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Author Topic: Is Memorial Day Anti-Gay
macnoid
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 12:40      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
An ambiguous interpretation of one of the recent JoT comics had me add my thoughts to the Polar Bear posting. In that thread I posted about my perception of the US Memorial Day holiday as being anti-gay and this caused some controversy. I decided to take this discussion on the holiday (rather than the comic) to the politics forum for further discussion. One word of warning, though I am gay I am not an activist and will likely not be able to argue with precision and completeness. What I say here is strictly my opinion grown out of listening to others. If you want to quote my thoughts to foment an AM talk radio morning show or similar purpose, please don't. There are others who can make this case more coherently than I can.

Anyway, let's get started. Ashitaka wrote:
quote:
Macnoid, lay off the drugs.... but seriously, I saw absolutley nothing homosexual about todays JoT. Nor do I see anything abusive to homosexuals in the celabration of Memorial day.

The soldiers who fought and died in europe in WWII liberated homosexuals as well as jewish people from the concentration camps.

Just because the military in the US is intollerent of gays doesn't make every thing they do "anti-gay".

A subsequent post shortly thereafter added
quote:
Is everything associated with the military anti-gay becuase of the millitary's anti-homosexual recruiting? Is toys for tots anti gay?
First, the problem isn't with Memorial Day itself but with the two-faced celebration of it. The day is all about celebrating the sacrifices of our soldiers in uniform; especially the soldiers who gave their lives in service to their country. The day keeps growing in meaning. Originally, it was Decoration Day of Union soldiers in the civil war. It was expanded to all wars after WWI. It then became an official holiday in the sixties (with all of the pomp and car races that embodies). Now it's a day of celebration for the sacrifices those who serve in the military make. I'm fine with all of these definitions. Holidays take their meaning (or not) because of the celebrants; that's how it should be.

But lets talk about Private First Class Barry Winchell at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. He was murdered by members of the military because he was gay. He sacrificed his life in a way that's cruel, pointless, unjust, yet seemingly condoned by the military's lack of response. It's a sacrifice that shouldn't have been made. But it's apparently not appropriate to raise his name on Memorial Day. Be silent or you'll be judged as trying to take away the celebration from others.

Talking about gay issues, even in the context of the military sacrifices, on Memorial Day is seen as trying to "politicize" the day. Trying to co-opt the celebration and inject a different code of ethics that the military doesn't share. Even for people outside of the military, bringing up the issue of someone being gay who made military sacrifices will get you shunned as being unpatriotic. You are perceived as taking something away from others by bringing up the topic on Memorial Day.

Does a gay person really make any sacrifices beyond a heterosexual soldier just by being gay? In my opinion, yes. The act of hiding and keeping quiet ones sexuality from others is a stigma that can't be mentioned or recognized in the military even after death (when it would cause no threat to order in the troops). Sexuality is often one of the biggest parts of a person's life (providing motivation, morale, and meaning), it is clearly a sacrifice for our soldiers still in uniform to be silent while they serve.

Why does the military resist acceptance of homosexuals? We already see that the actual practice of sex acts aren't a problem because we have men and women serving side-by-side. In my opinion, the prejudice of homosexuals keeps being nurtured because it's a bogeyman that the military uses. It's talked up as an embodiment of weakness. It's used to characterize and stigmatize a faceless, un-American enemy. It's an embodiment of immorality. To have to serve with open homosexuals in the military is like having to suddenly accept "japs" and "krauts" after in 1946. You have the problem of dissension of having to serve with a bogeyman you created and exploited, as well as the issue of what stereotype are you going to use for future bogeymen.

The question of "Is everything associated with the military anti-gay " (e.g. Toys For Tots) gets into a different area. That get's into how we as Americans let the military define the ethics of the public at large beyond the "special" ethics we say is okay for enforcement of the military charter.

On March 13 in an interview to the Chicago Tribune, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Peter Pace declared "I believe homosexual acts between two individuals are immoral and that we should not condone immoral acts," it's clear that anti-gay policies aren't just about morale in the troops or maintaining discipline. This is about some kind of moral order that requires gay people to be equated with adulterers, thieves, and killers. This interview and many other things the military does are all about promoting military ethics.

