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Author Topic: Loopy Gun Activists
ScholasticSpastic
Highlie
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 10:21      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So, I'm not sure how many of you heard about our local shooting spree last Tuesday.
SL Tribune coverage of shooting
My friend was there. She works in the Trolley Square Mall. The gunman made eye-contact with her, but didn't shoot her. I'm glad she's alive.

Gun rights activists are saying that the day was saved by a man carrying a concealed weapon. A timeline of events, however, makes it unclear that the concealed-weapons carrier had any effect on events at all. The gunman was shot by police that had arrived at the scene shortly after engaging in gun-play with the concealed-weapon carrier. Timeline of shooting spree Nobody is certain exactly whose bullet killed the man.

I'd just like to express my disgust that the gun-rights lobby is using these deaths as a (pathetic) tool to further their political agendas. Perhaps they'd have a point if they could demonstrate conclusively that the concealed-weapon carrier had any positive effect on the chain of events, but they cannot. All they're doing is trivializing human death and suffering.

Gun rights article

Utah is one of the most permissive states in the Union when it comes to concealed weapons. They should shut the hell up and let the families grieve.

The links may be slow- the Tribune website is seeing a lot of traffic right now. I checked them and they work.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

Posts: 540 | From: Vernal, UT | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged
nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 10:35      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While I agree that it's disgusting they are using such a tragic event for their political agenda, you can't honestly say that only gun-rights nuts have used incidents like these as ammo. What about all the moms who have nothing better to do and are going to use this event (and have used others) to ban firearms?

It does seem kind of inconclusive when it comes to whether or not the concealed firearm made any impact, but don't go saying that the pro-gun lobby are the only people who use incidents like this as a rallying point.

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Lady_Christy
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 11:12      Profile for Lady_Christy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm from Minnesota, and we just re-enacted the "Carry and Conceal" policy a while ago, so virtually anyone can gain a permit to carry a concealed weapon...we now have "We Do Not Allow Guns On This Premise" signs in schools, churches, hospitals, and may favorite...funeral homes...when will the madness cease?

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"There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't." :)

Posts: 207 | From: The Northwoods | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 12:07      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Lady_Christy:
I'm from Minnesota, and we just re-enacted the "Carry and Conceal" policy a while ago, so virtually anyone can gain a permit to carry a concealed weapon...we now have "We Do Not Allow Guns On This Premise" signs in schools, churches, hospitals, and may favorite...funeral homes...when will the madness cease?

Do you really think that not 'allowing' people to carry concealed weapons would stop gangstas from rollin' up and poppin' a cap in a nigga's ass? Do you even have gangstas in Minnesota?

Maybe your concealed carry laws are different from ours*, but I've heard it's kind of a pain in the ass. You have to go to classes 'n' stuff, which I can see as beneficial: it's just enough of a PITA that most people won't bother (not that many would anyways), but the ones who really /do/ want to carry get checked out and all that jazz. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a better system (I'll give it some thought later today).

*in the great state of Montana

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 12:26      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The murder rate in oz is 15 per million.
The murder rate in the USA is 42 per million.
That's 8,100 'extra' murders in the USA every year.

Strangely, merkins are are almost exactly as likely as aussies to be stabbed, strangled, poisoned, or clubbed to death with a copy of 'War and Peace'. The difference in murder rates is almost entirely in shooting deaths, 28 per million in the USA, 3 per million in oz.

But don't worry, I'm sure some more guns will solve the problem, one way or another.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Lady_Christy
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 12:37      Profile for Lady_Christy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are a few gangsters...not really where I hale from, but elsewhere in the state. I'm a little Midwestern farmer's daughter...born and raised on the farm, I think there was maybe two people of African descent in my entire town...but the Twin Cities are extremely diverse, and that'd be where you can find the gangster types.

We don't require classes of any sort, there are certain background checks and whatnot in the permit application process, but it doesn't seem like a solid system at all.

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"There are 10 kinds of people, those who understand binary and those who don't." :)

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 13:15      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
The murder rate in oz is 15 per million.
The murder rate in the USA is 42 per million.
That's 8,100 'extra' murders in the USA every year.

Would you deny that an inner-city ghetto probably has more gun crimes than an entire agricultural county?

Oz has a population density of 2.6 people per square kilometer;

the US has a density of 32 people/km^2.

