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Author Topic: Another tragic shooting
Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted April 19, 2007 14:42      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grummash:
So why do you think it makes sense to let any fool with a clean credit history and a few spare dollars have access to firearms.

It may be legal, but it is not sensible.

Few states require that little, if any. The shooter in this case had to pass a background check to buy his handguns, but, because he was discharged from his overnight stay at a mental health facility without being diagnosed as having any mental illness, it came back clean. He also had to go through a waiting period, and could not buy more than one gun in a 30-day period.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

Posts: 1590 | From: Fresno, CA | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted April 19, 2007 15:34      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
They also believed that they had the right to own slaves, and that women shouldn't vote, and....

You seem to imply there is something wrong about these things???

quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
I don't think anything but self-preservation ever gives you the "right" to kill people.

WS, this is news to us Montanans (referring to nerdwithnofriends and myself). Around here we have "Tourist Season" , usually for about 2 months in the summer. No daily bag limits, size or gender requirements. Just "shoot 'em as you see 'em". [Big Grin]

quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
So yeah I am a Libertarian, nutjub, asshole, fuckwad, shithead. But fuck gun laws and fuck government nannies. If I wanted someone to babysit my fucking ass, I'll move back into my mom's place. I will take the chance that something bad will happen to good people,(Don't worry I am not counting myself as a good person) over the possibility of having our lives controlled by some arbitrary power.

I have said my piece.

Indeed!

So Shroomy, when ARE you going to stop mincing words and learn to speak your mind around here, eh? [Confused] [Razz]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Posts: 3752 | From: Pluto, no matter what you call it, is still my home. | Registered: Dec 2004  |  IP: Logged
boo
Highlie
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Icon 1 posted April 19, 2007 20:08      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
The trouble is this: consent. No one can force medical care of any kind down your throat. If you are an adult or emancipated minor and are competent to refuse care, you have every right to do so (and the guidelines for competency are pretty damn lenient - if you're alert and oriented and seem sober, you can refuse care; the medics might not like it, and they'll tell you how much they don't like it, but you can refuse care). In the case you've outlined boo, where someone is on the floor, unconscious and bleeding, implied consent kicks in. You can just assume that if the person were awake and aware of the situation, they'd want all the help there was to offer.

Yes, I understand all that. But I think the extrapolation can be made that if a person were mentally healthy, then they weren't, they would want help to become mentally healthy, again. Just like the physically healthy person who is fine, and then the aren't, so they want help to be physically healthy again.

Or what about the person who was never physically healthy, but great pains have been made to bring them to better health. If a person has always been "crazy," that doesn't mean they should be left crazy.

But as you said, our society doesn't make such things easy. And I'm not suggesting we be hasty in throwing caution and all our rights and freedoms to the wind. But in view of these last several years, we should re-evaluate certain things we are doing as a society. Certain sacrifices are considered givens. I've forgotten the details, but years ago I read a book regarding calculated risks. How many deaths were deemed "acceptable," because a car didn't have this or that piece of safety equipment because it saved the manufacturer $5.00 to exclude it. If we are going to consider these things as acceptable calculated risks, (which it appears we have been doing) then we just have to accept them as part of life. I don't think we could ever abolish all such behavior, anyway, but it would be rather nice to make an effort.

Posts: 775 | From: us of a | Registered: Oct 2006  |  IP: Logged
Just_Jess_B

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Icon 1 posted April 19, 2007 20:46      Profile for Just_Jess_B   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by CommanderShroom:
So yeah I am a Libertarian, nutjub, asshole, fuckwad, shithead. But fuck gun laws and fuck government nannies. If I wanted someone to babysit my fucking ass, I'll move back into my mom's place. I will take the chance that something bad will happen to good people,(Don't worry I am not counting myself as a good person) over the possibility of having our lives controlled by some arbitrary power.

I am in total agreement with this. The whole point of that revolution there in the late 18th century and rematch in the early 19th was to maintain our liberties. Yes, part of the cost is having people do what this murderer did, but in a hyper-controlled nation, insane people still find a way to perform horrific acts.

The man didn't want help. There was no help for him. That he decided to murder innocents is awful. But, I ask, why is it more awful than the murder of these innocents' deaths?

I'm sorry, but with the death all over the world, we are virtually unscathed. However, to focus on the United States: Do we mourn the hundred or so people who die in car crashes each day in the U.S.? Do we mourn the eighteen people who die in the U.S. because people don't put themselves on organ donation registries?

We have many pointless deaths in the United States, yet we're not forced to bicycle to work or give up our blood or bone marrow or organs to the needy. Let's save lives instead of keep the innocents from being able to defend themselves under constitutional right, first.

Then we can start discussing revoking Constitutional rights.

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Opinion is not Truth; that is why each has its own definition. Illiteracy sucks.