Though giving toys to needy kids is a noble thing, it's outside the scope of the military's charter to enforce and protect the nation's sovereignty. At worst, it's a nice but irrelevant program that should be ripe for budget cuts or being passed off to a private military support organization. It hasn't been cut so if you try to attach any relevance to it, the Toys for Tots program is an effort to bribe families to accept the military's code of ethics. A code which Peter Pace says holds no place for homosexuals. Churches and community centers do the same thing at the holidays. This isn't a revelation. To me, promoting a code of ethics the general public should accept seems out of bounds for what the military should be doing.

But lets put this corruption and two-faced celebration of Memorial Day aside...

Besides remembering Barry Winchel's murder on Monday, as a gay geek I will be raising a glass to the celebration of the memory of Rear Admiral Grace Murray Hopper. She was a pioneer in computer programming. She was a rear admiral in the US Navy. And she was a lesbian. She did not have the opportunity to give her life in sacrifice for her country, and her death in 1992 was quite ordinary. But she clearly made sacrifices in her life to serve her country. There are some things in her life that I'll never understand (her promotion of COBOL) but she was clearly a genius devoted to her work and to the military. The military needs more women like Rear Admiral Grace Hopper. And it would be a better place if it accepted their service openly.

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RavenStark
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 15:23      Profile for RavenStark     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't think Memorial Day is Anti-Gay. People are free to make of it what they will. I know many of those who died in WWII, had to have been gay and I honor them and all the other decent military people who gave their lives in that war. Besides, most people are not celebrating the military's discrimination against gays.

The military is anti-gay since it explicitly discriminates against gays. (Don't ask, don't tell, is just a big cop-out.) They also do other bad stuff like blindly following Bush into the illegal war in Iraq. For those reasons and others, I do not publicly celebrate Memorial Day. Instead, I privately remember decent people like my grandfather who fought in WWII.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 16:09      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
macnoid wrote:
But lets talk about Private First Class Barry Winchell at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. He was murdered by members of the military because he was gay. He sacrificed his life in a way that's cruel, pointless, unjust, yet seemingly condoned by the military's lack of response. It's a sacrifice that shouldn't have been made. But it's apparently not appropriate to raise his name on Memorial Day. Be silent or you'll be judged as trying to take away the celebration from others.

Perhaps it's just my perception, but Memorial Day is a day for remembering those who have died, not for incriminating those who were at fault. It's quite appropriate to remember Barry Winchell, but it's not as appropriate to explore the idiocy of military harassment policies on Memorial day.

Though giving toys to needy kids is a noble thing, it's outside the scope of the military's charter to enforce and protect the nation's sovereignty. At worst, it's a nice but irrelevant program that should be ripe for budget cuts or being passed off to a private military support organization.

Actually, it's funded entirely by donations of money and toys according to their annual financial report. It's a nice PR bit for the Marines and it does give poor children a shot at a nice toy for Christmas, which is a good thing.

But she clearly made sacrifices in her life to serve her country. There are some things in her life that I'll never understand (her promotion of COBOL) but she was clearly a genius devoted to her work and to the military. The military needs more women like Rear Admiral Grace Hopper.

COBOL made a lot more sense in 1959 when everyone else was using assembly to program computers.

She is one who deserves a toast, though, so I'll raise a glass too.

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Just_Jess_B

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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 20:06      Profile for Just_Jess_B   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*sigh*

I appreciate the gay issue. I believe that homosexuality should be more than "tolerated", it should be accepted.

What bothers me is that people NOT ONLY insist on taking a sexual choice and making it a political issue, they make it the core of their identity! Yes, the Christian Right are a bunch of hate-mongering zealots. That doesn't mean you should shove your sexuality down people's throats.

And yes, as an actual bisexual woman (not bicurious, and currently not bi-active because I have a S.O.), I have been lambasted by gays for not being one or the other. Bisexuality, however, is not my identity. I am a woman, a college graduate, an author, a mother, a wife, a bad housecleaner, a fan of Indie music . . .

my sexuality does not define me. Nor should anyone's define them. If you define yourself by who you screw, then you're missing the point of being yourself.

