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Author Topic: Global Warming Fact or Fiction
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2009 09:40      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Global Warming Fact or Fiction?

____ I have my own views, but thought I would bring some NASA stuff to the debate.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/nasa-to-spotlight-shrinking-arctic-sea-ice-and-unprecedented-glacier-study-at-copenhagen-78556032.html

____ My views are that we do not know if we are in a normal cycle or not, who knows if these cycles last thousands of years? Are we at or near the temp peak and will be starting down regardless of what we do. Or are we still on the upward climb and have to kill of half the worlds people before returning to the downward trend.

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Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2009 10:11      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think it's all kind of a pointless argument. Even if global warming isn't being caused by CO2, burning fossil fuels still produces plenty of other forms of pollution that harm the environment.

Seriously... are we really so attached to our lifestyles that way we'll change them due to the threat of the extinction of the human race? Can we not just accept that pollution is bad and change our lifestyles so that we produce less?

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2009 10:27      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ GASP, GASP Maybe the UniBomber was right? GASP.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 05, 2009 12:58      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The 'greenhouse' properties of CO2 are easily demonstrated in a laboratory, there's no room for doubt about the science there.

The increase in CO2 is also beyond dispute, all that Carbon in the fuel we're burning has to go somewhere.

The only claim by climate-change sceptics that has even a shred of scientific credibility is "we don't know that human activity is the _only_ thing that's causing change, there might be a natural cycle contributing".

If there is some natural cycle causing _part_ of the change in climate, then it's even more important that we stop making things worse by pouring gigatonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere,

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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zorgon
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Icon 1 posted December 07, 2009 09:30      Profile for zorgon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This "normal cycle" thing is a bunch of baloney. At this point, for there to be no impact on the climate from human activities, certain basic laws of physics would have to be wrong.

So, get to work disproving Planck's Law and the Second Law of Thermodynamics and get back to me when you've done that.

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cogito ergo something.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 07, 2009 13:46      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Lets see something killed the Dinosaurs, Some say an Ice Age. Some thing killed the Wooley Mammaths, again the theory is an Ice age. So when or what is the tipping point because the Earth has been warming for a whole bunch of years.

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Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 07, 2009 14:17      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
Some thing killed the Wooley Mammaths, again the theory is an Ice age.

The end of an ice age, more likely.

More likely still, great-to-the-nth-granddad Grunt, and a pointed stick.
A lot of big animals went extinct round about the time our ancestors got good at making spears.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 09, 2009 05:23      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Well the ethnic rigged windmill I put together as a proof of concept, went into load dumping this morning, apparently twenty five plus winds will charge my batteries I use for the radios. Once charged the load is dumped into a string of lights, I was starting to be concerned that the dump load would burn out.

____ So now a redesign and fabricate a proper blade and put that sucker higher in the air.

--------------------
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Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
littlefish
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Icon 1 posted December 09, 2009 07:58      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
The only claim by climate-change sceptics that has even a shred of scientific credibility is "we don't know that human activity is the _only_ thing that's causing change, there might be a natural cycle contributing".

If there is some natural cycle causing _part_ of the change in climate, then it's even more important that we stop making things worse by pouring gigatonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere,

You are assuming that the "natural" change is in the same direction as any effect humans are making. Maybe we should have had another ice age, and the only thing preventing billions of deaths from the cold is the extra CO2.
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 09, 2009 09:48      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Littlefish, I have to agree, here in the USA we have been keeping records Since 1859 compared to the Eons Earth has been spinning, do we have a representative sample? I don't think so. I do remember a Physics class we had about chaos or how to define the tipping point. Sand Dunes, the stock market. any way one of the points from forty years ago was that Ninety percent of an average occurs in Nine percent of the samples.

____ So what is an "average" a collection of not so average results.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 09, 2009 18:00      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Yeah, we have absolutely no way to know the climate was like before we started recording the temperature.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 09, 2009 19:51      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by littlefish:
You are assuming that the "natural" change is in the same direction as any effect humans are making. Maybe we should have had another ice age, and the only thing preventing billions of deaths from the cold is the extra CO2.

No, I'm not assuming it, they are.

One line the deniers like to run is "CO2 has only a minor effect, most of the change we're seeing is due to cosmic-rays/solar-fluctuations/natural-cycles/the-dawning-of-the-age-of-aquarius/whatever". It's all very reminiscent of the carefully-unspecified "other lifestyle factors" that the tobacco companies used to explain cancer in smokers.

While it's not possible to prove conclusively that 100% of the observed change in global temperature is due to CO2 (and side-effects thereof - eg, methane from melting permafrost), if things we can't control are contributing, then any attempt to limit warming will require even bigger cuts to the things we can control.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 11, 2009 10:21      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Well, TFD My proof of concept windmill has out produced my expectations, now to double the blade swept area go with a lot less pitch and see if I can get the thing to really produce. The goal is to use it to run some electric heaters so we burn less propane. The circuits will be if the heaters are up to heat and shut off then I will store energy, if that becomes excessive then sell power back to the utility.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 11, 2009 14:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
____ Well, TFD My proof of concept windmill has out produced my expectations, now to double the blade swept area go with a lot less pitch and see if I can get the thing to really produce. The goal is to use it to run some electric heaters so we burn less propane.

