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Author Topic: Down comes the shoe
Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 10:11      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Methinks he simply looks for keywords and assembles his gobbledeguk from there.

The thought did occur to me, and that post would definitely support your conclusion. It's not unusual for him to post on something off-topic to the actual discussion, but this one was astronomically far off, even for him.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Reedius
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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 10:56      Profile for Reedius     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
There is never a justification for forcing someone to do the right thing. That's just fascism.

See it this way, if you don't, big nasty things happen, examples:war, polution, people get killed,etc
If someone forced others to do the right things there wouldn't be any social problems and that's very very close to a utopia.
The problem is that everybody has the idea of patriotism if people were cosmoplitan there wouldn't be any wars everything would be much more peacefull.
Stop putting people into groups and turn them against each other, we are all humans and that's the only group that should exist.

Congratulations you just read the solution to world peace. [Big Grin]

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Geek or Nerd?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 11:13      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Methinks he simply looks for keywords and assembles his gobbledeguk from there.

Thanks to the wonderful ASM filter, I was spared the horror-story of actually reading ASM's post, but let me guess...


blah blah blah ... Some GC poster (probably TFD) supports terrorists

blah blah blah ... Russia

blah blah blah ... France

blah blah blah ... China

blah blah blah ... Random("Syria", "Iran", "Iraq", "Pakistan", "Afghanistan", "Al-Quaeda")

blah blah blah ... The UN

blah blah blah ... Darfur

blah blah blah ...
quote:
Some complete misinterpretation of what a CG poster said, in quote tags to create the impression they actually said it
blah blah blah ... WWII and 'appeasement'
 
blah blah blah ... some random factoid with no discernable connection to any of the above

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 11:14      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hmmm, it' a while since I managed a double-post.
Sorry.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 11:59      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Reedius:
Congratulations you just read the solution to world peace. [Big Grin]

Unfortunately, such ideas do not suit many of those in power.

Sxepto: maybe an imperfection in the script? Bit scary how TFD more or less nailed it...

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 12:03      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Methinks he simply looks for keywords and assembles his gobbledeguk from there.

How many times have I pointed out that it's quite likely or possible that ASM is using a poor form of AI to compose his posts?

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atayarani
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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 12:19      Profile for atayarani     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:

How many times have I pointed out that it's quite likely or possible that ASM is using a poor form of AI to compose his posts?

I don't think it's Artificial Intelligence. Maybe Artificial Stupidity. It would explain his name: Artificial Stupidity Machine.

Just a theory.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 12:31      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Methinks he simply looks for keywords and assembles his gobbledeguk from there.

How many times have I pointed out that it's quite likely or possible that ASM is using a poor form of AI to compose his posts?
Many, and I have been inclined to believe you. I'm not sure how many other people do though. An alternative is it's not really an AI at all - he just has some sort of post-generator program he runs these forums through. The question is how to test these hypotheses, and I don't have the CS background to come up with anything (though this thread does provide an intriguing data point).

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7670 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 12:54      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Methinks he simply looks for keywords and assembles his gobbledeguk from there.

How many times have I pointed out that it's quite likely or possible that ASM is using a poor form of AI to compose his posts?
Many, and I have been inclined to believe you. I'm not sure how many other people do though. An alternative is it's not really an AI at all - he just has some sort of post-generator program he runs these forums through. The question is how to test these hypotheses, and I don't have the CS background to come up with anything (though this thread does provide an intriguing data point).
I also consider it a definite possibility, but it's difficult to be sure. My time working in property management has given me the "opportunity" to deal with some real nutjobs on a regular basis.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 13:02      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Just throwing this out...

Consider that you may be dealing with someone who doesn't necessarily consider the individual replies in a topic as separate posts. When the competing and varied ideas are combined, new ideas emerge that were never intended by the original posters. A reply to the perceived ideas will, therefore, be somewhat jumbled and appear to be off-topic to everyone else.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 13:36      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Right, so now we have four competing hypotheses:
1) ASM is an AI.
2) ASM is a post-generating program.
3) ASM is a human nutjob.
4) ASM is a human with a unique method of responding to threads.
So, how do we establish which hypothesis is correct?

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Reedius
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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 13:43      Profile for Reedius     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's 4, he's probably very inteligent and very geeky.

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Geek or Nerd?