That said, the points made in this very long diatribe are valid. But please -- look in a less open-minded forum next time to cut-and-paste your ginormous rant. We get it about the freedom of sexuality. We just don't think it should define us.

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Double D
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 21:11      Profile for Double D   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RavenStark:
They also do other bad stuff like blindly following Bush into the illegal war in Iraq.



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Double D
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 21:15      Profile for Double D   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RavenStark:
They also do other bad stuff like blindly following Bush into the illegal war in Iraq.

(Sorry about the empty reply just above, there. Clicked wrong place.)

I know this is off topic, but it is the military's job to follow the president's orders. To do otherwise means mutany, treason, or coup. Congress, on the other hand, has the responsibility to question and hold accountable the president. They get more blame from me for blind following than the military.

Okay, that was it. Back to the topic.

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Double D
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Icon 1 posted May 26, 2007 21:32      Profile for Double D   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't find Memorial Day to be anti-gay any more than it is anti-liberal. It doesn't have to be either and shouldn't be. I, as a liberal, can make it anti-liberal by talking about the liberal agenda at a Memorial Day observance, because no one wants to hear that then. If I go to watch the parade with a sign that says "Stop the war!" some folk will agree and some will be mad as hell. Not because they want war, but because I'm missing the point of the parade. We could debate about how ending the war is a great way to honor the troops, but is that really what should happen at the parade? Probably not. I mean, what if I went to a funeral for someone who died of cancer with a sign and a petition to increase cancer reaearch funds. Some would agree and some would be mad as hell because it's the wrong time and place to discuss it. It's a funeral, for God's sake, not budget meeting. So, yes, cancer is bad, war is bad, anti-gay violence is bad. Absolutely. But there are appropriate times and places to make a stink.

I have heard it said that the response you get is the message you send. If people are getting upset at what you bring to Memorial Day, maybe you aren't sending the message you think you are, or then again, maybe you are. Maybe you mean to rile them up and feel confrontational yourself, and they are responding to your "subtext" more than your content.

I dunno. It's late and I'm just making this up.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 01:11      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I haven't read a damn thing here...it reeks of a ASMv2.0: The Anti-Society Edition.

I'm also in a ridiculously good mood, and can't bear to have it mucked up by a stupid series of rants that make no sense. I should probably go to bed now, but I'll click "Add Reply" first. [Razz]

...and quickly skim my Google Reader feeds...

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 09:03      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
I haven't read a damn thing here...it reeks of a ASMv2.0: The Anti-Society Edition.

I'm also in a ridiculously good mood, and can't bear to have it mucked up by a stupid series of rants that make no sense...

My sediments exactly! Dude - you just said what I lack for to explain in thinking of stuff and get these thinkings out for words and thoughts and things that I could if maybe words and sayings and things was a good thing that I could do and knew how it could be done right without getting things in the way of what my head likes to -- you know -- get out of my mouth -- and stuff.

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macnoid
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Icon 7 posted May 27, 2007 09:15      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
*sigh*

I appreciate the gay issue. I believe that homosexuality should be more than "tolerated", it should be accepted.

I much appreciate this attitude. One note of inconsequence is that I'll probably write more about gays in the general populace than in the military in this note. It's only my second note in this thread and it's already off-topic :-)

quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
What bothers me is that people NOT ONLY insist on taking a sexual choice and making it a political issue, they make it the core of their identity!

I have a (heterosexual) mentor in my public speaking group who is a doctor and a husband of a very nice woman but who never wants to be referred to as anything other than by his rather formal sounding first name (no doctor, no 'husband', no abbreviations, ever). One day I heard him explain why. He said that this was his second marriage. He had had a beautiful story book family before; wife, married son, (maybe other family members, I don't recall) but one night when he was driving them all home during a thunderstorm, he woke up as the only survivor of what was probably a lightning strike. In one night all those terms were gone. After that he said it was hard for him to be defined by terms like dad, father, and husband. He had let those terms define him and he didn't like how such a big part of him could be undefined so quickly. From then on, he never wanted to be referred to as a doctor again or any term other than his first name. People kept trying to tack labels and terms onto him, but he doesn't want or acknowledge them. Since his first name is what he's most likely to remember should he come down with Alzheimer's or some other dementia, it's the only way he chooses to define himself today.

