 70s and 80s when we forced the UK to start experimenting with CCTV monitoring.

Oh, and that report in 1994 ("CCTV: Looking out for You") that said that CCTV systems reduced crime in areas they were installed in that really got the initiative rolling? Yeah... that was us. We just said it was written by your government. We're bastards like that when we're drunk.

I'm glad we had this chance to set history straight and explain how our reaction to an event in 2001 had such dramatic effects on you all.

So um... sorry about that. Our bad. We'll buy you a beer next time you're in town and we'll call it even.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 19:44      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Steen sorry if my post was ambiguous, I did not mean to say the US was removing our freedoms. We've followed in your shadow into this stupid war on terror of our own free will. Your government may be stupid like a drunk or a baby, but it's not malicious. Not that a baby with your military capabilities is any less frightening than an overtly evil regime. Obviously over here the responsibility lies first with our government and ultimately with an apathetic and ignorant electorate. If as it appears, we here are more interested in Big Brother than politics, that's exactly what we'll get.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 13, 2007 20:45      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous:
Your government may be stupid like a drunk or a baby, but it's not malicious.

I don't know about that. Our goverment policies are increasingly dictated by the lobbyists who work on behalf of special interest groups. The most effective of those tend to be corporate interests and most of the resulting policies are aimed at improving the profitability of those corporations without regard to the well being of humanity and the environment.

While the overall appearance may be one of stupidity, I have no doubt that there are many very intelligent people who are not looking at the ramifications of what they're doing as they focus their intelligence on the isolated task they've been given.

If it was just stupidity, we could hand them Nintendo DSs with Nintendogs to distract them while we fixed everything *sigh*
</tangent>

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 15, 2007 03:55      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Among the neocons there are many able and highly intelligent men with very impressive academic careers, let alone qualifications. They were the driving force behind possibly the stupidest war in history, that nearly all the rest of us ordinary mortals could plainly see would end in the mess it is now. Some ideas are so brain crushingly stupid that only the most rarified of intellectuals can entertain them. Extreme cleverness and quite heroic levels of stupidity are very compatible.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted August 15, 2007 04:56      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
They were the driving force behind possibly the stupidest war in history, that nearly all the rest of us ordinary mortals could plainly see would end in the mess it is now. Some ideas are so brain crushingly stupid that only the most rarified of intellectuals can entertain them. Extreme cleverness and quite heroic levels of stupidity are very compatible.

Not stupidity, arrogance.

Have a look at their pre-war estimates of how the war would go.
Quick summary:
1. Invade Iraq.
2. Bask in the adulation of a grateful Iraqi public.
3. Reduce troop numbers to 5,000 by December 2006


Now have a look at this New Scientist article
quote:
From TFA:
Overconfidence is a disadvantage in war, finds study

Overconfident people are more likely to wage war but fare worse in the ensuing battles, a new study suggests...


...Players who made higher-than-average predictions of their performance – those who had higher confidence - were more likely to carry out unprovoked attacks. These warmongers ranked themselves on average at number 60 out of the 200 players, while those who avoided war averaged out at the 75 position.

A further analysis showed that people with higher self-rankings ended up worse off at the end of the game...

...“One wishes that members of the Bush administration had known about this research before they initiated invasion of Iraq three years ago,” he adds. “I think it would be fair to say that the general opinion of political scientists is that the Bush administration was overconfident of victory, and that the Iraq war is a debacle.”



--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted August 15, 2007 15:05      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think any of us are really disagreeing with each other here. These are all different ways of looking at the same situation.

I do however recall that before the invasion, once I realised that our governments did not know something we did not, that not only was I appalled, but also just utterly mystified as to how any intelligent person with the slightest grasp of history could imagine this might work. Later I discovered that the neocons had developed a radically different theory about the fundamental ideological conflicts that they argued was the driver of post WW2 history, and this let them ignore all common sense and the obvious lessons of Vietnam etc.

But you are also right Druid, it is an old story, one the ancient Greeks would have recognised well, how Hubris is inevitably followed by his dark twin Nemesis.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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