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Author Topic: Reason & Logic?
cheezi git
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 03:46      Profile for cheezi git     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:

Ah, I just can't let it alone, can I?

you wouldn't let it lie
salamander

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there were so many stains on the road. squashed miss mitten-shaped stains in the universe. squashed frog-shaped stains in the universe. squashed crows that tried to eat the squashed frog-shaped stains in the universe. squashed dogs...

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 07:45      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by TheAnnoyedCockroach:
Erm, the Pharisees were actually the more "liberal" of the Jewish priests, which is why they even spoke Greek in the first place. Perhaps you refer to the Sadducees, who were the strictest of the lot at the time.

Hmmm, gee I always got the impression it was the other way around. Let's see what a Sadducee is according to dictionary.com

Sadducees The origin of this Jewish sect cannot definitely be traced. It was probably the outcome of the influence of Grecian customs and philosophy during the period of Greek domination. The first time they are met with is in connection with John the Baptist's ministry. They came out to him when on the banks of the Jordan, and he said to them, "O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?" (Matt. 3:7.) The next time they are spoken of they are represented as coming to our Lord tempting him. He calls them "hypocrites" and "a wicked and adulterous generation" (Matt. 16:1-4; 22:23). The only reference to them in the Gospels of Mark (12:18-27) and Luke (20:27-38) is their attempting to ridicule the doctrine of the resurrection, which they denied, as they also denied the existence of angels. They are never mentioned in John's Gospel. There were many Sadducees among the "elders" of the Sanhedrin. They seem, indeed, to have been as numerous as the Pharisees (Acts 23:6). They showed their hatred of Jesus in taking part in his condemnation (Matt. 16:21; 26:1-3, 59; Mark 8:31; 15:1; Luke 9:22; 22:66). They endeavoured to prohibit the apostles from preaching the resurrection of Christ (Acts 2:24, 31, 32; 4:1, 2; 5:17, 24-28). They were the deists or sceptics of that age. They do not appear as a separate sect after the destruction of Jerusalem.

It looks to me that the Sadducees were more "liberal" than Phariseess especially since they didn't believe in angels and the Old Testament clearly taught that their are angels. Hmmm are you sure you have it right?

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 12:57      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok I know it is usually bad form to reply to your own post, however, I would like a chance to correct myself here. I did a little more digging and found that the Saducees were indeed the older sect of Jews as compared to the Pharisees. They were also supposedly the more conservative group, they were the "aristocrats". The Pharisees on the other hand were the ones who believed in the oral tradition, resurrection and angels/devils, and they were also popular with the people. The Sadducees were the opposite.

Jesus held some of the same beliefs as Pharisees, however, he was concerned more with the intention of the law rather than holding to the letter of it.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 14:08      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Sorry, but there is no God
Posts: 5471 | From: One of the drones from sector 7G | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
DoctorWho

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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 15:03      Profile for DoctorWho     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
Sorry, but there is no God

Oh come on now you can do better. The least you could do is show us your proof. We have had this discussion recently on the board in the Is There A God topic. My replies on that subject are on pages 2 and 4.

Show us you at least have a reason for your opinion.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

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Orbhead
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 16:13      Profile for Orbhead   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I totally thought this was going to be a post about how to get Reason and Logic Audio to work together. Something I thus far have been unable to do with success.
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+Andrew
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 16:32      Profile for +Andrew   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:
quote:
Originally posted by ShadyLady:
Show me the father that would kill his own children.

Like, er, Cronus? [Wink]

It's true, Shady, looking for logic in the Old Testament is like ...

... like looking for peace in the Middle East, probably. [Frown]

Or, IIRC, Abraham. Someone from the Old Testament, at least, was asked by God to sacrifice his son and was about to when God told him not to because it was only a test. (I know I was supposed to learn this back in middle-school religion class, but that was so long ago..)

Andrew

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TheAnnoyedCockroach
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Icon 1 posted September 19, 2002 18:47      Profile for TheAnnoyedCockroach   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by CrawGator:
Ok I know it is usually bad form to reply to your own post, however, I would like a chance to correct myself here. I did a little more digging and found that the Saducees were indeed the older sect of Jews as compared to the Pharisees. They were also supposedly the more conservative group, they were the "aristocrats". The Pharisees on the other hand were the ones who believed in the oral tradition, resurrection and angels/devils, and they were also popular with the people. The Sadducees were the opposite.