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 13:53      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yer all wrong. (Not to mention gay)

ASM is probably God and everyone here is headed to the third sub-basement. (Ala 'Angel')

[Big Grin]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 13:57      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Right, so now we have four competing hypotheses:
1) ASM is an AI.
2) ASM is a post-generating program.
3) ASM is a human nutjob.
4) ASM is a human with a unique method of responding to threads.
So, how do we establish which hypothesis is correct?

We could also add:
5) ASM is a straw man persona, created as a spoof of actual war supporters. It's unlikely, as he'd be unusually committed to keeping up the false front, but some of his posts have been just bizarre enough that I wonder about it.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 14:13      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by garlicguy:
Yer all wrong. (Not to mention gay)

ASM is probably God and everyone here is headed to the third sub-basement. (Ala 'Angel')

[Big Grin]

But God's got His own account around here...

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 14:43      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Right, so now we have four competing hypotheses:
1) ASM is an AI.
2) ASM is a post-generating program.
3) ASM is a human nutjob.
4) ASM is a human with a unique method of responding to threads.
So, how do we establish which hypothesis is correct?

1 & 2 are the same thing, as anyone who has ever studied CS knows. [Wink]
Whenever the technology becomes a reality, it is no longer AI.

However...AI stuff is often done by #3, as it tends to break minds.

#4: Extremely unlikely.

P.S. His website says that he is a prof. with an interest in AI algorithms. It is not improbable that he's fed it a DB of random posts, and various sources from the Internet, run it through a simple Bayesian filter, and let it rip. Hell, some smart CS students wrote a program that made papers adequate enough to get entered into a lame conference.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 16:42      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I suppose I should explain a bit about the reasoning behind my hypothesis...

At some point in the past, I got curious about why ASM always puts up quotes without attributing them to the source, so I sent a PM and asked (I know... such a ridiculous way to gather info [Roll Eyes] ).

The explanation is that his intention is to reply to the idea, not to the person who posted the text. When you know this, some of the reasoning behind his posts becomes more obvious. He's responding to an idea represented by the text and that idea may or may not have anything to do with the post that the quoted text came from.

So... there you go. Make of it what you will.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 16:47      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, so now we have a lot of circumstantial evidence (by definition Reedius, your #5 could apply to all of the above...including #3). I'm asking for a solid, empirical test of a hypothesis. Any hypothesis. Pick one.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 17:02      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Okay, so now we have a lot of circumstantial evidence (by definition Reedius, your #5 could apply to all of the above...including #3). I'm asking for a solid, empirical test of a hypothesis. Any hypothesis. Pick one.

Well, if we are dealing with some kind of AI, then an out-of-context quote should trigger it, even if coming from a person that doesn't typically argue that point. Say, just inserting something completely unrelated to the previous comments. If it's complex enough, it may require more than one reference to set it off, though.

Conclusion: Iraq was a big mistake.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 17:02      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
He responded with a rational, self-aware answer to a PM about something completely unrelated to anything in any topic. That proves that #1 and #2 cannot be the full explanation because we have no AI or computer program that is self aware and capable of answering such a question. A human has to be involved at some point.

#3 is the same as #4 with the addition of saying ASM is insane. We have no objective way to test sanity as the very definition of sanity is subjective, so you can't design a test that will definitively determine the correct answer.

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 17:15      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Twelve years of dealing with Saddam Hussein turned the UN from an "incompetent bureaucracy" to an elite society of thieves, liars, and corruption.

So, ASM,

I recognize your contempt for Saddam Hussein.

Saddam was Sunni.

And that would make you a pro-Shi'ite terrorist sympathizer, wouldn't it?

In the Middle East you're one or the other. And you've been clear here.

Thank you for going on the record on this subject. REAL patriots will not forget this!

Say "Hello!" to Hanoi Jane, Hezbollah and the Iranian Allahtollah when you see them!

Colonel Panic

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Free! Free at last!

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 21:51      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Point 1: Maybe If You Were Close to Being Right......

[shake head]   How do people get things wrong? (rhetorical question) If I were being blunt, I'd say they were simply liars.
quote:
February 14, 2007, 14:43
His website says that he is a prof. with an interest in AI algorithms.

I checked my page ... I never said I was a professor or that I worked for a college or university. When I use terms like "Assembly Language Brain-Fry" it's facetious, not an actual medical condition.

