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Author
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Topic: Is there a god?
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GameMaster
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posted August 27, 2002 13:30
BlueLasar, you talk of man like it is somehow above all other creates on this planet and in this universe. Man is NOT above the animal kingdom in anyway, other than, arguably, the evolution of intelligence in man that is unique to this planet (which I firmly disagree with anyways, seems to me the dolphin is the smartest). Therefore, ants are not meaningless and we have just as much right to exist and carry out our gentic programming as they do. The earth is only one small planet, and if we are alone in this universe it would be an awful waste of space, besides the prinicble of normailty is the only concept that let's us assume we know ANYTHING about extra-solar planets, therefor we must asume WE are the norm. If we are the norm, then about 1 in every 9 planets orbiting the same type of star as us contains life that is intelligent and broadcasting. Considering all of these other possible speicies on all of these other possible planets, isn't it egotistical to believe that this universe was created for the sole purpose of creating humans in "god's own image" to keep "him" company. Persoanally, I believe that is a deity, but logically if a single detiy exsists, it would not have gender, as the sole reason for gender is mating; thus if "god" has a gender, then there are many of them... I also don't see why the deity would care if it is being worshiped or not. I believe that the deity has set eveything in motion and doesn't touch it till it's done (much like a Rube Golberg Machine) but there are powerful spiritual forces that the being that exsist in this universe can use... The ability to use this energy comes from having faith that it (or something) is there and believing that it can be used to affect the real world. Studies prove that prayer seems to increase recovery time, even if the person who is being prayed for doesn't know about it... I believe the study to be true, not because I think "god" had a hand in saving them, but that the positive energy, Karma or Chi had positive afffects on the immune system. Does this mean that I believe that we can stop death from happening? No. So, it goes back to what Neo was saying, it is that you blieve, not what you believe.
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BlueLaser
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posted August 27, 2002 18:12
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GameMaster:
BlueLasar, you talk of man like it is somehow above all other creates on this planet and in this universe. Man is NOT above the animal kingdom in anyway, other than, arguably, the evolution of intelligence in man that is unique to this planet
God blessed them and said to them, ‘‘Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.” Genesis 1:28 The earth is only one small planet, and if we are alone in this universe it would be an awful waste of space, besides the prinicble of normailty is the only concept that let's us assume we know ANYTHING about extra-solar planets, therefor we must asume WE are the norm. If we are the norm, then about 1 in every 9 planets orbiting the same type of star as us contains life that is intelligent and broadcasting. Considering all of these other possible speicies on all of these other possible planets, isn't it egotistical to believe that this universe was created for the sole purpose of creating humans in "god's own image" to keep "him" company. Well i believe there are other forms of intelligent life out there. I forgot where it's said in the Bible. But anyway, i logically believe this since it'll be an aweful waste of space. However, i would also say that Earth is the centre of all attention. Meaning other intelligient life are able to see what's going on on earth and it's the stage where good and evil rages. Who this intellegent beings are? I don't know, but they are created by God and put into other planets. i further believe that humans would be the test of God's love ever since Satan accused God of being authoritarian. That's why Man had a perfect choice to choose what to believe and follow. And in the midst of evil and good, Man has to decide which is the better. But, evil can exist in a great variety of ways. Even 1 falsity in an ocean of truth can make it false. Therefore, it is our duty to continue pursuing that which is pure truth. We mustn't "settle down" on a belief system but must continue to pursue what's true. Persoanally, I believe that is a deity, but logically if a single detiy exsists, it would not have gender, as the sole reason for gender is mating; thus if "god" has a gender, then there are many of them... I beg to differ. Firstly, God doesn't need to mate. Why would he since there's the Trinity? What use does having more gods have? Aren't they all powerful and all knowing? Therefore, their policy was "stop at 3". But as for them having a gender. I'm not sure, but i know Jesus was a man. ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I also don't see why the deity would care if it is being worshiped or not. Why wouldn't he care since he created us? Furthermore, if He is able to be worshipped by humans who truly love him, what goodness it is! So, i don't believe that God doesn't care. And that leads us to prayer. Prayer is talking to God and it's one of 3 reasons why ppl can be healed or anything like that. 2nd reason is the evil one has healed them. Why would the evil one do so? Coz it's to deceive ppl. Think of how many ways Satan can use to make sure you fall in the end. The 3rd reason is normal recovery.
I would encourage you to consider studying the Bible yourself in your pursuit of truth.
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BlueLaser
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posted August 27, 2002 18:14
pardon the formatting. i don't really know HTML.