Your statistic gives a ratio of 15:42 deaths per million. This is equivalent to a ratio of 0.357.

However, when we use population density:

2.6 / 32 = 0.08135; so there should be more firearm-related deaths in the US.

I nabbed these numbers off the Wikipedia

Obviously I'm no statistician and I'm not an authority on the matter, but anybody can quote statistics and omit other pertinent information. You also fail to take into account the aforementioned gangsta subculture and poverty rates within the United States (processes for allievating which are part of another debate entirely).

I'm not saying that handing out guns would eliminate violent crime, but why shouldn't responsible citizens be able to carry firearms? What real objection is there? I'm not opposed to a far more stringent licensing system, but no matter what we do, there should be a legal venue for obtaining a license to bear a concealed firearm.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 14:50      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I wonder how many shooting deaths there are per year in the middle east?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 15:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
Would you deny that an inner-city ghetto probably has more gun crimes than an entire agricultural county?

Oz has a population density of 2.6 people per square kilometer;

the US has a density of 32 people/km^2.

Your statistic gives a ratio of 15:42 deaths per million. This is equivalent to a ratio of 0.357.

However, when we use population density:

2.6 / 32 = 0.08135; so there should be more firearm-related deaths in the US.

Lets start with the population statistics. While the aussie population density is low, that's because of a large area where almost no-one lives. Despite the 'crocodile Dundee' image, we aussies are a very urbanised lot, if you look at where aussies actually live, they're in communities with population densities comparable with the USA. and the percentage of aussies who live in cities is actually higher than the USA. Sydney and Melbourne are both large enough to be in the top 10 US cities by population. We're not some low-crime agrarian utopia, our crime rates in other areas (rape and burglaries for example) are comparable with the USA.

anybody can quote statistics and omit other pertinent information

Like the fact that non-firearm murders clearly don't follow the pattern you postulate?.

you also fail to take into account the aforementioned gangsta subculture...

Statistically, most murders both here and in the USA are domestic, 'gangsta' slaying may get the news coverage, but the vast majority of victims are killed by family or romantic partners.

I'm not saying that handing out guns would eliminate violent crime, but why shouldn't responsible citizens be able to carry firearms?

Because it leads to a very large pile of dead bodies.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 16:13      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The problem with statistics is that they take things out of context. It's just as easy to interpret the statistics given so far to mean that Australians are just as violent as US citizens, but their aim sucks.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 16:48      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ScholasticSpastic____________________The story we are hearing in the upper midwest is, that an off duty officer from Ogden was the first to engage him. I am not sure of Utah's laws but here in Michigan a sworn officer must be able to produce his weapon and badge at any time. He is truely never off duty until s/he retires from law enforcement.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 17:09      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is there any reason we can't treat guns like cars? To own a gun, you get a license and a test to show you can use it with some degree of competence. You can even put levels of endorsement on the licenses, like they do with driver's licenses - a standard license to cover hunting weapons, a special endorsement for handguns/concealed weapons, and another for assault weapons? Any weapon is only as dangerous as the person who's using it. If you want an armed populace, you'd better make sure your populace knows what to do with its arms. The thing to remember about the hero-dude in Utah was he was an off-duty officer. He knew what he was doing whn he drew his weapon and engagd the gunman. He wasn't just some shmoe who bought a handgun to make his balls feel bigger or to protect himself from his own fears. He was actually trained to use it, and not get himself killed in the process.

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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 18:26      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I hate to add a "me too" post, but, I whole-heartedly agree with Xanthine here. Not really anything else to say.

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 00:57      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
TheMoMan:
The story we are hearing in the upper midwest is, that an off duty officer from Ogden was the first to engage him.

quote:
Xanthine:
The thing to remember about the hero-dude in Utah was he was an off-duty office

That's another thing that has me feeling pretty angry. I didn't bring it up because it's all over the articles I linked to, but, yeah, he wasn't just your average concealed-weapon carrier he was, indeed a SL(f*ing)PD and that makes the gun-lobby hulabaloo even more insulting. They're so wound up on continuing to push for the most lenient gun policies in the US that they'll stomp all over deaths WHEN THE DEATHS DON'T EVEN REALY SUPPORT THEIR ARGUMENT!!!

quote:
nerdwithnofriends:
Do you really think that not 'allowing' people to carry concealed weapons would stop gangstas from rollin' up and poppin' a cap in a nigga's ass?