In 1998 when I updated parts of my site, I was interested in AI technology, but if you've heard of open source then you know that one could work on a significant (time-killing) project without a college degree.

quote:
February 13, 2007, 22:06
Iraq got a LOT of weapons from the US after we decided that Iran wasn't our buddy anymore.

The numbers for 1975-1991 are:
  • Weapons to Iraq from USSR: $21,945 Million
  • Weapons to Iraq from USA:     $238 Milllion
        Note: Weapon imports to Iraq after 1991 were illegal, so "none" were listed.

The last time I mentioned this fact, the rebuttal was: "238 is the same as 21,945" (which indicates a serious disconnect from reality). To say "0.59 percent (of something) is a lot" is quite a stretch. **cough** lie **cough**
 

Point 2: I Feel Like Someone Used My Argument
quote:
February 13, 2007, 22:06
Crime prevention works the other way around: we try to keep people from doing harmful things.

Define "harmful things." Is corruption a harmful thing? Is using a humanitarian program to support a brutal regime a harmful thing? Is terrorist support by paying $25,000 per suicide bombing a harmful thing?

Saddam Hussein did a tremendous amount of "harmful things." So much that very liberal people admit "Saddam was a bad man."
  • Crime - Saddam's behavior was criminal, easily defined as wrong. (fact)
  • Prevention - The watchers (UN) were complicit in the illegal acts that they were supposed to prevent. (fact)
To my knowledge, Saddam hasn't done many "harmful things" since his death. (/sarcasm)

Of course, it would have been nice if someone curtailed his criminal behavior years earlier.
 

Point 3: What About Allowing Someone to Do the Wrong Thing?
quote:
There is never a justification for forcing someone to do the right thing. That's just fascism.
Saddam was not forced to do the "right" thing. That is clear from the scandals and reports of corruption over the Oil for Food program.

I'll imagine a reporter confronting UN officials:
quote:
Reporter: Saddam has done the wrong thing again and again by violating UN resolutions throughout the past decade. What is your defense for these UN failings?

UN: Saddam Hussein is a fascist, but at least we have not become fascists by making him do the right thing.

No one should be proud to say "Sure, I turned a blind eye while a genocidal fascist killed thousands, but at least I'm not a fascist!" (PS: that's known as rationalization)
quote:
One who condones evils is just as guilty as the one who perpetrates it.
    -- Martin Luther King, Jr.

 

Point 4: Ignore Problems?
quote:
If it is something we can put off, then it is something we can afford to ignore indefinitely while we focus our resources of building a better society here at home.
"Ignore indefinitely"? How many problems are solved by ignoring them?
Here's an idea:
quote:
Environmentalist: We must stop Global Warming. If we ignore it ... it will go away. Now, everyone ... Ignore! ...... Ignore Harder!!! .... IGNORE WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT!!!
FYI: "Building a better society here at home" doesn't have to cost a dime of government money.
  • Recycle aluminum, steel, plastic, and paper.
  • Conserve gasoline. (Don't buy a gas hog if you don't need it -- they cost more anyway.)
  • Conserve electricity. (Compact fluorescent lights are cheaper in the long run.)
  • Protect water resources. (Fertilizer is a major pollutant, using too much costs more money without any benefits.)

        I've got more, but I'll stop there. Maybe I'll add a "Green Page" to my web site.
 

Point 4: How Wrong Is "Too Wrong"?
quote:
If it is something that must be done, it should be done as soon as the dictator is observed- we can't justify waiting until it is politically expedient to topple the guy. If it is something we can put off, ... ignore indefinitely....
The problem with your statement is that it only addresses the two solutions at the extremes.
  • "as soon as the dictator is observed": Results in "immediate" war, "every" time.
  • "ignore indefinitely": Results in the France syndrome (WWII) -- by the time you do something about the problem, you've lost.

Quoting myself from January 03, 2007, 15:10
quote:
How many thousands of people should the ruler of a country be allowed to kill "for keeping peace"?
...
If you meekly accept the slaughter of hundreds of thousands by corrupt governments, why do you complain so loudly when one man with well-known "crimes against humanity" is executed?

So far, no one has provided a number, but from the way the UN has handled massacres in the past, no one cares how many people are killed.   [ohwell]
 

Point 5: The Topic
quote:
Headline: Pentagon 'twisted Iraq findings'

Paraphrased: "AHA!!! The Pentagon had make up a reason to get rid of Saddam, BECAUSE THERE WERE NO GOOD REASONS TO GET RID OF SADDAM.