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DoctorWho
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posted August 27, 2002 19:06
quote:
Originally posted by neotatsu:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightangel99:
[b]Dude, Yes. There is a God, and he loves you, and he will prove it when the time comes. People always wonder why God lets bad things happen to people. The truth is, people do bad things to people. But God loves them all anyway. And there is proof of Noah's ark, a great flood ect. ect. People always say that the universe was created by such and such atoms coming together, and such, no, God created the universe, even if that was true, where did those atoms come from? Don't forget...
Prove it. BTW probably the most common arguement is 'if god loves me so much, why does he allow such bad things to happen?' and don't give me the cock and bull story of 'because of adam and eve eating the fruit', personally I would think that if he loves us so much he would give us ALL each our own chance to decide, rather than condemn us all to suffering just because of two people, and I don't want to hear bullshit about how 'you still have a chance becuase of jesus' because that dosn't change the fact that people have to suffer on earth before hand, assuming it's true.
"Why does God permit suffering?" Why do we humans permit suffering is what I want to know. Personally I believe if you have suffered maybe you won't be indifferent when you see others suffering. If a person is immature, they can let their suffering make them angry and bitter. If however, you have the right attitude, suffering can cause you to grow as a person, and allow you to see the world and people around you differently. Maybe with a bit of compassion. I have found that times after I have "suffered" a friend goes through something similar, and I am there for him/her. I help them through it and they are grateful that I was there for them and could identify with them. If suffering brings me closer to my friends and helps me to be there for them in their time of need then I suffer gladly.
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karasutengu
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posted September 18, 2003 00:18
I used to be Roman Catholic--and haven't been excommunicated yet, so I guess I still am technically. I didn't stop believing in God, but did decide to stop limiting him/her/it/them (that's another debate entirely) through the limitations of my imagination or the limitations of church doctrine. Even as a kid I never believed in the church. That any human institution can claim knowledge and authority on a subject that is supposed to be infinitely beyond human comprehension was my first clue that they're full of it.
To get to the point: it doesn't matter whether or not I believe in God.
All that matters is the fact that I am alive right now and should make the most of it without worrying about gods or afterlifes.
If I spent my life trying to conform to a church idea of what constitutes a right and just life, I don't think I could bear the regret I would feel in my last moments. Once I realized several years ago that the only way to live a good life is through your own convictions and integrity, independent of the expections of others, I decided to live as though there is no God and use my mind instead to deal with and shape the realities of life.
Whether a god truly does or does not exist is unknowable in my opinion; as I pointed out earlier, I believe that it's beyond the physical limitations of our minds.
I'm sure that the ideas in my response have already been voiced; I just didn't want to take the time right now to read through all 4 pages of responses. It's great to see a thread like this that inspires such prolific and enduring debate.
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The Famous Druid
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posted September 18, 2003 01:55
quote:
Originally posted by kurasutengu:
I used to be Roman Catholic--and haven't been excommunicated yet, so I guess I still am technically.
Well, I've never been a Catholic, but I have been excommunicated, by the Pope himself, on the tram one Saturday morning, as I was heading off to the local produce market. His Holiness was travelling incognito, cleverly disguised as a mad old coot in bare feet, but he assured me that he's the Pope, and who am I to argue?
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spungo
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posted September 18, 2003 04:41
If there was a benevolent deity would he/she/it ever have allowed William Shatner to record Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? QED.
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The Famous Druid
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posted September 18, 2003 05:58
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
If there was a benevolent deity would he/she/it ever have allowed William Shatner to record Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? QED.
Good point, but you may just have proven the existence of Satan. ![[evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.
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GMx
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posted September 18, 2003 06:38
I'm sure that was recorded by the evil Shatner from the mirror universe.
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aberrantgeek
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posted September 18, 2003 06:53
I dont beleave that there is a god in the way that organized religions portray it. I cant beleave that there is some guy that is constantly watching over me and who actually finds my life more interesting than the life of a rock. Also it bothers me the almost constant contradictory statements that organized religions seem to make.
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karasutengu
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posted September 18, 2003 07:50
quote:
If there was a benevolent deity would he/she/it ever have allowed William Shatner to record Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds? QED.
Must...find...mp3 of LSD...sung by Shatner. I can't stop myself. The horror...the horror.
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spungo
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posted September 18, 2003 08:18
I didn't know it existed until George Clooney selected it as one of his companion songs on Desert Island Discs (BBC Radio 4 show). He said he needed something to encourage him off the island.
It is truly appalling.