We have no terms in the US for committed same-sex life partners like "wife" or "husband" that won't get you laughed at for using. There's the mouthful "significant other" or it's abbreviated pronunciation "esso" which is just about on par with fiance in legal meaning but still draws blank stares from people. Reactions to books like "Heather has Two Mommies" show many are uncomfortable by these traditional heterosexual terms being used in new ways.

It's hard to define one's place in society at all, period. It gets harder if you aren't heterosexual and must use different vocabulary (or not). Trying to define the same roles in the same ways which a heterosexual defines himself to others in society is difficult because it involves new terms or of adding new meanings to old ones.

quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
Yes, the Christian Right are a bunch of hate-mongering zealots. That doesn't mean you should shove your sexuality down people's throats.

But that doesn't mean that gay people should be ostracized for trying to use terms to define themselves any more than heterosexuals are. I my area, the only people I know who choose to define themselves by their sexual role are heterosexual. (stay at home moms and dads). Expressing one's sexuality apparently is relevant and expected of heterosexuals in society. Terms like wife, fiance, ex-wife, second wife, mother, adopted mother, and step-mother are terms that have sexual connotations (some clearer that others). In or out of a relationship I'm stretched in my vocabulary to come up with a similar expressive yet inoffensive definition of myself and/or my relationship status.

quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
And yes, as an actual bisexual woman (not bicurious, and currently not bi-active because I have a S.O.), I have been lambasted by gays for not being one or the other.

I find this sad that you were lambasted by gays. I don't know the circumstances, nor have I experienced similar situations. I have seen gay people strike out at sexual attitudes they don't understand like polygamy or transgendered issues because they fear being tarred with the same brush of misunderstanding.

I know enough about bisexuality to know that it is different from homosexuality and certainly can't be simplified by forcing someone to "pick a side". Variations in sexuality strike people with fear and uncertainty even if they come from a "variant" themselves. I'm still sorry prejudice happens to anyone.

quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
Bisexuality, however, is not my identity. I am a woman, a college graduate, an author, a mother, a wife, a bad housecleaner, a fan of Indie music . .

Other than the housecleaner, all of that is wonderful. But being a woman, a mother, and a wife are usually labels indicative that you have a vagina, you have exclusive relationship with a man, you've engaged in heterosexual sex, lost your virginity, and had a baby. Whether true or not, that becomes part of your identity when you use these common labels.

Because they're so common, they may not draw attention to themselves, but try to think of a similar situation from the perspective of hiding this information from others. Trying to hide all indicators of having had sex. Trying to hide the gender of your partner. Trying to hide any label that might get you pre-judged by people in society. There are a lot of labels you have to be careful about and to use precisely, lest you later be called a liar or hypocrite.

You may have had to walk this minefield of self-description, but if not just imagine if the person you loved with all your heart and soul was of the same gender. That's when the choices get ugly. Hide your partner, your relationship, and your love in frigid terms like "roommate" and "partner" or come out of the closet and get laughed at when you say "I'm his husband" or "I'm her wife" when you're trying to get your pet checked out of the vet clinic or the other mundane tasks that happen 50 times per day. It's frustrating.

quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
my sexuality does not define me. Nor should anyone's define them. If you define yourself by who you screw, then you're missing the point of being yourself.

I agree; this kind of definition seems shallow. There were a number of guys in the fraternity I almost pledged in college who defined themselves solely by the "poon" they claimed to get. Tallies and documentation (in the form of used condoms) were preserved and available to establish their place in the hierarchy of the frat house. Though gross, these weren't bad guys, just guys who were testing their new-found sexual freedom (in this case, straight guys leaving home). It was their experimental period where the use of their genitals validated their self image. Most people (whatever their orientation) grow out of that with a little time. I think maturing happens a bit faster with heterosexuals (since the behavior is reinforced) than with homosexuals (when the behavior is disparaged). It IS kind of weird to see a 40 year old person go through this stage like an adolescent once he or she has finally come out to themselves. But it happens for the same reasons. Fortunately after a period of maturation, I don't even think Hooter's girls try to define their lives by the sex acts they participate in.

quote:
Originally posted by Just_Jess_B:
That said, the points made in this very long diatribe are valid. But please -- look in a less open-minded forum next time to cut-and-paste your ginormous rant. We get it about the freedom of sexuality. We just don't think it should define us.

