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Author Topic: the evils of homework!
guy_insane
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 18:03      Profile for guy_insane     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I read in popular science that too much homework inhibits learning in the future I would like your comments and feed back on this.

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the universe is as you perceive it so a change in perspective is a change in the universe- me november 2 2005

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ChildeRoland
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 18:13      Profile for ChildeRoland     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
I read that to much homework inhibits learning in the future i would like your comments and feed back on this.

Yeah, and I would like to see correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar in your posts. Looks like we're both SOL.

My opinion is that too much homework forces one to learn things such as spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Perhaps if you steer clear of your assignments you'll be able to keep posting like a 2nd grader for the rest of your life.
</rant>

Sorry to the rest of the board, but I wouldn't have posted anything like this if I thought I was the only one to feel this way.

On a serious note, does anyone think it odd that he didn't provide a source for his information? Everybody knows that homework is almost mandatory to actually learn and retain anything in school.

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guy_insane
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 18:46      Profile for guy_insane     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am sorry for my spelling and grammatical errors I tend to type fast and not go back to correct my mistakes for this you can blame instant messaging, and when I said too much I was referring to 2 hours of home work a day not just the average amount, and some of your statements are false, we do not need homework back in the days of one room school houses and living on the prairie there was no such thing as homework. This proves that as we progress through time either the educational system is failing or today’s youth are becoming much stupider I will let you decide. By the way your screan name is from an old folk tale thoth you would like to know and i am unfamiliar with the term SOL blease explain.

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the universe is as you perceive it so a change in perspective is a change in the universe- me november 2 2005

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csk

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 18:53      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
i am sorry for my spelling and gramatical errors i tend to type fast and not go back to correct my mistakes for this you can blame instant messaging

And this is exactly what the problem is with a lot of people today. The tendency to accept personal responsibility is all but dead. I don't make the effort to make sure my posts are as mistake free as possible? It's not my fault, it's instant messaging. Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the laziest people around, but I know it and attempt to control it.

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 18:58      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Far be it from me to feed a troll, but I would like to provide some education to this poor soul.

One-room schools typically had 20 students or much fewer. Thus, the opportunity for students to receive individualized attention was much greater than it is today. Keep in mind, too, that many schools, especially those on the Western frontier, did not meet for the minimum 180 days now mandated by most states (or is that a federal law? I forget. [Frown] ). Schools let out for harvest, for planting, teachers were hard to come by, and what teachers there were didn't have much more of an education than what they received in school. In the Dakota Territories, 'twas legal for a 16-year-old who had passed the eighth grade to apply for and receive his/her teacher's certificate. Remember, too, that most students had to go home and do a heck of a lot of chores before bed, disallowing enough time to do homework like we do today. Also consider the fact that materials were hard to come by. Students owned one slate (if they were lucky), and would copy homework onto their slate and carry it carefully to school. If it dropped or got erased, they were screwed.

Next time, instead of complaining about your homework, consider these blessings:

1. Mandatory education completed in a prescribed period of time
2. Readily available materials
3. Lots more info to build your knowledge base
4. Classes dedicated to your grade, not spread out to cover students in a variety of grades

EDIT: adjusted the above point "2."

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 20:30      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Rhonwyyn:

2. Plentiful materials (when was the last time you ran out of writing paper?)

Spanish, 1 period. Today.
It was a written essay and I ran out of paper and didn't have a pencil. Let's just say things didn't go very well

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 20:34      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, okay, so you do run out of stuff, but it's not going to break the bank to pick up a replacement on your way home, right? You don't have to wait for it to be hauled over the mountains and to scrounge an extra chicken or save a dozen eggs to barter for it! [Razz]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 21:17      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Run out of paper? Sounds like me from time to time during college/uni. - but I'd just get creative with my already small handwriting. [Big Grin] I also ditched notebooks somewhere during or after my second year, and opted instead to make use of the overabundance of recycled printer paper that was around. The way I saw it, I wasn't planning on using the notes for an extremely long period of time, so what was the point of buying paper for it. Why couldn't there have been some cute environmentalists around to throw themselves at me for my ultra-conservation? [Wink]

I don't think I've bought paper since grade school... (and I recently found a mostly empty notebook from then which I've repurposed)

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Rhonwyyn

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Icon 1 posted November 07, 2005 21:22      Profile for Rhonwyyn   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hehe... sounds like me during my junior year in college. I bought a 5"x8" day planner at Wal-mart (this was before I stopped shopping there) that had a black velvet cover with pink satin decorations, a pink clicky-pen, room for addresses, notes, etc. That semester I honed my penmanshp into legibility at 3p or smaller! People who wanted to copy my notes rethought it when they actually saw my writing. Definitely worked well for me, though, 'cause I didn't have much extra room in the bag in which I carried my stuff.