Nope, but it certainly cuts down the cross-fire. Those, er, 'Nigga's' shoot with their guns sideways because they think it looks cool. The only real danger we face from them is when they're aiming somewhere else. Things could get a lot worse, though, if the whole neighborhood opened up- lots more opportunities for children to get mowed down by overexcited people with weapons.

Those classes are a joke here in Utah because, as I've said earlier, we're one of the most permissive states in the Union. I could go through a class in a single day and procure my concealed carry licence lickety-split. Want me to do it? It's no trouble here. I've a tax-return coming and it's cheap and easy. I'd only be doing it to prove a point, though, because I feel no need to carry a gun. I've walked through the scariest neighborhoods in Salt Lake City, at night, and spoken to dealers and addicts and transients and come out the other side with a slight buz and some new friends. Most people who are shot don't see it coming, so I wonder just how much good it would do me to have a gun in my armpit when I take a bullet in the back of my head? If I'm gonna' die, I'm gonna' die and I don't see any honor in taking some poor cracked-up bastard with me when I kick it.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 01:43      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

Because it leads to a very large pile of dead bodies.

Thankyou for not supporting your position in any way. It makes my work easier.

Even when you criticize my statistics, you prove my point: no statistic is complete. Just take that into account next time you try the deaths-per-million thing.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 01:54      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

Because it leads to a very large pile of dead bodies.

Thankyou for not supporting your position in any way. It makes my work easier.

Even when you criticize my statistics, you prove my point: no statistic is complete. Just take that into account next time you try the deaths-per-million thing.

You know, people who deny the obvious link between gun availability and gun use would be funny, if it wasn't for the very large pile of dead bodies.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 13:41      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

Because it leads to a very large pile of dead bodies.

Thankyou for not supporting your position in any way. It makes my work easier.

Even when you criticize my statistics, you prove my point: no statistic is complete. Just take that into account next time you try the deaths-per-million thing.

You know, people who deny the obvious link between gun availability and gun use would be funny, if it wasn't for the very large pile of dead bodies.
It's even funnier when people can't back their opinions, get frustrated that not everybody thinks like they do, and say stuff like that in a (futile) effort to sound witty.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 13:48      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I feel kind of left out now- not far enough left or right on this issue. I just don't like it when either side uses dead people for political gain. 'Specially in a state where it isn't necessary for them to do so.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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nerdwithnofriends
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 14:04      Profile for nerdwithnofriends     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
I feel kind of left out now- not far enough left or right on this issue. I just don't like it when either side uses dead people for political gain. 'Specially in a state where it isn't necessary for them to do so.

/me tries to make room for SS to rejoin the thread...


My thoughts are pretty much the same as Xanthines. I just wanted to illustrate that statistics alone, while sounding weighty and impressive, are often worthless. It just bugged me that TFD thought 'piles of dead bodies' was a valid argument, without supporting it. An appeal to emotion, as it were.

/me hands back the thread.

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"The Buddha, the Godhead, resides quite as comfortably in the circuits of a digital computer or the gears of a cycle transmission as he does at the top of a mountain or in the petals of a flower." - Robert M. Pirsig

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 15:18      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, no! You guys are doing fine! Keep it up! I'll pitch in when I feel you've left something out.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 15:29      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by nerdwithnofriends:
It just bugged me that TFD thought 'piles of dead bodies' was a valid argument, without supporting it.

Or, I may have recognized the futility of debating with someone who responds to any facts I present by playing the all-statistics-are-bunk card.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 17:02      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Gun violence will be and should be an issue any time gun violence occurs. Guns take 30,000 lives a year in this nation -- that's 10X more lives than taken by terrorists on 9/11.

Righty will give up your rights when 3,000 die, but won't even consider reasonable regulation of firearms when 30,000 die. Go figure.

For most gun kooks, the real issue is one of being in possession of insufficient penis.

Having a gun in your home increases -- not decreases -- your chance of becoming a victim of a homicide.

In the case of a home invasion, most home owners will not be able to respond to the invasion with a firearm. The home owner must be conscious, lucid, have ready access to the firearm and ammunition, be able to load the ammunition, make it ready to fire, properly aim and fire.

