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Author Topic: USA Cuts and Runs from Drug War!
Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 22, 2007 17:52      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
After cutting and running from terrorists in Afghanistan, the US armed forces is also cutting and running from the drug war:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-drugwar22jan22,0,7593287.story?coll=la-home-headlines

If there's one thing conservatives in this country are getting good at, it's losing wars!

Colonel Panic

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Free! Free at last!

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JulioC
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Icon 1 posted January 22, 2007 21:47      Profile for JulioC     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Who knows, if this keep up the French will be joking in a 100 years time about selling "American rifles, fired once then dropped during the retreat"

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612toApocalypse

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2007 11:18      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Personally, I think the War on Drugs was a mistake in the first place. I've always been for legalization. I don't partake in the consumption of booze, tabaco or anything of the sort; nor any drug that is currently or perviously illegal.

To be honest, tabaco and booze are more dangerous than pot. As to the other drugs, which are more dangerous, it should still be the right of the people to do stupid stuff to their bodies. Anything they do under the influence that happens to be a crime, is a crime.

The effects of this are many fold:

- Legalization means quality control, and oversight by the FDA

- Prisons are largerly overcrowed. Many people who were arrested as "drug offenders" are in jail... If they have done no other crimes against society, why should they be locked up? They aren't infringing on anyone's rights.

- Legalization would make it avalible on the general market, and drive the prices down, and could possibly lower the number of thefts in order to buy drugs.

- Allow it's legal creation in the US, by companies that would employ American workers. This would potentially ruin the fiscal well being of the drug cartels, which are guilty of a lot of horrible acts.

I'm not sure if it would rasie the use of these now illegal drugs or not... I'm not clear on how readily availible they are now, and thus not aware if there would be a large untapped market in the law obeying sector or if the people not using them now would continue to not use them. I know I have no interest in them.

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2007 20:43      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Legalization of pot might raise use marginally, but I believe the costs to society are far less than the cost of the criminal activity which provides the supply today.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted January 23, 2007 21:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
To be honest, tabaco and booze are more dangerous than pot.

Debatable, most of the negative health effects of smoking tobacco also apply to smoking lawn clippings, or just about any dried vegetable matter. Add to that the known mental health effects of pot smoking (ask anyone with a schizophrenic friend/relative) and you'd have to conclude pot is worse than tobacco.
As for alcohol, used in moderation it has no major health effects, and is probably the 'best' of the 3.

- Legalization would make it avalible on the general market, and drive the prices down, and could possibly lower the number of thefts in order to buy drugs.

I heard an interesting 'market based' solution to the problem a while ago. The idea is to allow registered drug addicts to be issued with free drugs at government clinics, where they'd be administered by trained health personnel in safe conditions. This would have the following effects...

1. Fewer deaths due to overdose.

3. Reduced transmission of 'dirty needle' diseases like AIDS and hepatitis.

3. Reduction in the crimes addicts commit to fund their habit (it's estimated around 80% of burglaries here in oz are by druggies)

4. Reduction in the market (and market price) for illegal drugs, putting most drug dealers out of business.

5. In the long term, a reduction in the number of addicts, as you wouldn't have the street-corner dealers encouraging young people to start.

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted January 24, 2007 08:06      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
To be honest, tabaco and booze are more dangerous than pot.

Debatable, (...)As for alcohol, used in moderation it has no major health effects, and is probably the 'best' of the 3.

nd don't forget, taken reasonably, alcohol can be a good thing. Like red wine (and some other alcoholic beverages up to a point) can lower riskds of heart disease. 1 to 3 glasses a day (depending on sex and weight) of red wine can substancially reduce risks.

(Plus there's this old truth: happiness is one of the best way to stay healthy, so if drinking a bit makes you happy, go for it! Santé!)

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Eppur, si muove!

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted January 24, 2007 12:22      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'd like to begin by coming out and admitting that I've had a varried history of experimentation with drugs and that's why I'm a nontraditional college student and not already a college graduate. Now for my opinions [Big Grin] :

Drugs are bad, m'kay? Any drug delivery system that utilizes combustion of a substance to generate an inhaled aerosol-type product will have negative effects. THC is better for you than Nicotine, but they employ equally stupid delivery mechanisms. Don't smoke things. Use a patch or take a THC pill. (I like THC pills, they are 100% good for you and they are mellower than the smoked thing).