But yeah, usually I didn't take notes in class.

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Change the way you SEE, not the way you LOOK!

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 03:29      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
I read in popular science that too much homework inhibits learning in the future I would like your comments and feed back on this.

I remember when I was at school becoming very scared that my brain would fill up and one day, I would just not be able to learn anything new because there would be nowhere to put it. Silly eh? - but I was only 8 years old at the time. Don't worry about your homework, hard work never hurt anybody.

Try rereading your posts for grammatical errors. This is a forum, not AIM, and people here try to give thoughtful considered opinions not just off the cuff reactions. If you try to express yourself clearly simply and accurately, it not only makes it easier for us to understand, but also encourages clarity of thought in yourself. A useful rule of thumb is that if you cannot express a something simply in ordinary language, it's usually bullshit. Spellcheck apps are not at all time consuming, so your spelling mistakes are not just laziness but rudeness too. It's insulting. I shouldn't need to work hard to understand what you are trying to say.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 06:31      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
i am sorry for my spelling and gramatical errors i tend to type fast and not go back to correct my mistakes for this you can blame instant messaging

And this is exactly what the problem is with a lot of people today. The tendency to accept personal responsibility is all but dead. I don't make the effort to make sure my posts are as mistake free as possible? It's not my fault, it's instant messaging.
My spelling errors are my fault. Your inability to cope is yours. [evil] [Big Grin]

quote:
Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the laziest people around, but I know it and attempt to control it.
quote:
Quoting Rhonwyyn:
1. Mandatory education completed in a prescribed period of time

Are you sure this is a good thing? Look at the watering down at the university level now that "everyone needs a college degree"... I've had too many courses cover too little, for fear of leaving people behind. I think the whole structure is need of serious looking at. I can see perhaps the need for some highschool, but by the end they begin passing people if they have the marks or not.

quote:
2. Readily available materials
Some places too readily available and misued, others not enough... Every school is equal, some just more equal than others. Some places have resources that are going to waste, and others don't have enough to scrimp by.

quote:
3. Lots more info to build your knowledge base
Education isn't about raw information... If that's all it was then degrees wouldn't be needed, we all just have to have the internet. It's the aplication of some knowledge set to a various problems, and it's about a methodologies -- not facts. I can look facts up, what you can't look up is an approach or an explaination of how to use those facts and why those facts are true.

I'm always warry when a teacher says, "You should memorize this..." If it doesn't become ingrained because of repeated use of the fact, it's something I'm just memorizing for your test, and your not really teaching me. If a teacher says, "This is something you should know for the test, and here's how to derive it from first princibles...", then I'll probably be able to derive it again when I really need it in the real world.

quote:
4. Classes dedicated to your grade, not spread out to cover students in a variety of grades
Classes dedicated to grade based on age is just plain STUPID. All through highschool I used to complain "why do I have to sit through XYZ, when I already get it? Why can't I be in the next level of XYZ?" Typically the answer was "This is the nth grades XYZ class, your in nth grade." Personally determining courses level based on abilities and prior knowledge instead (like higher education does) is much better. I see nothing wrong realizing that differeny people excel in different things and learn some thing at a faster pase than other things.

In that regard, in the olden days, there would be nothing stopping the teacher from going "johnny is good at reading and should read X with the class above him, and is slow at math and should be doing problems like the class under him" In modern highschool it's easy for the school to make/let you repeat, but hard to get them to skip you ahead -- and earlier education they keep the students subjects in lockstep...

This goes into my whole rant about specialization needing to happen earlier in American school systems.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 06:59      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
I read that to much homework inhibits learning in the future i would like your comments and feed back on this.

Yeah, and I would like to see correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar in your posts. Looks like we're both SOL.

My opinion is that too much homework forces one to learn things such as spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Perhaps if you steer clear of your assignments you'll be able to keep posting like a 2nd grader for the rest of your life.
</rant>

Sorry to the rest of the board, but I wouldn't have posted anything like this if I thought I was the only one to feel this way.