Sincerely: Thanks for agreeing that there was some validity in my writing. That is appreciated from someone who is a published writer.

Just for the record, I did not cut and paste my diatribe. I wrote it all in the small confines of the forum text entry box. It's long and wordy (as I warned at its start). But this was not plagiarized or concocted a some sort of serial diatribe posted to lots of different forums. I was asked to back-up my assertion that there could be anything regarding Memorial Day that was anti-gay and I made an attempt to do so.

Argh! yet again I've gone off with another diatribe. Sorry, I've got to work on that. Simple. Short. To the Point. To whoever made it this far, thanks for reading.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 09:41      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dragonman, Spungo: I'm with you two on this one. I'm in a horribly good mood and dont care to muck it up tonight. Plus I have a 4 hour mounted patrol to blindly lead tonight.

If I throw a Straight Pride parade, do you think anyone would care?

Note: If you can't say what you have to say in a few sentences I'm not going to read your paragraphs of post, 'less I know you of course.

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macnoid
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Icon 7 posted May 27, 2007 11:48      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Double D:
I don't find Memorial Day to be anti-gay any more than it is anti-liberal. It doesn't have to be either and shouldn't be.

True, as I said, the celebrants define the meaning of the holiday. Personally I think Memorial Day lost meaning for many people when it became a federal holiday of Indy 500 and other start of summer activities rather than a day of making time to go wash and spruce up loved ones' tombstones.
quote:
Originally posted by Double D:
I, as a liberal, can make it anti-liberal by talking about the liberal agenda at a Memorial Day observance, because no one wants to hear that then. If I go to watch the parade with a sign that says "Stop the war!" some folk will agree and some will be mad as hell. Not because they want war, but because I'm missing the point of the parade.

No doubt. That's why I'm not at a parade with a bullhorn and picket-sign. My goal is to engender thought rather than spectacle. As others have pointed out, I do have a problem with my writing length though so I'll try to do better here.

quote:
Originally posted by Double D:
We could debate about how ending the war is a great way to honor the troops, but is that really what should happen at the parade? Probably not. I mean, what if I went to a funeral for someone who died of cancer with a sign and a petition to increase cancer reaearch funds. Some would agree and some would be mad as hell because it's the wrong time and place to discuss it. It's a funeral, for God's sake, not budget meeting. So, yes, cancer is bad, war is bad, anti-gay violence is bad. Absolutely. But there are appropriate times and places to make a stink.

Cliffs Notes Version: Memorial Day is about sacrifice. Hiding any hint of a soldier's sexual life for the sake of a bogeyman is a big sacrifice people make today. It can lead to other consequences like murder in the ranks. But the big shame is that it's an unnecessary sacrifice. Whatever perverted moral order or code of ethics that the military uses now could function just as well with acceptance of non-straight soldiers (e.g. Great Britain).

It's notable that some soldiers sacrificed their lives for this country, but certainly it'd be better if there were a way to moot the sacrifice and have that person alive. I know several wives and mothers who would be much happier to have their loved one back even if it meant no more parades in their honor. If you did away with the "gay" sacrifice soldiers in uniform make, you'd improve the troops and added bonus you could shut up the complainers like me :-) Doing away with this unneeded sacrifice would kill two birds with one stone. But Memorial Day being about recognizing military sacrifices makes it a better day to recognize the problem than even Independence Day or Gay Pride Day. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade.


quote:
Originally posted by Double D:
I have heard it said that the response you get is the message you send. If people are getting upset at what you bring to Memorial Day, maybe you aren't sending the message you think you are, or then again, maybe you are. Maybe you mean to rile them up and feel confrontational yourself, and they are responding to your "subtext" more than your content.