Through all of this, consider the home invader knows he/she/they are invading your home and often have already calculated the liklihood of opposition.

You need to reguarly practice with a handgun to use one effectively. If you discharge a pistol and miss, the bullet may travel through walls and kill or injure an innocent bystander.

On the other hand, the phrase "Honey, hand me the shotgun" will deter 99% of criminals from continuing their efforts in your home. If you must own a firearm, a pump action shotgun is a much more effective weapon. Even unloaded, the sound of the gun's pump slide is a very effective deterrent.

If you are very stupid and keep a loaded firearm loaded, unlocked and accessable in your home, you are liable for any injury or death that may occur due to its accidental discharge.

Once again, having a gun in your home increases -- not decreases -- your chance of becoming a victim of a homicide.

As for CCW laws -- they are poorly considered. That's why, even way back in the days of the wild west, Wyatt Earp would not allow the cowboys to bring their guns into town. Today most states ban them from establishments that sell alcoholic beverages. As noted by other posters, other public places ban the carrying of firearms. This makes parking lots in states with liberal CCW laws a great place for criminals to expand their arsenals.

As an extra measure of sadness, the news of this mass shooting buried another story of a mass shooting in Philadelphia earlier that day. Three people were killed in that shooting.

Colonel Panic

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Free! Free at last!

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 17:56      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
'Kay, I've thought up some more things to say about guns and safety:

A while ago I found out that heads-up infrared displays are available for some of the higher-end cars. I thought, "Wow, that'll make them a lot safer!" Then a strong argument was made for the possibility that having an infrared display might cause people to take additional risks and thus diminish its own effectiveness as a safety device. Now, I still think heads-up IR displays are cool and if I could afford such a car I'd buy it, but I agree that there could be just as many crashes caused by the false sense of safety as were prevented.

I see concealed weapons the same way. People might think that carrying a gun makes them safer than it actually makes them. How much good does a gun do you, really, stuffed in a purse with the safety engaged under a wallet? "Hold on, bad man, I just need to pull out my gun and fiddle with it a bit and then we can get on with the mugging, okay?" A good attacker will catch you by surprise. A poor attacker could probably be avoided without using a gun.

Another issue I have with guns for self-defense is the fact that if a person is far enough from you for a gun to be an effective weapon, they're probably far enough for you to run away. The whole deal with projectile weapons is that they deliver death at a distance. If your assailant is close they're just as likely to take your gun away and use it on you. If they are far away and similarly armed, you probably only know they're armed because they've got their gun out and ready while yours is still holstered. Would it really be helpful to draw your weapon with a gun pointed at you? Can you really justify pulling your gun out and pointing it at someone who is not similarly armed?

Don't own a gun to feel safe, own one because you like guns. Please, understand that a lot of us feel that guns are a health hazard. I can't light up a cigarette in a church, so where do gun owners get off trying to pass legislation saying they can take guns into churches? (They're working on that in Utah.) CHURCHES!!! Even the knights of the middle ages understood that weapons in churches were a bad idea. I can't smoke in a classroom full of children, why must I tolerate some guy bringing a gun to a PTA meeting. PTA meetings are exactly the kind of place guns should never be allowed. I am a nonviolent man and I have left more than a few PTA meetings ready to shed blood.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 21:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
A while ago I found out that heads-up infrared displays are available for some of the higher-end cars. I thought, "Wow, that'll make them a lot safer!" Then a strong argument was made for the possibility that having an infrared display might cause people to take additional risks and thus diminish its own effectiveness as a safety device.

This particular bit of human psychology has always annoyed the fsck out of me.

When we were preparing to go on our big trip around the world, we were talking to our quack about what vaccinations we should get. There was one (Hep A? memories fade with time) that was available, but the quack recommended against it, because it had a fairly high failure rate, and he was worried that if we thought we were immune we'd stop taking sensible precautions.

I insisted that I was quite capable of understanding the difference between "reduced risk - but be careful" and "perfectly safe - go for it".

Apparently that makes me part of a minority, because no fewer than 3 health-care professionals gave us the same advice before we finally got the jab.

Is the average punter really that thick?

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 17, 2007 21:15      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know how things are in Oz, but it would seem to be the case here in the US and most other places where apes are allowed to build societies.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

Posts: 540 | From: Vernal, UT | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged


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