On a serious note, does anyone think it odd that he didn't provide a source for his information? Everybody knows that homework is almost mandatory to actually learn and retain anything in school.

While I agree with your statements about his bad spelling and grammar, as I tend to be a bit of a grammar nazi myself, I wholeheartedly disagree with the homework being mandatory to learn.

I've found, at least anecdotally, that while homework does help drill things into your head, it makes you not want to learn anymore, because it accelerates your dislike for school and learning when you're forced to sit in your room at 4pm and do your homework instead of go out and play with your friends. If you have an interest in learning something, you're a helluva lot more likely to remember it than if you were forced to remember it.

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guy_insane
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 14:48      Profile for guy_insane     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
quote:
Originally posted by ChildeRoland:
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
I read that to much homework inhibits learning in the future i would like your comments and feed back on this.

Yeah, and I would like to see correct spelling, punctuation, and grammar in your posts. Looks like we're both SOL.

My opinion is that too much homework forces one to learn things such as spelling, grammar, and punctuation. Perhaps if you steer clear of your assignments you'll be able to keep posting like a 2nd grader for the rest of your life.
</rant>

Sorry to the rest of the board, but I wouldn't have posted anything like this if I thought I was the only one to feel this way.

On a serious note, does anyone think it odd that he didn't provide a source for his information? Everybody knows that homework is almost mandatory to actually learn and retain anything in school.

While I agree with your statements about his bad spelling and grammar, as I tend to be a bit of a grammar nazi myself, I wholeheartedly disagree with the homework being mandatory to learn.

I've found, at least anecdotally, that while homework does help drill things into your head, it makes you not want to learn anymore, because it accelerates your dislike for school and learning when you're forced to sit in your room at 4pm and do your homework instead of go out and play with your friends. If you have an interest in learning something, you're a helluva lot more likely to remember it than if you were forced to remember it.

Thank you this is the point i was trying to make all along! [Applause]

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the universe is as you perceive it so a change in perspective is a change in the universe- me november 2 2005

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HalfVast

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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 15:19      Profile for HalfVast     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Thank you this is the point i was trying to make all along!
Well why didn't you just say so... [Razz]
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guy_insane
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 16:58      Profile for guy_insane     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by HalfVast:
quote:
Thank you this is the point i was trying to make all along!
Well why didn't you just say so... [Razz]
because not only would that deafet the purpose of a fourm but i did not have the frame of mind to state it that way.

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the universe is as you perceive it so a change in perspective is a change in the universe- me november 2 2005

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 16:59      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can't understand why you imagine that school work should be unlike every other form of work in that some of it is repetitive and dull, but a necessary chore. Homework is also a way of letting you know that you, rather than your teachers and school, are ultimately responsible for maximising your own academic potential.

If you want anecdotal evidence, my eldest two children have just passed through the UK state secondary education system, where homework is almost non existent. This did not inspire them to any feats of scholarship, and indeed when at the age of 16 or so they found themselves faced with examinations that required actual independent work and effort on their part, they both found this change very hard to adjust to, and complained bitterly that it was a completely unacceptable breach of their teenage rights to a stress free cool lifestyle.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 17:07      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
because not only would that deafet the purpose of a fourm but i did not have the frame of mind to state it that way.

yet another half arsed, ill thought out, badly spelled post.

Why don't you surprise us by showing some capacity for logical thought (or indeed any thought at all), and clear expression?

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 17:09      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am finding that I agree with Calli more and more.
Maybe I am getting old and bitter, but Callipygous' perspective increasingly makes more sense to me.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 21:41      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
<rant>
For all the bitchy, whiny little students and all the bitchy, bitter ex-students...

1) There is a certain level of education you need to function in today's society. Get used to it.

2) To learn a new skill or concept, you must practice and review. You must do this a lot. That's why teachers handout the dreaded homework. In high school especially they really spoon-feed you with information, but they still don't have time to guide you through the whole process of learning somethign new. I'm sorry, but effort is required. That's just the way the human mind works. Don't like it? Then decapitate yourself. Or something.

3) As you advance in education, the amount of spoon-feeding decreases exponentially. Your collge professors and TAs will expect you to show up for class with your problem sets done and book chapters read. They will act on these expectations. They will not be sympathetic if you don't do the work. They will not care if you have a life outside the class. Their job is to teach you the material, not accomodate your lifestyle. And your job is to learn. Your university profs and your TA will not be trained pedagogues. Your TA will have been througha couple workshops; your prof will just have some distant and fairly lousy miseries of his or her TA days. Days filled with grading and students who were too lazy to do their assignments whining about their deserved test scores... You are not entitled to your learning. You must earn your knowledge.

