posted September 21, 2003 22:03                   

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:
Believing in God is not an irrational or rational decision. It's not something you can say test for, prove, or determine by experiment.

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Ok, you just knew I'd jump in here, didn't you?

There's a reason Jehovah can't be tested for, proven, or disproven. It's because the definition of God has been carefully refined over the centuries to make it unfalsifiable.

Three of the standard qualities of Jehovah in christian theology are that he's

a) All Knowing (Omniscient)
b) All Powerful (Omnipotent)
c) Hiding.

Not a lot of hope of disproving that one.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

posted September 21, 2003 23:10                   

quote:

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Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:
Believing in God is not an irrational or rational decision. It's not something you can say test for, prove, or determine by experiment.

---

Ok, you just knew I'd jump in here, didn't you?

There's a reason Jehovah can't be tested for, proven, or disproven. It's because the definition of God has been carefully refined over the centuries to make it unfalsifiable.

Three of the standard qualities of Jehovah in christian theology are that he's

a) All Knowing (Omniscient)
b) All Powerful (Omnipotent)
c) Hiding.

Not a lot of hope of disproving that one.

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You're right, I posted that just to suck you in

OK, all omniscient and omnipotent I agree with. Surely those have been in the definition since the beginning (if I'm wrong there, I'm happy to find out why...)

But "hiding"? I haven't heard any Bible-based argument that God has gone off to hide, and to let the world run itself. I've forgotten the technical name for that viewpoint (the clockwork Universe, that God started off, then left it to run by itself), but the Bible certainly seems to imply that the Universe continues to exist and run only because God causes it to.

Always happy to hear alternative points of view, though...

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6 weeks to go!

posted September 22, 2003 00:33                   

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Famous Druid:

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:
Believing in God is not an irrational or rational decision. It's not something you can say test for, prove, or determine by experiment.

---

Ok, you just knew I'd jump in here, didn't you?

There's a reason Jehovah can't be tested for, proven, or disproven. It's because the definition of God has been carefully refined over the centuries to make it unfalsifiable.

Three of the standard qualities of Jehovah in christian theology are that he's

a) All Knowing (Omniscient)
b) All Powerful (Omnipotent)
c) Hiding.

Not a lot of hope of disproving that one.

---

You're right, I posted that just to suck you in

OK, all omniscient and omnipotent I agree with. Surely those have been in the definition since the beginning (if I'm wrong there, I'm happy to find out why...)

But "hiding"? I haven't heard any Bible-based argument that God has gone off to hide, and to let the world run itself. I've forgotten the technical name for that viewpoint (the clockwork Universe, that God started off, then left it to run by itself), but the Bible certainly seems to imply that the Universe continues to exist and run only because God causes it to.

Always happy to hear alternative points of view, though...

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posted September 22, 2003 01:34                   

quote:

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Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
One of the questions theologians have had to answer is
"If Jehovah really exists, why doesn't he pop round to our church of a Sunday morning, appear before us as a pillar of fire, and clarify some of the finer points of doctrine for us?"

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posted September 22, 2003 02:14                   

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
One of the questions theologians have had to answer is
"If Jehovah really exists, why doesn't he pop round to our church of a Sunday morning, appear before us as a pillar of fire, and clarify some of the finer points of doctrine for us?"

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I think the story of Lazarus in Luke 16 deals with that issue. Basically, a dead bloke wants to go back and warn his (still living) brothers not to end up in hell like he did. The answer given is that the brothers have Moses and the prophets, and that is enough for them. It's also suggested that they won't be persuaded even if someone did rise from the dead (or appear as a pillar of fire).

There's also that whole "blessed are those who believe, yet have not seen" Thomas thing, too.

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posted September 23, 2003 08:40                   

quote:

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Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
However you spin it, he's still hiding.

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posted October 01, 2003 16:21                   

quote:

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Originally posted by d3m057h3n35:
why would he hide from people he wishes to save?

or is my understanding about doctrine flawed here? (this isn't sarcastic, but a real question)

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He has to be hiding, how else do you explain why he's not appearing on the talk-shows, explaining carefully to the masses the correct position on moral and theological issues ?

(btw - I am being sarcastic )

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

posted October 01, 2003 17:23                      

quote:

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Originally posted by CrawGator:

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world {read as Satan} hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


God is only hiding from people that don't want to find Him in the first place.

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posted October 01, 2003 20:19                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Twinkle Toes:
If Satan has blinded those which do not believe, and their only hope is if Christ/God decides to 'shine His light upon them,' then there are a select number of people who are destined to damnation. Therefore, if God is all-knowing, 'He' already knows who makes up that select number of people and thus has no reason to try and save them. Doesn't this contradict what is said about God being able to save everyone?

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Predestination was doomed from the start.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

posted October 02, 2003 08:21                      

quote:

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Originally posted by SpikeSpiegel:
organized religion contradicts itself regularly, its best not to pay attention to what it says

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Words to live by!

posted October 02, 2003 10:15                   

quote:

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Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Predestination was doomed from the start.

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Look at that, something we can both agree on concerning this topic.

Absolute predestination is definitely an erroneous Calvinistic belief.

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Laughter is like changing a baby's diapers. It doesn't solve anything but it sure improves the situation. Leo F. Buscaglia

posted October 02, 2003 17:30                   

quote:

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Originally posted by Xanthine:
Yeah, I never got that one. That and the whole city on a hill bit - I really think there was more than tobacco in the the pipes my ancestors smoked.

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posted October 02, 2003 23:09                   

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:
Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

The Bible seems to suggest what CrawGator calls "absolute predestination".

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I knew you were going to say that !

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

posted October 03, 2003 02:28                   

quote:

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Originally posted by csk:
Just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

The Bible seems to suggest what CrawGator calls "absolute predestination". Ephesians 1:4-5 says "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy in blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasere and will".

Of course absolute future knowledge and absolute predestination raises some thorny theological issues. If God knew that he could have prevented the existence of evil by acting in a certain way (eg, not giving humans free will), but chose not to, is he still the perfectly moral being we thought He was?

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