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Author Topic: Science vs Faith
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 19, 2007 14:44      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would post this under a different area, but the way things have been going around here of late... [Roll Eyes]

Faith vs Science

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stevenback7
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Icon 1 posted February 19, 2007 16:27      Profile for stevenback7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
yeah i have to agree with the comic on this one.

But i think faith has been losing a long battle. Just because they can't adapt to the enviroment means there offspring are less likely to survive in the wild meaning the more dominate adaptable science is able to slowly take ofer the teritory once dominated by faith. And even though faith tried to adapt to Darwin it failed and science is therefore taking over the world.

*day dreaming about science

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 19, 2007 16:37      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, will I see you on the Richard Dawkins forum, then?

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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Richard Wolf VI
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Icon 10 posted February 19, 2007 17:24      Profile for Richard Wolf VI   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So true! Though being myself a "protestant" I don't share many of their thoughts and dogmas, that take the bible so literally. I feel the belief in God should coexist with science, but religion is an illness for humanity that should be eliminated.

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boo
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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 17:54      Profile for boo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Roll Eyes] Oy.
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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 14, 2007 21:36      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I ran across that recently. Creative, but I think it only applies to people who actually believe that faith and science necessarily must confict.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 06:51      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
After Rome fell and the Church gained power the Church blamed Romes technology for a lot of things. Since a lot of people outside of Rome did not understand a lot of this technology it was banned. The Church banned a lot of research and stunted science. They burned books and a lot was lost due to all of this. The church set the world back hundreds of years and they put the world into decline.

They are still trying to stunt science in a lot of ways. Look at how Church morals are trying to stop stem cell research. Some churches go so far to say that dinosaur bones are the product of scientist trying to destroy the church and they never really exsited.

I really think religion should stay in the church and out of the lab. If they can do that we will keep sceince out of the church.

It sounds like a good deal to me. We don't all believe in their views. I for one would like to be more aware of my surroundings and be able to study them without someone telling me that it's wrong because they say it's wrong.

 -

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WinterSolstice

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 06:54      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
AWESOME!!!

I want those stickers [Big Grin] Gonna visit some hotel rooms!

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 07:54      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
After Rome fell and the Church gained power the Church blamed Romes technology for a lot of things. Since a lot of people outside of Rome did not understand a lot of this technology it was banned. The Church banned a lot of research and stunted science. They burned books and a lot was lost due to all of this. The church set the world back hundreds of years and they put the world into decline.

That doesn't fit with anything I know about the subject. By the time Rome fell, it was essentially a "Christian" empire, and many connected the well-being of Rome to the spread of Christianity, so many feared what Rome's decline meant for Christianity in general. See St. Augustine's City of God for information on what Christians were thinking as the eventual fall approached. I've never read anything to suggest that excess technological advancement was ever considered a factor in Rome's fall.

People come up with some of the most unhistorical bull**** regarding Western Civilization just because it fits their preconceptions about Christianity.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 09:33      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
After Rome fell and the Church gained power the Church blamed Romes technology for a lot of things. Since a lot of people outside of Rome did not understand a lot of this technology it was banned. The Church banned a lot of research and stunted science. They burned books and a lot was lost due to all of this. The church set the world back hundreds of years and they put the world into decline.

That doesn't fit with anything I know about the subject. By the time Rome fell, it was essentially a "Christian" empire, and many connected the well-being of Rome to the spread of Christianity, so many feared what Rome's decline meant for Christianity in general. See St. Augustine's City of God for information on what Christians were thinking as the eventual fall approached. I've never read anything to suggest that excess technological advancement was ever considered a factor in Rome's fall.

People come up with some of the most unhistorical bull**** regarding Western Civilization just because it fits their preconceptions about Christianity.

Sorry, got it off the History channel. Last week was barbarian week after all. And it's always been the christians that try to hide the past. They burned and banned the publishing of more book then the Nazi's. But then again the Nazi's where a Christian orginization. And if you wanted to see unhistorical take a look at the bible.

Cheers,
MacD

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 13:07      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mac D, you're being an asshat. Foregoing for the moment that you cite no sources to support your views, the zeal you display when attacking people whose faith is different than yours (ironically, one of the things you use to damn the church) pretty much invalidates anything you say.

Why is it okay for you guys to paint all religions, and the practitioners thereof, with one brush, while anytime somebody mentions an asshole atheist, they are loudly responded to with "But they're not ALL like that!!!11!!one!"?

You kill your own cause. Nobody will believe you just because you're trying to "fit in". Just because you're on a geek forum doesn't make you intelligent, and being intelligent doesn't mean you have to deny religion and flame people who sincerely hold a personal faith.