Eventually you hit a point where you are expected to learn independently. This can be either at a real job or in grad school. You will be expected to get a book or a pick a google search term and read. Oh the horror, the pain...

All that aside, I'd much MUCH MUCH rather just sit downa read than sit through a fscking lecture. I'm sick of classrooms. I'd rather do homework than sit ina another room in an uncomfortbale chair and listen to some bastard who also has better things to do drone on and on about something that was interesting before he opened his mouth and started talking. Seriously. Just give me the reading and then we can both go home.
</rant>

Sorry, just some bitterness from a professional student. Why the hell do people expect learning to be easy? Learning is never easy. Learning is hard. Learning is painful. Even if you're interested in the material it's still brutal. You may not notice the agony, but it's there.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 22:12      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Xanthine wrote:
Learning is never easy. Learning is hard. Learning is painful. Even if you're interested in the material it's still brutal. You may not notice the agony, but it's there.

And some of us are unrepentant masochists who go out of our way for that particular agony.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted November 08, 2005 22:15      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I resemble that remark. [Razz]

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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guy_insane
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 16:43      Profile for guy_insane     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I am mad because the school i am going to somtimes gives homework just for the sake of giving home work i understand homework is neccisary but YOU CAN HAVE TO MUCH OF A GOOD OR NESSARY THING!

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the universe is as you perceive it so a change in perspective is a change in the universe- me november 2 2005

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guy_insane
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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 17:09      Profile for guy_insane     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
because not only would that deafet the purpose of a fourm but i did not have the frame of mind to state it that way.

yet another half arsed, ill thought out, badly spelled post.

Why don't you surprise us by showing some capacity for logical thought (or indeed any thought at all), and clear expression?

well excuse me for having ADD it is not my fault you know. [Mad] [devil wand] [Mad]

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the universe is as you perceive it so a change in perspective is a change in the universe- me november 2 2005

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DoctorWho

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Icon 8 posted November 09, 2005 17:18      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
quote:
Originally posted by guy_insane:
because not only would that deafet the purpose of a fourm but i did not have the frame of mind to state it that way.

yet another half arsed, ill thought out, badly spelled post.

Why don't you surprise us by showing some capacity for logical thought (or indeed any thought at all), and clear expression?

well excuse me for having ADD it is not my fault you know. [Mad] [devil wand] [Mad]
[Mad] That is a cop out. [Mad] My ten-year-old ADD/Bipolar son can form more coherent sentences and thoughts than you. You can do it if you put forth the effort.

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supergoo

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Icon 1 posted November 09, 2005 18:36      Profile for supergoo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think your attitude (and other high schoolers' attitudes) towards homework is analogous to my attitude towards practicing the piano.

I mean, I wanted to be a virtuoso, I really did. I imagined myself effortlessly tinkering out Greig and Gershwin, Handel and Haydn, Beethoven and Bach. I wanted the ability to impress my friends and say that yes, I was really good at something.

However, when it came down to practicing the scales and going over the songs I was supposed to learn that week, I was just entirely too lazy. I made up excuses for myself, like "I have too much homework" or "Practice would be useless, I'm too far behind anyway." I eventually realized that becoming really good at the piano involved spending 2+ hours a day practicing. So finally during my junior year of HS, I realized that I could never be as good as I wanted to be because I lacked a) talent and b) determination. I did not invest the proper amount of time to improve, and thus I suffered the consequence of being a failure.

Sure, there are many things we would like to do, and would like to be really good at, but are we willing to invest time into this? LOTS of time? Homework is designed to be a safety net to enforce studying. Teachers want to make sure that you look over material, so they give you graded assignments to make you study. If you don't study, you get a bad grade. This is to prepare you for later on in life, where you must be the one to make yourself study. If you don't go over the reading, you won't get a zero for a homework grade, but you will eventually fsck yourself over for a test later on.

It would be nice to be a Hedonist. It would be nice to go to school, come home, and laze around the house all day. However, ultimately it would lead to a life of fruitlessness and dissatisfaction. I only expect to be here another 70 or so years, maybe even less. Therefore, I would like to learn as much as I can in the time that I have.

goo

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