Jesus held some of the same beliefs as Pharisees, however, he was concerned more with the intention of the law rather than holding to the letter of it.

Mmm... Ego rush....

No, really. I just started taking a class where I learned all of that. It's a truly interesting subject, which is a first. Most of my religion classes have been staggeringly dull, and I have largely ignored them, preferring to figure out my own perspective on things.

But this theology class is something else entirely. Fascinating stuff.

'Course, I'm sure the teacher helps.

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Mosh! Mosh for your suppers!

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Subar
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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2002 00:27      Profile for Subar     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by ShadyLady:

This same guy,God, produces this GREAT FLOOD to punish and destoy his own creations.How logical is that?

And if god created man in his own image why are there so many christians contaminated with greed,revenge, and all other world destroying evil qualities?

First of all, if you could create these little insignificant-compared-to-you creatures and they started to disobey everything you wanted them to do, all but one of them didn't listen to a thing you said, and they were killing each other left and right, wouldn't you wipe them out instead of watching them slowly kill each other off?

Second, God originally created us in His image. If you create something with free will, it will change. Ever since Adam and Eve sinned in Eden, we have fallen a long way from what we were meant to be. If it wasn't for sin, we wouldn't be greedy, vengeful, and have evil qualities. And as for Christians having these qualities, becoming a Christian doesn't make you perfect. But, if you are a true Christian you should try to overcome the qualities. Although while you're alive, you will never be free of all evil qualities.

In case you're wondering after you read this, yes I am a Christian.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 20, 2002 09:12      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Subar wrote:
Second, God originally created us in His image. If you create something with free will, it will change. Ever since Adam and Eve sinned in Eden, we have fallen a long way from what we were meant to be. If it wasn't for sin, we wouldn't be greedy, vengeful, and have evil qualities.

Now wait... if God created us in His image, it stands to reason that we'd be rather like Him and the more different we are from Him, the further we've fallen. He then got pissed off and wiped out virtually the entire race when we didn't behave the way he wanted us to. I don't think we've fallen as far as a lot of people seem to believe....

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ShadyLady
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2002 06:33      Profile for ShadyLady     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
There are many other events that took place that are impossible to fathom...

  • Thousands of tons of oceans moving aside to create a magical pathway
  • A big fish swallowing this guy Jonah who survives
  • The burning bush that talks
The bible is all fallacies! [Confused] [Confused]
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TheAnnoyedCockroach
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Icon 1 posted September 21, 2002 11:04      Profile for TheAnnoyedCockroach   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Perhaps part of the problem is that you're taking a rather literalist view of the Bible, and that makes things a bit confusing no matter what Holy Book you happen to be studying.

We've no way to discover whether or not any of these things actually ever happened, although the flood is actually a rather viable one, as many ancient religions have a flood story, so obviously a flood occured. As for the parting of the Red Sea, there is actualy a geological phenomenon in that area that does cause the sea to part (I think, anyhow. I'm working off of half-forgotten memories at the moment) somewhat, and would have allowed the Israelites to cross. Or was that the River Jordan... Hmm, think it was the river.

The whole point I'm trying to make is that a literal interperatation of scripture will of course lead to contradictions and confusions. The Bible has been retranslated over the years, and these stories are thousands of years old, many of them having been passed for generations by oral tradition before being written down. Take the creation story, for example. The point isn't that God created the world in 7 days. The number seven was actually chosen because it had religious implications at the time. The point of that story is that every time God created something, he looked at it, and "It was good."

I would suggest taking a theology course if you're looking for answers. I find that looking at things from a different perspective seems to help me understand things, at least.

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Mosh! Mosh for your suppers!

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maxomai
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Icon 13 posted September 21, 2002 12:06      Profile for maxomai   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Subar:
quote:
Originally posted by ShadyLady:

This same guy,God, produces this GREAT FLOOD to punish and destoy his own creations.How logical is that?