Posts: 1370 | From: Whaddya mean, Arizona? | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted April 19, 2007 23:00      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are "strict privacy laws" (on medical records) and trust of an applicant's statements a problem?
quote:
Article: "Did He Buy the Guns Legally?"   (Newsweek - April 19, 2007)

“I don’t think it could be any more clear cut. He was not eligible to buy those guns,” says Rand.

When Cho bought the guns, he had to answer the following question on Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms Form 4473: “Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or … committed to a mental institution?” Cho answered “no.”

A Virginia magistrate issued a temporary detention order for Ho in December 2005. In so doing, the magistrate found that Cho presented “an imminent danger to self or others as a result of mental illness, or is so seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment.”

In 1998, a man named Russell Weston killed two police officers in a shootout at the U.S. Capitol, using a .38-caliber gun that he had acquired with a gun permit he got from his home state of Illinois. When he filled out his federal form, he answered, like Cho, that he had no record of mental illness. Illinois officials were unaware that Weston had been ordered to a mental institution for a 90-day evaluation in Montana two years earlier. Why didn't they know? Montana's strict privacy laws prevent the reporting of commitments to law enforcement.

 

quote:
Shame on NBC, CNN and all for doing just what the killer wanted, and probably adding fuel to a copycat incident.
Definitely.
 
quote:
... gun rights ...
#include <sarcasm.h>

Before making guns illegal, maybe the US should make heroin or cocaine illegal. If those drugs were illegal, almost no one would get hurt by them.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted April 20, 2007 06:55      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
You'd have to be crazy to not want to see a therapist. Therein lies the problem. [Wink]

I disagree - you'd have to be crazy to want to see a therapist.

No thanks, I don't want any drugs to encourage me to subscribe to the group-think.

WS, I think you've missed Scholastic's point - people suffering from mental illness believe themselves sane, (most of them, anyway), while those who are sane are usually the ones who question their own sanity.

For those interested, I have heard that professionals considers "A Beautiful Mind" to do a very good job at explaining schyzophrenia. And it's very similar for other illnesses - people find their behaviour very normal and coherent, and can find a justification for them in their altered minds.

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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WinterSolstice

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Icon 1 posted April 20, 2007 07:33      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
WS, I think you've missed Scholastic's point - people suffering from mental illness believe themselves sane, (most of them, anyway), while those who are sane are usually the ones who question their own sanity.

No - I got his point, I just couldn't disagree more [Smile]

I understand the whole "only crazy people think they're sane" bit, but the psych profession in the US is simply evil and incompetent. I've seen counsellors and psychologists/psychiatrists on and off my entire life and I've never met a sicker more deranged group of people.

A simple look at ADD/ADHD will prove that. How about Ausperger's? These are real mental illnesses with symptoms nearly identical to normal healthy brains. However every psych I've seen (or that my kids have seen) instantly leap to these conclusions. They prescribe extremely dangerous meds like MAO inhibitors and anti-psychotics with little or no regard for the severe impact.

Jess has severe short term memory issues due to foolishly prescribed "anti-depressent" that was so dangerous that it later became the subject of a class-action lawsuit. At the time however, it was treated like candy.

Psychiatry is as dangerous as brain surgery and performed by people who are generally incompetent. Psychology ranges from the touchy-feely to the downright scary.

These are not the answers any more than the lobotomy was the miracle cure all 100 years ago. The truly dangerous people in society are the ones that are completely sane until a crucial event pushes them to far. The merely disturbed present nearly all of our artists, scientists, scholars, and cultural driving forces.

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An operating system should be like a light switch... simple, effective, easy to use, and designed for everyone.

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Just_Jess_B

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Icon 9 posted April 20, 2007 07:48      Profile for Just_Jess_B   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To defend WS's point, those who are tormented know they're tormented. They don't think they're insane or sane. Sanity is not what's at issue for them. Most people I've known in therapy and on medication are depressed out of boredom and uselessness. They go week after week, rehashing the same pain again and again without moving forward because they wish a "quick fix".

As for wanting to see a therapist, no sane person would and no seriously crazy person would, either. The pseudoscience of therapy is akin to voodoo fascism: the minute you decide you're not going to play by their trial-and-error rules, you are in danger of being forced into an institution. You get to be a guinea pig to the therapist's school of thought. Sane people wouldn't want to do that because they wouldn't want to give up their liberty; insane people fear the intense control others would have over them.

It's the people in-between trying to be "normal" who end up in therapists' offices. People who, strangely enough, are more normal than the cotton-candy and happy bunnies crowd (the people who drop the IQ down to a median of 100).

While the concept of therapy is excellent, there are far too many insane therapists with too much power. The ones who change a patient's life are few and far between, therefore both arguments are correct, in that neither sane nor insane people want to see therapists.

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Opinion is not Truth; that is why each has its own definition. Illiteracy sucks.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted April 20, 2007 08:10      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Point taken, WS.