Sounds interesting, keep me posted. I've been interested in wind power since my high school days, but I'm too mechanically inept to actually build one.

You mentioned elsewhere that you're tweaking your prop to turn in low winds. Wind energy is proportional to V cubed, so if you tune your prop too slow, you risk missing out on a lot of energy on windy days.

Have you done the calculations for your area to determine the best wind speed range to aim for? Your local weather service should be able to provide statistics on wind speeds.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 11, 2009 16:36      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ TFD, there in lies the crux. an average, does not tell the story. There is either no breeze or a light breeze all most 40% of the time. The other 60% the winds vary from twelve to twenty five MPH.

____ I am still experimenting with what would work better a permanent Magnet dynamo, or an AC magneto. The magneto would have serious cogging getting going. The dynamo requires a higher spin up.

____ I still am staying on the low side of swept circle area so I do not bring down my tower. The three rotary to electrical units all can produce over one KW and one could go as high as 1.5 KW. Now all three units are rated for locations that do not provide good ventilation, so up on a tower in the wind I doubt that they will over heat.

____ There are some nice commercial units that are not over priced for what you get, they are made by Air-X. Their units if bought for sailboats or through farm stores are about a Dollar a watt, through a windmill outlet they seem to be made out of unobtainium.

____ Then there is this company that if their blades are as good as they claim I may invest in a set. So far My expenses have been less than his set of blades, small tower, three generators.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted December 13, 2009 07:23      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ TFD. Here are some links to wind energy basics.


http://www.windenergy.com/globalwindmaps/united_states.htm

____ At this site find Michigan, look at the maps, and you will find that I live in a no wind zone, however the second column Small wind consumer guide talks about flagging of trees, YOU BETCHA we got flagging.

____ In the prior post I forgot to add this link:

http://www.survivalunlimited.com/windpower/airx.htm

____ I know enough about Boat and Airplane propellers to figure out their blades and Helixes.

____ So as a mean we have no wind however when we have wind we have it by the boatload, actually I would prefer to have low steady breeze not such huge peaks.

____ I am sure that you have seen those yard and garden decorative windmills, up here the blades explode from high speed. Then there is the gyro effect, progression and regression from speed change, first thing to fail is the bearings, replace them and then the prior stress on the blade will cause it to fail.

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

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bull3t
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Icon 1 posted December 13, 2009 12:20      Profile for bull3t     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Global warming is a distraction. By now even you newbies know that I don't take too kindly to the evil global elites that wish nothing more than the utter destruction of the sovereignty of all nations. Before you even come with that high and mighty uber liberal crap, know that I love science, and understand that CO2 output from fossil fuels is harmful to the environment. The problem is, CO2 isn't melting the polar ice caps, or killing the purple spotted malaysian ass chicken. The earth heats up and cools down every so often. Thats a scientific fact.

Its plainly obvious to alot of us who pay attention, or have more of an inside perspective of the global situation that global warming (on the scale which the liberals cry about on tv) is a hoax. Time and time again, since the dawn of civilization, the powers that be have created distractions to occupy the minds of the predominantly stupid masses.

What is the world (and especially the American public) being distracted from?
  • An 8 year long, two front war that is realistically (from the mouths of those in control) projected to last at least 10 years longer (despite what Obama says)
  • The fact that said war has done nothing to curb terrorism in the world and has, if anything, stoked the flames of those who hate the western world.
  • Unemployment rates that have never been higher
  • The US government going so far into debt with other nations that our economy could be shattered by at least one nation if they so desired
  • The complete and utter destruction of morality in the western world. I'm don't mean that in the stupid way the the "Right" means, I mean that America is supposed to be a beacon of moral fortitude. We have become the number one practitioner of sleaze, greed, and general unwholesomeness in the world.
  • Most importantly, they are distracting the general public from the fact that all over the world, governments are slowly and carefully taking away the rights and liberties of their citizens. As I write this, somewhere someone is writing legislation that will attempt to take away just a bit more of our Constitutional Freedoms as Americans, and giving a cutesy name so people will think its for their own good.

Pollution is bad, don't get me wrong. I love nature (understatement), and I love our earth. Of course, I also love American V8 driven vehicles. But damn it, I'm an American, and I'm allowed to love both.