On a similar note - it makes me think that there is a God - otherwise why would we have the musical marvel that is Rolf Harris's cover of Stairway to Heaven, complete with wobble-board. (A must-listen-to for all music fans. )
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Noldoaran
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posted September 18, 2003 09:43
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
At the subatomic level, it's not even really accurate to say that electrons have a position at all. They have a probability distribution which covers the entire universe; and that distribution "breaks down" into a single point if you observe the electon (particle). But if you do that, then you cannot know its velocity. Contrariwise, you could measure its velocity, but then you cannot be certain of its position. This is the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
Here's another one: the famous two-slit diffraction experiment. ...
By observing the system, you have changed the behavior of the particle. You want god? Explain that one. You'll have your answer.
Ahh! quantum Physics!!
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neotatsu
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posted September 18, 2003 14:08
People actually *believe* that still? Sorry, don't particularly mean to be rude, but I just find mormons really funny.. They work so hard, but I can't help but feel that, after taking so much in life, after they die, they're gonna have to bend over and take 'er up the rear again ![[devil wand]](graemlins/devilwand.gif) ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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The Famous Druid
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posted September 18, 2003 15:41
quote:
Originally posted by spungo:
On a similar note - it makes me think that there is a God - otherwise why would we have the musical marvel that is Rolf Harris's cover of Stairway to Heaven, complete with wobble-board. (A must-listen-to for all music fans. )
Ah yes, a classic.
I have the 'Stairways to Heaven' CD, which, as the name suggests, consists of nothing but different versions of Stairway To Heaven (from 'The Money Or The Gun' - an aussie comedy show of the 90s).
The Elvis version is very good, the B52s version (by a local 'tribute band') is so uncannily close to the actual B52s sound it's scary. Sadly, they left out the 'Pirate Sea Shanty' version, which was my personal fave, and today being 'Talk Like A Pirate Day' I'd have loved to play it.
Oh well, I'd best get back to swabbin' the decks and hoistin' the mains'l
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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.
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Just_Jess_B
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posted September 18, 2003 15:41
God exists for each individual in its own way.
God has many faces, many meanings, many histories.
God = Faith (in God existing), and if you don't have faith in God, then God doesn't exist. If you have faith in God, then no man will shake your faith from the truth that God exists.
If there was one true God, why would God deny so many people from God's existence for so long? The way I see it, the question of "Is there A God?" tends to be Eurocentric Christianity-based.
Jess
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addiew
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posted September 18, 2003 17:38
have you read up much on Kabblah? I think much of this is address there
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d3m057h3n35
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posted September 18, 2003 18:28
I couldn't resist posting on this topic. I'll begin with comments on the posts of others and then issue my opinion.
BlueLaser: The Big Bang cannot explain God's existence. Only God being invincible can.
This was one of the many examples of "reasoning" I saw (no offense). If God exists (an open question, I think), He does not need to be explained. No need to bring pseudo-logic into the picture.
GameMaster: BlueLasar, you talk of man like it is somehow above all other creates on this planet and in this universe.
A good point. It's surprising to realize how most philosophy and theology deals exclusively with man, which seems downright selfish to me.
CrawGator: Why do we humans permit suffering is what I want to know.
Either humans have free will and permit suffering (moral: humanity is essentially evil), or God controls their will and permits suffering himself (problem: many religions assert that humans have free will). Saying that God *permits* suffering is merely a rationalisation of the fact that we allow it to happen. If He let's it happen, then that should be good enough for us, right?
Kurasutengu: To get to the point: it doesn't matter whether or not I believe in God. All that matters is the fact that I am alive right now and should make the most of it without worrying about gods or afterlifes.
This is a simple, but beautiful argument. Very pragmatic. Philosophy and theology are good diversions from everyday life, and only that. Making your life's purpose determining your life's purpose is bound to be unsatisfying.
I also like the Arundhati Roy quote, it was very fresh.
Now my thoughts: If a god truly exists (in the normal sense of the word, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.), then His existence cannot be logically or experimentally proved or disproved. To do either is to be Him, to attempt is probably futile. The options: belief (without proof), disbelief (without proof), or basic neutrality on the issue (no proof necessary). I think belief (or disbelief) is completely irrational from a logical standpoint (make note: I do not place logic over belief! They are two equally important, but DISTINCT concepts). I respect believers, although I don't share those beliefs in any way. What irritates me, however, are those believers who believe their duty is to convert everyone, who substitute religion for science (a form of blasphemy in and of itself, if you think about it), and those who are arrogant enough to ignore the possibility that their faith is anything but the Truth they think it is. Do I think a god is necessary to provide the Universe with a purpose? I think our existence is purpose enough. If it makes you feel better to believe that someone up above created you and everything else, and hence has all the answers, please do so; I think any considerate, rational being understands that need perfectly. Just don't think that everyone has that need as much as you. And whatever you do, never cease to think, to mull over your experiences. Nothing in the mind should be etched in stone, if it is, you are then hurt by every thought that you will never have. Finally, never assume you know the truth. Perhaps it doesn't exist at all.