Jess, I must say I agree with you - to a point. Psychatry is still in infancy stages, as regular medecine was a century or two ago. There are still mistakes to be done, but unfortunately, it's the way we learn. Until the brain is fully understood, there will be people abusively treated for ailments they don't have, there will be dangerous medication given without an aftertought, and there will be people who will go undiagnosed.

Don't you wish sometimes to have been born in the future, when science will be much more advanced? I know I do. [Frown] (And then I think that maybe the world will be back to dark ages in that future, out of today's people stupid choices and actions... [Frown] [Frown] )

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Eppur, si muove!

Galileo Galilei

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted April 20, 2007 08:58      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am perfectly fine living in this fucked up era. Rather than any other fucked up era.

And while A Beautiful Mind was a good watch. Unless you have been in the direct physical range of a true schizophrenic, you cannot understand it.

I have seen a good therapist before. And I have seen bad ones. And now, I will be damned if I ever am placed within 50' of one ever again. Unless they have me strapped in.

Beer and pot are much more useful than lithium and paxil ever were.

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Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Mel
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Icon 1 posted April 25, 2007 21:03      Profile for Mel     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There's still too much blame around shootings. Gun availability, healthcare, personal history, etc. don't make any difference now. They will still happen in the future because these things are somewhat unavoidable. Nobody knew this guy was going to shoot people, so how do we know he needed help until after it happened?

What these people seem to want to feel is a sense of power, which would also explain why they shoot themseves after. They want to be in power of everyone around them and also their own lives. I'm no psychologist, but I read that these things tend to happen when something in the murderers' lives happens when fortune, luck, or something goes differently than how they planned, like getting a bad grade, getting dumped, getting bullied - things that make them feel out of control. We can't protect every person from feeling down and out, because it happens to everybody. We just all deal with those emotions on different levels.

It had been studied that men deal with their emotions with anger rather than tears, because showing sensitive emotion is not an acceptable trait in men. Guys tend to turn their saddness, frustration, hurt, etc. into rage, which can make it hard to deal with in the future. I had a student (now suspended till further notice) who is a perfect example of this. He has a lot of hurt from his past, as many things happened out of his control, and to deal with it he would scream profanity or damage things, and even talked to me about thinking about hurting people. Fortunately, this student was very open and honest with his thoughts, whereas many are not and leads to greater violence. Unless everyone is open about their thoughts, how is anyone to know to avoid these kinds of situations?

I guess all we can really do to prevent shootings or murders of any kind is to just be a good friend, listen to others, be good role models, and allow ourselves to cry in front of others. From my experience, those things really do work! So those are my 2 cents.

Another thing I'd like to say (third cent?) is that the Canadian professor who was a Holocaust survivor at the school who got shot deserves sincere recognition for his bravery, as he got shot protecting his students, apparently using his body as a shield. That kind of qick thinking and selfless heroism should be more of a topic than the shootings. I also agree that the Amish dealt with their publicity very well, as they didn't make the shooter some kind of hero. I think that the copycat killers turn that false heroism into false power that they feel they need. So yay to real heros!

Are my thoughts or information off in any way?

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 26, 2007 02:34      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Like most outsiders, I still find Americans' strong attachment to guns completely baffling. The arguments you use to justify gun ownership are frankly illogical. Some seem to regard the US constitution as revealed religious truth, like the 10 Commandments. The idea that the right to bear arms might be a protection for democracy makes no sense at all. Murder rates in the US compared to other countries would also seem to indicate that this right comes at a fairly high price.

The only remotely plausible explanations that I can even begin to understand is first that you believe that you are in a vicious circle with so many guns in circulation that having some of them in the hands of the good guys is the only way of evening up the odds a bit. Rather a counsel of despair, but I understand why you might believe that. The second is an emotional thing, that you simply just like guns. Certainly gun ownership appeals to that US frontiersman thing, and seems for some to be a part of what it means to be American, and the higher murder rates and occasional tragedies like this one are just the price you pay.

But it is still baffling to us outsiders. I certainly don't feel in any way deprived by lacking this right, or that my country or its democracy are less secure from its absence.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted April 26, 2007 03:05      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Callipygous _________________________ The biggest thing about the Second Admendment is that it was written during a time of great distrust of Governments and the abuses that Governments can do. So if the public is armed it is harder for a Government to commit non lawful acts.

I quess what I am saying is that we don't trust our elected officials to do our bidding unless we hold their feet to the fire.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 26, 2007 04:48      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But Moman consider this, the times when totalitarian regimes have displaced democracies, it's because they have managed to appear to a substantial portion of the population as saviours of a sort, either releasing the working class from slavery to their masters if left wing, or bringing order out of chaos if right wing. So having an armed population would be unlikely to stop such a thing, though it might make a bloody civil war more likely. Indeed since the US has a quite pathological fear of anything left wing, if there was (or is) any threat to your democracy it could only come from the extreme right, and would most likely be cheered on by those most attached to the second amendment.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged


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