The funeral protesters of Southern Baptist Minister Fred Phelps and his ilk are horrible. But, believe it or not, they get donations and support from doing it. They are an organization that lives off of hate and recognition. I find that horrible and disgusting. My goal here is to share my point of view when asked to back up my thoughts of Memorial Day being anti-gay.

In no way do I want to take away from celebrating others who have made sacrifices (in most cases significantly greater sacrifices) on Memorial Day. But sacrifice is not a zero sum game. More war dead doesn't mean there's less "sacrifice" to dole out for celebration.

quote:
Originally posted by Double D:
I dunno. It's late and I'm just making this up.

I do appreciate your thoughts, Double D. Thanks.
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macnoid
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Icon 12 posted May 27, 2007 12:03      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Dragonman, Spungo: I'm with you two on this one. I'm in a horribly good mood and dont care to muck it up tonight. Plus I have a 4 hour mounted patrol to blindly lead tonight.

If I throw a Straight Pride parade, do you think anyone would care?

So I'll see you at Mardi Gras? or Spring Break? Or are you one of the ones who wants to put the f*cking back into Easter? I'll support that, but my post wasn't about recognizing gay people or gay pride parades.

quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Note: If you can't say what you have to say in a few sentences I'm not going to read your paragraphs of post, 'less I know you of course.

Sorry, in the future I'll try not to over-estimate the intelligence of the readers on the Geek Culture forums. [Razz] Just kidding. Joke Joke.

Seriously, I am trying to improve my writing. I write code day in and out, so it's kind of a novelty writing for humans who don't need every concept defined back to its foundation. I didn't start posting on the Geek Culture boards to improve my writing, but I do find that I am learning a lot.

Thanks for putting up with it.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 16:16      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Listen Macnoid. The answer to your question is

No.

Long answer -

There is no long answer. It's a stupid question.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 16:58      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by macnoid:


Thanks for putting up with it.

No extra charge, it's included in my bill. [Big Grin]

Howdy. Maybe do an introduction of yourself in an "All About You Thread", eh?

As for this thread - Calli's right.

(Yikes. I've agreed with Calli twice in one week. What're these forums coming to...?)

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
macnoid
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 17:10      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Listen Macnoid. The answer to your question is No. Long answer - There is no long answer. It's a stupid question.

Thanks for your input Callipygous, but being from Brighton you don't appear qualified to comment. You don't have a military with an anti-gay policy (Britain's allows gay soldiers to serve openly as I recall). You don't celebrate a Memorial Day with the whole concept of "celebrate sacrifice except..." that makes American Memorial Day two faced.

I think your answer is great by suggesting that this whole question becomes a non-issue in a society that doesn't discriminate against gay soldiers.

Thanks for your input. [Smile]

Posts: 10 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Just_Jess_B

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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 17:22      Profile for Just_Jess_B   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by macnoid:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Note: If you can't say what you have to say in a few sentences I'm not going to read your paragraphs of post, 'less I know you of course.

Sorry, in the future I'll try not to over-estimate the intelligence of the readers on the Geek Culture forums. [Razz] Just kidding. Joke Joke.

No, it wasn't a joke-joke. It wasn't 'just kidding'. You meant to say that, and you meant to insult Jace Raven. That was a snipe at someone who busts his ass every day across the world so you can sit around in the United States of America freely able to bitch about whether Memorial Day is Anti-Gay or not! He serves America; you serve you.

Line? Crossed. Jace Raven is a hero while you hide behind your B.S. arguments and your self-aggrandizing crap. Don't come here, hop on, and immediately kick on your flamethrower if you're not ready to get blowback.

You don't want to do anything but troll with your honeyed arsenic and heartfelt homespun tales which would probably fail the snopes test. Well, I'm not taking the P.C. Kool-Aid from your hands out of some perceived guilt I should own. I don't give a rat's rear end if you are gay, straight, bi, transgendered, transvested, or even a freaking 1977 Pontiac Trans Am!

Memorial Day is about the people who died for liberties we take for granted today. If anything? Memorial Day is pro-gay, because soldiers died to protect your Constitutional right to complain about anti-gay sentiment.

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Opinion is not Truth; that is why each has its own definition. Illiteracy sucks.