Just like those few fundamentalist nutjobs who you mistakenly confuse with the majority of christians, you make me believe that no atheists have any true conviction- they just enjoy pissing people off and creating controversy. You also mistakenly confuse "the Church" with "churches" throughout your ramblings- though I wouldn't expect a more sophisticated distinction from an atheist troll like you.


You state that the church held back science by several centuries. I'm sure you're referring to that whole episode with Galileo, which is one of the favourite pieces of ammo people like to use against Christianity. The whole incident is widely misunderstood, due to bias against the Church in American media. The actual story involves mutual misunderstanding between the Church and Galileo, but I wouldn't want to ruin your rant with a fact or two.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 13:12      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
After Rome fell and the Church gained power the Church blamed Romes technology for a lot of things. Since a lot of people outside of Rome did not understand a lot of this technology it was banned. The Church banned a lot of research and stunted science. They burned books and a lot was lost due to all of this. The church set the world back hundreds of years and they put the world into decline.

That doesn't fit with anything I know about the subject. By the time Rome fell, it was essentially a "Christian" empire, and many connected the well-being of Rome to the spread of Christianity, so many feared what Rome's decline meant for Christianity in general. See St. Augustine's City of God for information on what Christians were thinking as the eventual fall approached. I've never read anything to suggest that excess technological advancement was ever considered a factor in Rome's fall.

People come up with some of the most unhistorical bull**** regarding Western Civilization just because it fits their preconceptions about Christianity.

Sorry, got it off the History channel. Last week was barbarian week after all. And it's always been the christians that try to hide the past. They burned and banned the publishing of more book then the Nazi's. But then again the Nazi's where a Christian orginization. And if you wanted to see unhistorical take a look at the bible.

Cheers,
MacD

As much as I like the History Channel (I just don't get to see too many of their programs, since I don't have cable), it's not unusual for their programs to be on speculative theories. Especially when dealing with ancient history, there are a lot of conflicting theories. Just because the History Channel said it in a program doesn't make it a widely supported theory, only something that would get them viewers. This can often bias them towards airing programs about questionable fringe theories.

"It's always been the christians that try to hide the past" is a foolish statement to make. All you have to do is look at modern-day China to prove that false.

Who burned more books is an interesting claim to make. It's a bit difficult to prove one way or another, especially during the dark ages. Since most of the information that was preserved during that period survived due to monks, it would be difficult to say what was supressed and what they just failed to maintain, except in cases where we actually know what books were intentionally destroyed.

As far as Nazism goes, it was a nationalist movement, which incorporated elements of Christianity because that was the dominant religion of the nation at the time. Links between the two were complicated, and the goal was to form a new state religion by purging many Christian beliefs and adding new elements as necessary. Calling Nazism a "Christian movement" ignores the core of the organization.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Reedius
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 13:28      Profile for Reedius     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have thought about it and the idea of faith isn't a bad one, the problem in this entire situation is that in our nature as humans we tend to do wrong things and because it's more easy to do wrong things in the religious field that's were more wrong things happen than in the science field.

So the one we need to blame is the guy/thing that created the part of our being that makes us do the wrong things we keep doing.

And because of that i don't believe and approve the idea of idealizing someone/something that created us because in my opinion he is as smart as a common ignorant because even a normal geek as I would know how to create the perfect world.

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Geek or Nerd?

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 14:28      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
... and now we see the wisdom of my posting that link here instead of in the joke section like I originally started to [Roll Eyes]

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 16:17      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
... and now we see the wisdom of my posting that link here instead of in the joke section like I originally started to [Roll Eyes]

But I like to pick on christians. They are fun to laugh at.

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There's nothing wrong with me, This is how I'm supposed to be.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted March 15, 2007 18:58      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Point 1. "It Looks Like a Duck, Quacks Like a Duck ... It Must Be a Walrus"
quote:
March 15, 2007 09:33
But then again the Nazi's were a Christian organization (edit)

[shake head]   ... and then there's the recent article "Jesus Might Be Alive and Well in Houston" (Thread: "complete and utter insanity")
quote:
But the major difference that separates them from other Christians around the world is that the Jesus Christ they worship is alive and well -- and living in the suburbs of Houston.
First, some people will call anything a Christian -- if one man says "I am Jesus" and his friend says "I follow Jesus," the two men are not Christians because of their previously stated beliefs. However, it seems popular to use false definitions of "Christian" to slander Christians. I almost expect someone to say "Saddam killed Muslims because he was a Christian."

quote:
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
    -- Matthew 7:15

Second, a false label does not make an object become something else. A box filled with oranges and labeled "Apples" will not provide apples, no matter how many times you yell "They're APPLES!!!"
 

Point 2. Safer Than Picking on People That Will Kill You
quote:
March 15, 2007 16:17
But I like to pick on christians. They are fun to laugh at.