And if god created man in his own image why are there so many christians contaminated with greed,revenge, and all other world destroying evil qualities?

First of all, if you could create these little insignificant-compared-to-you creatures and they started to disobey everything you wanted them to do, all but one of them didn't listen to a thing you said, and they were killing each other left and right, wouldn't you wipe them out instead of watching them slowly kill each other off?
No, I wouldn't. This is because, unlike the 17th-century-Chrisendom version of God, I've figured out that some species just need to figure things out for themselves.

It's part of that "tough love" deal.

(Do I presume to judge God? Of course not. Do I presume to judge people who push a jealous and arbitrary sky-God as the One And Only Lord of Lords? You bet.)

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"Fear not at all; fear neither men nor Fates, nor gods, nor anything. Money fear not, nor laughter of the folk folly, nor any other power in heaven or upon the earth or under the earth. Nu is your refuge as Hadit your light; and I am the strength, force, vigour, of your arms." -Liber AL III:17

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Rathalister
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Icon 5 posted September 21, 2002 12:37      Profile for Rathalister   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Now wait... if God created us in His image, it stands to reason that we'd be rather like Him and the more different we are from Him, the further we've fallen.

I have a hard time seeing mankind as created in gods image. God is supposed to be omniscient, omnipotent, and usually omnibenevolent. I don't see any of this in mankind, these are thing that are hard for man to fully comprehend, much less obtain. Modern religion tends to depict god as nonphysical, also something very different from man. The only gods that I can see as sharing the image of man kind are the greek/roman gods, constantly bickering and fighting with each other.

Another thing that I thought of a while back is this:
If god is omniscient then he know what the best possible action is in all cases.
If god is omnipotent then he is capable of carrying out this best action.
If god is omnibenevolent then he will carry out this best possible action.
If god will always carry out the best possible action then he no free will as his action is always predetermined.

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neotatsu
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Icon 1 posted September 22, 2002 00:20      Profile for neotatsu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
The way I see it is if you beleive in god then you beleive in fate. God is supposedly omniscient, and already has a 'plan' for everyone according to his will, therefore it's 'fated', hell, to make jonah adhere to his plan he threw the man into a big fish..

Here's another thing to think about, God created Adam, and from Adam he created Eve.. Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel. Cain killed Abel.. then suddenly there's all sorts of people around, what happened to the story of THOSE people's creation? Or are we all the result of genetic inbreeding? Is that why Ebonics exists? Are we all actually distant relatives of eachother? On a slightly unrelated tangent: What would you do if you found out your significant other was related to you in some minute near impossible to trace way, such as a fifth cousin twice removed?

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I'm curious... About what, you ask? EVERYTHING!

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ShadyLady
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Icon 1 posted September 22, 2002 02:21      Profile for ShadyLady     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's another one, there are many different interpretations to the bible.And because it was originally written in hebrew as far back as BC centuries,since then it has passed through many translators and editors.Do u really believe that the bible as u know it today is even remotely close to the original? Some information could have been distorted and other stories exaggerated.

Evidence for different traditions behind the old testament stories can be detected through variations and duplicaions...for example In Genesis 2:4-3:24 tells the well known story of God shaping man-Adam-from the soil of the ground, and settling him in the garden of eden.There adam is free to eat all he wants except the fruit from the tree of knowledge. God then creates birds and animals, and also Eve-from one of his ribs.Then they eat the fruit and get which results in their expulsion from eden. BUT>>> before the adam and eve story there is another account of the creation-probably set at a later date-In Genesis 2:4a. Here God creates the world in 7 days, and man AFTER the animals not before, as implied in Genesis 2:4-3:24.

Such anomalies can be found elsewhere. Anyway my point being how can christians believe this obviously false biblical scripture????

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Tell your boss what you think of him, and the truth shall set you free...or in my case it'll get you expelled.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted September 22, 2002 11:33      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:
What would you do if you found out your significant other was related to you in some minute near impossible to trace way, such as a fifth cousin twice removed?

I'd shrug my shoulders and keep on loving him. At this point the blood between us is so dilute the genetic risks are no higher than normal and obviously that branch of the family has been out of touch for a long, long time.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

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