Posts: 1370 | From: Whaddya mean, Arizona? | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
macnoid
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 17:22      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Howdy. Maybe do an introduction of yourself in an "All About You Thread", eh?

As for this thread - Calli's right.

(Yikes. I've agreed with Calli twice in one week. What're these forums coming to...?)

I was thinking about doing an introduction. I've been having second thoughts though. I make Mac software for a living and I'm starting to think the more you know of me and my opinions the more likely such thoughts might endanger people purchasing my stuff. I'm really not trying to be an as*hole, but I think I way over-argued my point originally and have now made an irredeemable first impression. I'm really not long-winded or activist in person. But I think I'm going to have to keep my as*holic perceived persona separate from going public with my geek side.

I appreciate that you don't perceive Memorial Day as being anti-gay. Can you at least see how someone might see it that way? It may not be popular or well publicized or fit with your perception but can you see how some people might see Memorial Day being celebrated in a two-faced anti-gay manner? If it is an insane perspective, I'll shut up. There's no way logic can even enter that picture. Actually, I may just shut up anyway.

Thanks for saying Howdy though.

Posts: 10 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 17:47      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
In reading this thread, I couldn't help thinking of Daffyd, the only gay in the village.

Don't beat yourself up about it though Macnoid. We all talk nonsense occasionally here, and some of us all the time. Welcome to the boards. [Smile]

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
macnoid
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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 17:58      Profile for macnoid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yep, that's all I'm going to say. After all if a mind-reader like Just_Jess_B can say what I'm really thinking then there's no need for further comment.

Just some final thoughts:

* I didn't "attack" anyone. Even the joke about low intelligence was after a perfect setup by the three writers opinions that they can't be bothered with actually reading anything I wrote. That's fine. I figured out that I tried to over-expound. Sorry. It struck me as funny because it's the same argument my six year old nephew when he wants to go outside and play rather work with his teachers. I do find it funny why would you go to the trouble to comment on a thread if you don't read it? That actually adds to the attention to a thread you don't think should have attention. [Smile]

* Everything I've written is true. I don't write fiction, my memory isn't good enough to keep things straight if something varies or diverts. While my opinions may change or I may have forgotten some detail (hardly with that verbosity) [Smile] , everything is truth as I know it. Sorry that you don't like some of the stories that I've found in my life to be profound. They just strike me as stories I like to share with others. If they strike you as coming from Snopes, or Reader's Digest, feel free to look.

* I never said I soldiers were not heroes or implied anything of the sort. I won't get in a pee argument with someone about my value as a person versus someone else's. We all contribute in our own way. That's basic "How do we contribute" to our country of social studies.

* Memorial Day is about celebrating those who made sacrifices for the enforcement of Americans sovereignty. There are things we don't celebrate (like traitors). We explicitly don't celebrate Confederate soldiers even though their sacrificed lives made the country we have today (if they hadn't died we'd have had a very different country). Memorial Day celebrates sacrifice, but it shouldn't enshrine it when it is still quite possible to change it. It's possible to change the hostility to gay soldiers in uniform.


Thanks guys and gals. I hope everyone here in the US has a great Memorial Day. Whether you celebrate it by cleaning a tombstone, raising a glass in remembrance, saying a prayer of thanks, or watching the Indy 500, I hope you find whatever closure and meaning you're looking for.

--macnoid

Posts: 10 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
WinterSolstice

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Icon 1 posted May 27, 2007 18:08      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by macnoid:
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
Dragonman, Spungo: I'm with you two on this one. I'm in a horribly good mood and dont care to muck it up tonight. Plus I have a 4 hour mounted patrol to blindly lead tonight.

If I throw a Straight Pride parade, do you think anyone would care?

So I'll see you at Mardi Gras? or Spring Break? Or are you one of the ones who wants to put the f*cking back into Easter? I'll support that, but my post wasn't about recognizing gay people or gay pride parades.

No, this kind of patrol, dumbass:
 -

As you would know if you came here to join a community instead of shoot off your mouth. You'd be quite aware (having possibly clicked on his profile before being so flip) that's he's USMC, currently deployed.

Maybe this is why people are anti-gay? They associate people like you with gays?

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An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.

Posts: 1192 | From: Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged


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