Alcohol is a toxin, that's why it gets us drunk. Let's not let ourselves be duped into believing that it's good for us- the health effects of drinking wine and other alcohol-containing beverages are derived from other substances, not alcohol. Personally, I like a nice, dark beer. [crazy]

LSD was cool, when you could get it. Stay away- it's not LSD anymore. Rat poison is no fun, it'll really harsh your mellow and there may be cumulative health impacts that I haven't experienced yet.

Heroine killed my friend. Another lived, but she still craves it over a decade later. Bad juju!!

Methamphetamine is as evil as an inanimate object can get. I haven't lost any friends to Meth because they stopped being my friends as soon as they started using. One of my ex-friends is is prison following a shoot-out with police because he went nuts on Meth.

Finally, my best friend died of complications arrising from smoking pot. I smoked some at his wake. His was a special case, though, and most people who smoke pot will survive as long as they refrain from operating heavy machinery.

The war on drugs doesn't work. I could walk out my door and score some (drug x) right now. It's easier to buy meth in Utah than it is to buy vodka (mmmm, vodka [Big Grin] ). We should stop throwing money down that hole and begin spending money on worthwhile projects like creating a society in which people don't feel the need to turn to drugs. Free psychiatric help for everyone in the US would cost less than the war on drugs and it would do far more good.

So ends my rant.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 11:23      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
Use a patch or take a THC pill. (I like THC pills, they are 100% good for you and they are mellower than the smoked thing).

There's also the vaporizer option, cutting out carcinogens. I'm a traditionalist, though, and would be warier of a THC pill than I would be of just straight-up smoking a bowl or eating it in cookies...when you've got a loose bag of buds and shake, you can check it to make sure your (shady by definition) dealer hasn't slipped anything else into the mix.

quote:
LSD was cool, when you could get it. Stay away- it's not LSD anymore.
It is if you know where to look. I get my acid from Certified Stinky Hippies™ out in the sticks of New England, and I've been having long, blissful trips for years with no long-term side effects (except for an increased appreciation for the film "Baraka").

Treat acid like any other drug out there: don't take acid that came from someone you don't trust. Check it for additives. Start with a small dose, you can always take more. Take a handful of niacin supplements and some deep breaths if you start to have a bad trip. Be safe and be prepared to induce vomiting if you think that your drugs were somehow contaminated. Period.

quote:
Heroine killed my friend. Another lived, but she still craves it over a decade later. Bad juju!!
Heroin isn't as physically addictive as people think it is...the risky thing about it is that junkies form habits around it. When it becomes routine to come home from work and shoot a dose into your arm, it becomes a big part of your day and something you begin to anticipate, more and more.

All it takes to kick a really bad smack habit is to lock yourself in the house for a weekend with bland, starchy food, cigarettes, stool softeners, the curtains drawn, and the heat turned up for the cold sweats.

(I haven't had a craving in a very long time, and I haven't touched the stuff in almost two years. It is definitely possible to kick for keeps.)

Heroin is possibly the easiest drug to contaminate, though...how much white powder is sitting under your sink? In this case, as long as you have clean needles, shooting junk that you don't trust is actually safer than freebasing. (Obviously, know your dosage limits beforehand.) Cooking up for a shot gives you the opportunity to watch it boil away impurities and to check for anything that doesn't cook up and dissolve.

quote:
Methamphetamine is as evil as an inanimate object can get. I haven't lost any friends to Meth because they stopped being my friends as soon as they started using.
Amphetamines are a mess when they become a habit; it's too speedy for my downer-loving self, but I know some functional meth heads, and I wouldn't drop a friend simply because they felt that they needed a speed boost once in a while.