< /late night rant >

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted December 13, 2009 18:08      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
bull3t congratulations on a finely crafted piece of flame-bait. However while I enjoy your paranoid conspiracy theories, you need to work a little harder on the plausibility angle. In particular, have come across anyone so hypnotised by the spectre of global warming, that they are unaware of the war in Afghanistan, or the global economic crisis? Can you imagine any of your Dr Evils who could believe that such a fiendishly clever plan would work? It sounds more like Baldrick to me.
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted December 13, 2009 18:17      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
you need to work a little harder on the plausibility angle. In particular, have come across anyone so hypnotised by the spectre of global warming, that they are unaware of the war in Afghanistan

Plus, of course, the people behind those wars vehemently deny the greenhouse effect.

--------------------
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bull3t
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Icon 1 posted December 14, 2009 08:07      Profile for bull3t     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
you need to work a little harder on the plausibility angle. In particular, have come across anyone so hypnotised by the spectre of global warming, that they are unaware of the war in Afghanistan, or the global economic crisis?

There is a whole generation who is purposefully kept knowing as little about the world as possible, thanks to MTV, reality tv, and the overwhelming, renewed obsession with material goods.

I respect your opinion (you have been around GC long enough to know that I don't often say that phrase) and I understand that what I say might sound outrageous, but I see evidence everywhere. And yes, there are millions of Americans who don't know a damn thing about whats going on in Afghanistan. Hell, a shocking (and sad) number of Americans can't even point it out on a map. The media has its claws so deep into this younger generation that its terrifying! Take MTV for example: most of their top rated shows are "reality tv". Why pay attention to the world when you can worry about who some rich asshole on television is going to marry?! It might not be that bad across the pond, but I suspect its getting that way. Mainstream music in America is another example: the "hip hop" that the radio plays is nothing more than mindless repetitions about cars, jewelry, money, and women. American youths are more obsessed with flashy, ridiculous material possessions than ever before! ITS WORSE THAN THE 80S! These things, among others, are destroying the younger generations connection to the world.

I could name at least 15 soldiers from my unit that wouldn't have even known who or what Iraq and Afghanistan were, let alone that were were at war, if they had not signed up for the Army. One kid told me last week that he STILL didn't know where we were on the map (6 months into a deployment!), or why the Iraqis shoot mortars at us daily. I'm not lying, or joking. Its sad to me that the general public has become increasingly stupid over the last 20 years.

Anyway, my point is that people are sheep. Alot of people get the basic story about global warming--the earth is heating up because humans are EVIL and its all our fault and those poor penguins and polar bears! But can the average American, or Brit for that matter, tell you anything about the scientific "proof" of global warming? Or would they tell you something like "fossil fuels make Mother Earth cry!"?

Keep in mind, I am a "liberal" according to the scheme of American politics.. I am not a right wing nut job. I deny global warming because it is quite simply bullshit. The earth heats up and cools down drastically over thousands of years. The only difference between this time and the last is that human beings have actually noticed, and instead of realizing its a natural phenomenon, they have tried to place the blame on themselves.

BOTTOM LINE: Global warming is the perfect worldwide catastrophe to "unite" the world for the "greater good". Whether its actually happening or not (its not), it is being used to distract the world from the evil schemes of the people who are really in power.

And I challenge anyone who claims to be informed in current affairs to name me the total number of American service members who have died at war since 2001... without looking it up online.


Also, I would like to thank the British people for supporting America in their nation building projects in Iraq and Afghanistan. I don't mean that in a smart ass way at all. England is the only nation on earth that I'd want to live in aside from the USA. I appreciate the men and women in the British armed forces who have fought and died to help us in our current mess.

But enough of my ranting. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.. even if it differs from mine, which by default means that it is wrong. haha.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 14, 2009 08:59      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
bull3t:
I think you may be missing (or ignoring) the not-so-subtle difference between "kept knowing as little about the world as possible" and "allowed to know as little about the world as possible."

People aren't forced to watch MTV and reality shows. They aren't denied the opportunity to study maps and geography. They aren't forced to get their news from a single source.

Thanks to the internet, people today have more access to information about the world than any previous generation. You can try to blame TV and politicians, but the fact is that the only people who are ignorant of the larger world are those who choose to be.

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bull3t
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Icon 1 posted December 14, 2009 09:57      Profile for bull3t     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
damn you and your good points steen!

how you been? hows tn? i miss it :-\

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-William S Burroughs

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted December 14, 2009 15:07      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pesky facts. They always pop up at the most inopportune times. [Smile]

TNs is okay. We're in the part of the year where the weather can't make up its mind whether to be sunny or rainy, freezing cold or 60F. I'm mostly hiding inside and playing video games because all the sick people are out coughing on everyone while trying to find Christmas gifts.

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Icon 1 posted December 15, 2009 05:54      Profile for bull3t     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
yeah my wife is back at ft campbell, and she says the weather sucks. its been in the 40s in the morning here lately (relatively if you consider it was 130 during the day a few months) and we've been freezing our nubbies off!

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GC's Mosthated.
"I don’t care if people hate my guts; I assume most of them do. The important question is whether they are in a position to do anything about it."
-William S Burroughs

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