[shake head]   Yeah, I guess it wouldn't be any fun to pick on people that said "Death to those who insult ____," especially after you got beaten or stabbed to death.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 15, 2007 20:43      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
... and now we see the wisdom of my posting that link here instead of in the joke section like I originally started to [Roll Eyes]

But I like to pick on christians. They are fun to laugh at.
It's not your anti-Christian attitude that annoys me (I've certainly heard enough comments at various times), it's your use of dubious and false claims.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 04:31      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
... and now we see the wisdom of my posting that link here instead of in the joke section like I originally started to [Roll Eyes]

But I like to pick on christians. They are fun to laugh at.
It's not your anti-Christian attitude that annoys me (I've certainly heard enough comments at various times), it's your use of dubious and false claims.
What false claimes?

And I'm not the one going around knocking on peoples doors, leaving pamphlets on peoples cars and stopping them in the street to "spread the word". And after 9 years (k-8) in a christian school, St Johns in Chaska MN if your intrested. I know all about the false claims of the church.

All religions and the christians in particular are responsible for most of the hate and crimes against humanity. Can anyone think of a war that was not started in the name of some god? Can you say Spanish inqusition? What about the "Burning times" where an estimated 1.5 million people died "In the name of Jesus". All things that get denied by the church.

You can deny these things all you want. But they did happen. And thoes that do not study the past are bound to repeat it. And that scares me. So stop denying all the atrocities of the church. Things that still go on today.

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 04:49      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And here is a small list. with sources sited at the bottom.

I can find a lot more.

Edit: Here is another one

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 05:17      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Mac D wrote:
Can anyone think of a war that was not started in the name of some god?

The first World War comes to mind...

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Mac D
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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 05:23      Profile for Mac D     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Mac D wrote:
Can anyone think of a war that was not started in the name of some god?

The first World War comes to mind...

I can't think of a religious backing for that on either. So thats one.

I also found another church hinders science link

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WinterSolstice

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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 05:33      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can think of a lot of wars that weren't based on a deity.

Revolutionary War. Civil War, War of 1812, the 100 Year's War, the War of the Roses, etc.

I'd say that most wars are not based on religion. On the other hand, I'd say that a religion's fanatical adherents are the best way to determine the true nature of it. What do the fanatics get away with? What do they attempt?

For example - has there be a worldwide outrage in the Islamic community against the various large and small scale terrorist attacks? Have those extremists been thrown out and ostracized?
How about the IRA? How about the KKK?

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 06:11      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
MacD most if not all of your examples are anticlerical rather than anti-religious. I think that a few of them are correct, but a lot are misleading at best. What they do show very clearly is the damage done to religion when it becomes intimately involved in the exercise of political power, rather than as a concerned and critical outsider. I wonder how much religion will suffer in the US from the insane antics of the religious right. It makes me quite nostalgic for the time when Christian political involvement centred on campaigning for the rights of the poor and the oppressed, and could produce a figure as influential and universally respected as Martin Luther King.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 08:42      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
quote:
Originally posted by Sxeptomaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Mac D:
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
... and now we see the wisdom of my posting that link here instead of in the joke section like I originally started to [Roll Eyes]

But I like to pick on christians. They are fun to laugh at.
It's not your anti-Christian attitude that annoys me (I've certainly heard enough comments at various times), it's your use of dubious and false claims.
What false claimes?

And I'm not the one going around knocking on peoples doors, leaving pamphlets on peoples cars and stopping them in the street to "spread the word". And after 9 years (k-8) in a christian school, St Johns in Chaska MN if your intrested. I know all about the false claims of the church.

All religions and the christians in particular are responsible for most of the hate and crimes against humanity. Can anyone think of a war that was not started in the name of some god? Can you say Spanish inqusition? What about the "Burning times" where an estimated 1.5 million people died "In the name of Jesus". All things that get denied by the church.

You can deny these things all you want. But they did happen. And thoes that do not study the past are bound to repeat it. And that scares me. So stop denying all the atrocities of the church. Things that still go on today.

Those that study the past but don't bother to seek anything other than an easy answer aren't much better than those who don't study it at all. "It's all religion's fault" is the simplistic answer of the half-assed historian. In those cases where religion was a significant factor, examinations of the history involved often seem to echo this one from the Simpsons:
quote:
Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of the Civil War?
Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists, there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--
Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.
Apu: Slavery it is, sir.

I do not deny that numerous terrible things were done in the name of Christ over the centuries. However, I fail to see why it is necessary to attempt to pin every bad thing that ever happened on Christianity or religion in general, especially when the evidence used becomes as flimsy as your first couple of posts.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted March 16, 2007 10:00      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Via the b3ta newsletter...see the third video:
http://jamesomalley.co.uk/blog/?p=509

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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