I'm surprised that coke didn't make your list; I've personally seen more lives and minds trashed by coke than all of the aforementioned drugs combined...and crack! I'm all for experimentation, but stay the fuck away from crack.

quote:
We should stop throwing money down that hole and begin spending money on worthwhile projects like creating a society in which people don't feel the need to turn to drugs.
...or we can legalize, remove the profits and "criminal" stigma that glamorizes the drug trafficking industry, educate the population, and sit back and watch the country get a whole lot more relaxed.
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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 12:42      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
I'm surprised that coke didn't make your list; I've personally seen more lives and minds trashed by coke than all of the aforementioned drugs combined...and crack! I'm all for experimentation, but stay the fuck away from crack.

People who know me are generally surprised at this, but my dad's second wife turned out to be a crack addict. He didn't divorce her until she ended up in jail during her third relapse. She was a nice person when clean, but when she relapsed all she cared about was getting her next fix. I've known a few other addicts, and they follow the same pattern (a cycle of relapses followed by rehab), but every time they relapse they get a little bit worse off, as they ruin relationships and lose their jobs yet again.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 16:07      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Alcohol is a toxin, that's why it gets us drunk. Let's not let ourselves be duped into believing that it's good for us- the health effects of drinking wine and other alcohol-containing beverages are derived from other substances, not alcohol. Personally, I like a nice, dark beer.
No. Alcohol is an intoxicant, which is why we get intoxicated. And I don't believe there has been any research as to what exactly it is in wine which is good for the heart. My money is on the alcohol. It's a great solvent - dissolves the cholesterol clean away!
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 16:31      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would like to counter Demosthenes' suggestion that there is safe LSD. By its very nature it is unsafe, the whole point of it is that you lose control, and if you are wise enough to know how to create conditions for a safe trip, you would be wise enough not to do it in the first place. Why do you think the phrase "acid casualty" was coined. I saw too many of them, and also had a fairly unpleasant experience myself, which took a good 6 months to a year to fully recover from. Anyone using LSD is playing with fire and their sanity. The cumulative effect of regular cannabis use also can have serious long term and indeed a permanent effects on some users, myself again included. There are many subtle chemical balances in the brain. We do not fully understand them, and I think it is foolish to stick a big wrench in there and twiddle with stuff in the hope that your brain will right itself afterwards, because sometimes it does not.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 17:00      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
quote:
Alcohol is a toxin, that's why it gets us drunk. Let's not let ourselves be duped into believing that it's good for us- the health effects of drinking wine and other alcohol-containing beverages are derived from other substances, not alcohol. Personally, I like a nice, dark beer.
No. Alcohol is an intoxicant, which is why we get intoxicated. And I don't believe there has been any research as to what exactly it is in wine which is good for the heart. My money is on the alcohol. It's a great solvent - dissolves the cholesterol clean away!
Actually, current research is pointing towards other molecules (flavonoids in particular) found in wine. There's a pretty stong link between excess alcohol consumption and heart disease, and the effects of excess alcohol on the liver have been pretty well-established. Furthermore, the health benefits of moderate alcohol intake seem to be most strongly linked to wines and other less-purified alcohols, which suggests that the goodies aren't coming from the ethanol. And the amount of ethanol needed in your blood to clean plaque out of a diseased artery would probably kill you.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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ScholasticSpastic
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2007 19:21      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with Callipygous that we don't yet know all of the long-term effects of regular LSD and THC use. I, for instance, found that after spending weeks at a time under the influence of mind-altering drugs the symptoms of my depression were reduced. So that was nice. So far the reduction in my depressive symptoms appears to be permanent- it's been about fifteen years and I'm still much better off.

Other people, as a function of their special life circumstances, may experience more positive or deleterious effects resulting from using these substances. Part of our problem where they are concerned arises from the fact that most research involving these substances is pretty much forbidden by our government(s). Forbidding research is always a great way to advertise how arbitrary the decission was. They would never take such a step unless they were afraid that the results of research would contradict their assertions.

LSD is safe, but most of what is sold as LSD is very much unsafe. A number of substances, alone or together, can mimic some of the effects of LSD. Many of these substances are poisons and the best-known of them is strychnine (I can't believe I spelled that right). Strychnine used to be used as a nervous system stimulant but is now most famous for the role it plays in RAT POISON!!! I like capital letters.