While we wait for answers, why don't we not worry about it to much, and just be decent, civil human beings?
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DoctorWho
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posted September 19, 2003 06:18
Ahh well, I guess I am irrational.
But I guess I keep good company since all these respected scientists must be irrational too.
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uilleann
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posted September 19, 2003 06:38
But such is the nature of the human mind.
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d3m057h3n35
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posted September 19, 2003 20:52
"Is it irrational to believe in a supreme being?"
Indeed, I believe it is. BUT, there's a disclaimer to that thought though: humans are extremely irrational in matters of love, art, war, etc. which are the things that make us human. Music is irrational, but I would be incomplete without it. I know irrational has a negative connotation to it. In reading my comments, substitute the objective definition instead. Then you will see what I mean (which, just like everything listed on the web page linked to above which contains the statements of countless respected scientists, is an opinion). Why does pure science reject the notion of a god? Because it is untestable, and just like some of those aforementioned scientists said, belongs in metaphysics and philosophy. I am not anti-God, but rather agnostic. We all seek answers, but in different ways.
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Noldoaran
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posted September 20, 2003 14:04
quote:
Originally posted by d3m057h3n35:
If God exists (an open question, I think), He does not need to be explained. No need to bring pseudo-logic into the picture.
I agree.
Kurasutengu: To get to the point: it doesn't matter whether or not I believe in God. All that matters is the fact that I am alive right now and should make the most of it without worrying about gods or afterlifes.
If your after life is eternal(ever-lasting) and your choices in this life affect your placement in the afterlife, as many religions believe, Isn't it critically important that you concern yourself with the life to come?
d3m057h3n35:Philosophy and theology are good diversions from everyday life, and only that.
Why?
d3m057h3n35: Making your life's purpose determining your life's purpose is bound to be unsatisfying.
huh?
d3m057h3n35:
Now my thoughts: If a god truly exists (in the normal sense of the word, omniscient, omnipresent, etc.), then His existence cannot be logically or experimentally proved or disproved. To do either is to be Him, to attempt is probably futile. The options: belief (without proof), disbelief (without proof), or basic neutrality on the issue (no proof necessary).
Good point.
d3m057h3n35: I think belief (or disbelief) is completely irrational from a logical standpoint (make note: I do not place logic over belief! They are two equally important, but DISTINCT concepts).
Must everything be logical?
d3m057h3n35: What irritates me, however, are those believers who believe their duty is to convert everyone,
If the believers believe they have the truth, is it notr their responcibility to share it with all who will listen?
who substitute religion for science (a form of blasphemy in and of itself, if you think about it),
Yes.
..and those who are arrogant enough to ignore the possibility that their faith is anything but the Truth they think it is. Do I think a god is necessary to provide the Universe with a purpose? I think our existence is purpose enough.
Then what is the purpose of our existence?
And whatever you do, never cease to think, to mull over your experiences. Nothing in the mind should be etched in stone, if it is, you are then hurt by every thought that you will never have.
I agree, don't follow blindly.
Finally, never assume you know the truth. Perhaps it doesn't exist at all.
Then, is every thing we believe and hold to be true incorrect? If so, what is truth?(what does 'truth' mean?)
While we wait for answers, why don't we not worry about it to much, and just be decent, civil human beings?
But if it may affect our eternal existance, isn't it critical that we find this truth?
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d3m057h3n35
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posted September 20, 2003 20:41
Noldoaran, you pose a question I cannot answer: if this affects your position in the afterlife in any way, is it not critical to examine it very thoroughly?
If my placement in any conceivable afterlife is affected by my beliefs, I do not then have freedom of belief in life, and, to a lesser extent, I do not have freedom of thought in general, that is, if I want to have an advantageous position in my afterlife. I am willing to risk everything after death by thinking what I wish in life. To not do so would be to subject myself to a hell of sorts before death (I think). This is one position that I've had for as long as I've thought about the matter.
Besides, if I'm damned to hell, at least I'll meet some interesting people there, don't you think?
It is a pleasure to discuss subject this with you.
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csk
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posted September 21, 2003 18:21
I know I've posted this in other threads, but it bears repeating (IMHO). Believing in God is not an irrational or rational decision. It's not something you can say test for, prove, or determine by experiment. I happen to believe in God, but I don't even pretend to presume I can prove He exists.
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