The atrocities of Saddam's regime could easily fill a book. After killing a quarter of a million Iraqis, there were still 14 million Iraqis that could give some very good reasons to "get rid of Saddam."

The only reason people give for leaving him in power is "he kept the peace."

Note: Before anyone says "he should have been left in power because he had no WMD," the implication of that statement is basically:
quote:
A genocidal dictator can do what he wants (to include promoting terrorism in other countries), as long as he doesn't have WMD.
If you're keeping score,
  • Reasons to Keep Saddam:     2 (best case)
  • Reasons to Get Rid of Saddam: thousands
 

While I'm Here ....
quote:
February 14, 2007 17:15
And that would make you a pro-Shi'ite terrorist sympathizer, wouldn't it?
In the Middle East you're one or the other. And you've been clear here

Sir, you wound me. I'm an equal-opportunity-hater -- and I've got plenty to go around.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted February 14, 2007 22:09            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sir, you wound me. I'm an equal-opportunity-hater -- and I've got plenty to go around.

Hey! That should be my line! :-P

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted February 15, 2007 02:02      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That was a pretty cogent post made my ASM. I'd say (s)he passes the Turing test. We're either dealing with self-aware hardware or self-aware wet-ware and if you ask me, both are equally freaky. I can't help but feel that my comments weren't understood the way I had intended. It could be my fault or ASMs. I may not have supported them adequately.

I disagree that Saddam's record of genocidal megalomania was sufficient to justify our involvement in this conflict. There is never any justification for causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people to end the killing of tens of thousands of people. How can we be good-guys for doing what was done by a bad-guy? How do we explain ignoring genocides in other, less oil-rich nations?

I can't argue with ASM's assertions that there are cost-effective ways to build a better society without waiting for the government to pull its head out of its ass. However, many people seem to have been born with their heads up their asses and will not act unless they see their government setting an example. If global warming is a problem, and ASM seems to imply that it is, then it's probably something we should address quickly. We can't wait for a bunch of rednecks to figure out that they don't need to drive a 5-ton diesel truck everywhere they go.

Another problem that I feel is almost as urgently in need of a solution is the malnutrition and lack of health services for children in the United States. What does it say about us as a nation that we're willing to spend hundreds of billions of dollars killing for'ners, but we spend so little to improve the lives of children in our own country? Our educational system is also a joke and all our current administration has done is increase their load without significantly increasing their funding. Well, maybe we'd see a little improvement if the Bushites wouldn't fight so furiously to keep us from raising these childrens' parents' minimum wage.

What about the homeless problem? I was fortunate enough to spend a lot of time with the homeless as a teen and most of these guys don't choose to be homeless. They're mentally ill. They talk to people who aren't there and suspect that their state of affairs is the result of a massive government plot (okay, so maybe I have that in common with the homeless...). We could spend a tiny fraction of what it costs to wipe out the infrastructure of a foreign country and help all of them if we chose to.

I guess the Bushites are only pro-life when it comes to fetuses, though. Screw the kids once they come out into the world with the rest of us. Screw the homeless, too. It's much more important for us to kill those who are strange than to help those who are familiar. Why spend our energy attending to our problems when we can spend it causing problems for others? Besides, the Bushites' friends are making a fat profit. How's that corruption for you ASM? What about the Bushite refusal to stop giving no-bid contracts to their buddies? What about the disappearing gold and oil on their watch? What about tampering with government reports and classifiying more documents than any prior administration bar none? What about harassing Unites States Citizens because they have dark skin and their parents are from the Middle East? (I have seen that myself, one of my best friends is from Iran. Another close friend works for a very nice Pakistani gentleman.)

This conflict has been used from the moment of its inception as a tool for ingnoring more pressing issues and undermining the rights of United States Citizens. I'd like to believe that I live in a country in which I can enjoy free speech and unparalleled civil liberties, but I have internet access and I've seen that it's better elsewhere. We should be more than a little ashamed that we've allowed our country to be eroded as much as it has.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 16, 2007 01:15      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
That was a pretty cogent post made my ASM. I'd say (s)he passes the Turing test.

Some impostor must have hacked the GC password database.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10702 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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