Now, about my omission of cocaine: My personal experience was anticlimactic. I felt no need to use it again and the high was more uncomfortable than euphoric. It cost too much, did too little, and was over too soon. So I just haven't thought about it much since then. I understand that other people have much different reactions, though, and so we should be glad my commentary wasn't presented for educational purposes. I have only one friend who has used cocaine with any regularity and she didn't end up falling all the way into addiction. She liked it a lot and she frequently feels the need to seek it out, but she was never under its sway to the extent that she couldn't choose not to use it. After talking to her I can see how she walked the line between sanity and addiction, but she was able to choose not to cross over. So I can't tell you about the evils of cocaine.

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 03:43      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Actually, current research is pointing towards other molecules (flavonoids in particular) found in wine. There's a pretty stong link between excess alcohol consumption and heart disease, and the effects of excess alcohol on the liver have been pretty well-established. Furthermore, the health benefits of moderate alcohol intake seem to be most strongly linked to wines and other less-purified alcohols, which suggests that the goodies aren't coming from the ethanol. And the amount of ethanol needed in your blood to clean plaque out of a diseased artery would probably kill you.
As will all medicines / poisons, the details are in the dose. Like warfarin - RAT POISON!!1 which is used to lower blood pressure.
My impression was that the researchers originally tested red wine, found a correlation, and moved to white wine, and so on.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 04:29      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
Treat acid like any other drug out there: don't take acid that came from someone you don't trust.

Now that's good advice, and bears highlighting. Whenever I've experimented with anything, I've known where it's come from, and have had no problems whatsoever.

Now, if we could just get drink spiking taken care of. Even with being vigilant about watching drinks, etc, my girlfriend has still been drink spiked 3 times in the last year, and I have once. Not fun, and highly dangerous.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 05:04      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
Treat acid like any other drug out there: don't take acid that came from someone you don't trust.

Sound advice.
Remember kiddies, only buy from honest, trustworthy drug dealers.

</sarcasm>

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 05:12      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
csk wrote:
Now, if we could just get drink spiking taken care of.

Well that's easy... lots of people seem to believe that legalizing and making drugs easy to obtain from reputable sources is the solution to every problem with drugs.

Surely they can't be wrong. [Roll Eyes]

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 07:18      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
Now, if we could just get drink spiking taken care of. Even with being vigilant about watching drinks, etc, my girlfriend has still been drink spiked 3 times in the last year, and I have once. Not fun, and highly dangerous.

You can do something to prevent that, too.

quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Well that's easy... lots of people seem to believe that legalizing and making drugs easy to obtain from reputable sources is the solution to every problem with drugs.

Legalizing leads to regulating, which does result in a drastic reduction in contaminated drugs. Drink spiking is almost always done with prescription drugs like Rohypnol, too; these drugs are legal, they're just poorly regulated. I fail to see how this topic is related to legalizing, or at least decriminalizing, illicit drugs.

(Frankly, I'm of the opinion that we should just legalize all of it and let the folks who don't take the time to research the physiological effects beforehand overdose. Survival of the smartest, bitches!)

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 09:02            Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Frankly, I'm of the opinion that we should just legalize all of it and let the folks who don't take the time to research the physiological effects beforehand overdose. Survival of the smartest, bitches!

You're not alone in believing this, but, we're a society. We expect people to pick up the pieces for us when we fail. Either you're advocating a society where anyone who's taken an overdose is denied medical treatment, or one where it's perfectly acceptable to waste a lot of time and money trying to take care of people who got themselves into trouble over drugs.

In Britain, this is a pointless waste of NHS time and money; many other countries with social healthcare would see it the same way. In the States, you've got to worry about the financial side of it too.

I also don't think that the person's parents and friends would be happy to see their child or friend die, and drugs, sadly, can kill. And it's not just drugs -- smoking, too. I don't think my uncle was very pleased (and very much far from it) to lose his wife to lung cancer or to witness the terrible pain it put her through before destroying her life. By the time she gave up smoking it was too late.

There are some things that are worth learning from mistakes. There are many more that bear us to stop people from making the mistakes of others in the past: the costs are simply too great to let more people go down the same route.

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 10:10      Profile for ScholasticSpastic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Smoking legislation bothers me. It is contrary to the spirit of legal substances that we constantly increase their prohibition. Current studies on the effects of second-hand smoke are methodoligically questionable or have been misquoted and show no positive causal link between second-hand smoke and increased health risk. First-hand (?) smoke is unquestionably bad for us, but cannot be limited while the substance is legal.

Our lawmakers need to stop being pansies and make tobacco illegal or leave it alone and shut the hell up. The smokey middle-ground we're finding ourselves on is far more uncomfortable for smokers than a total prohibition would be. They are caught between two realities: Cigarettes are easily obtained and thus difficult to avoid and yet smokers are villainized for continuing to use them. Further, what's the deal with these lame commercials we're making the tobacco companies pay for? Wouldn't it be more effective to actually spend the money helping people quit instead of putting half-assed guilt-trips on television, the radio and magazine pages? And, if it's legal, why are we spending so much energy trying to get people to quit smoking in the first place? Shouldn't that be their choice? If it shouldn't be their choice then shouldn't it be illegal?

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"As in repeating a well-known song, so in instincts, one action follows another by a sort of rhythm; if a person be interrupted in a song, or in repeating anything by rote, he is generally forced to go back to recover the habitual train of thought..." (Darwin, The Origin of Species)

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catgoddess
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 10:56      Profile for catgoddess     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
As will all medicines / poisons, the details are in the dose. Like warfarin - RAT POISON!!1 which is used to lower blood pressure.

Technically, warfarin is used to cease blood coagulation by vitamin k.

The detrimental physical effects of using even small dosages of warfarin for short periods of time are significant. Warfarin rips apart the digestive system and causes damage to the esophagus and stomach and colon (and all areas in between). Such damage can be repaired (although, rarely completely or for long periods of time) by taking other drugs on and off for most, if not the rest, of your life.

The effects of warfarin on your brain are more long-term and potentially permanent: dizziness, slurry speech, and memory loss and disorientation. I believe the permanency of the effects could be studied more in-depth if the patients most commonly prescribed warfarin weren't old in age and lived long enough after usage to observe the results.

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"I love humanity but I hate people." Edna St. Vincent Millay

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 12:45      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ScholasticSpastic:
Our lawmakers need to stop being pansies and make tobacco illegal or leave it alone and shut the hell up. The smokey middle-ground we're finding ourselves on is far more uncomfortable for smokers than a total prohibition would be.

You get an Internet High Five:
 -

I don't like being in the situation where it is legal for me to light up, but only in certain places, and nonsmokers on the street can feel perfectly justified in informing me that I smell bad and will die of cancer, or even worse, they cough their germy coughs right into my face. (By the way, if anyone on this board does this, I hope you end up with the hate joke of contracting lung cancer anyway. Seriously. It's rude and pointless and frankly just makes me want to punch things. [Mad] ) Don't tread on my deathwish and I won't blow smoke in your face.

Anti-smoking advertising is useless, as well...I see a commercial and almost instinctively want to go outside and smoke another butt. (It's just like anti-drug adverts: "Hey, that looks like a great idea, let's pack up a bowl!")

There's got to be a better way. [ohwell]

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 01, 2007 13:17      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Demosthenes:
There's got to be a better way. [ohwell]

Well, there was that X-files episode, where 'they' contaminated a batch of cigarettes with stuff that killed you much quicker...

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Demosthenes
SuperBlabberMouth!
Member # 530

Icon 1 posted February 02, 2007 06:34      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Well, there was that X-files episode, where 'they' contaminated a batch of cigarettes with stuff that killed you much quicker...

I never thought I'd say this, but I don't think mass murder is the solution here. [Razz] What makes my vice any worse than others'?

Maybe if we just put black goo into Parliament Lights so we can kill off all the hipsters around here...

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted February 02, 2007 07:47      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Demosthenes wrote:
What makes my vice any worse than others'?

For smoking, at least, there are about twenty million people in the US with asthma who would have trouble with you indulging in their presence. If you stuck to things that don't spread uncontrollably into the atmosphere, they wouldn't have much reason to complain.

On the other hand, you don't drive a motor powered vehicle, however, so in that respect you're helping not pollute the air they need. It probably more than balances out as long as you don't go out of your way to smoke around those with breathing problems, which I doubt you do.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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