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Author Topic: Apple vs. PC
ArmyGeek
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Icon 5 posted June 24, 2003 15:33      Profile for ArmyGeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Ok I am a been a PC Guy for almost 20 years, But I have been thinking about adding a Mac to my home but don't really know to much about them because the last Apple computer I used was an Apple II. So my question is? Is it worth it to add one and network it with my PC at home?

AG

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted June 24, 2003 16:16            Edit/Delete Post 
What sort of things do you do with your computer(s), and are there any areas you are planning to move into in the future? What OS do you use on the PCs, btw? (If you use Windows, then getting Linux or *BSD might be another option to consider.)

Networking a Mac and a PC shouldn't be a problem, though.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted June 24, 2003 21:46      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
It's been a while since I've been at a mac (but I used to use them a lot at school due to the fact that I had a few classes in printing and Photographt and stuff)...

The ups and downs of OS's:

Linux\Unix\BSD
- Not user friendly to get started
- There are a lot of open source solutions in this genre.
- A lot of free software that runs on this type of OS.
- Stable... Few crashes than I've seen on Macs and Windows

Windows
- Easy for beginers to get started on
- Common, thus there are a lot of software titles out
- Buggy and prone to crash -- more so with vertian versions, but a lot less stable than the the other options

Mac
- Closed hardware and code.
- Earlier versions of OS didn't allow access to the comand line
- More stable than windows, less than a lot of unicies
- More user freindly than than Windows and most unicies

But, this is probablt what you already knew.... So it still really depends on what the computer is going to be used for, what types of communication you want to have over the network and what type of OS is running on the OS.

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-ct-
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Icon 13 posted June 24, 2003 22:49      Profile for -ct-   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:

Windows
...
- Buggy and prone to crash -- more so with vertian versions, but a lot less stable than the the other options

Mac
...
- More stable than windows,

....

bullshit [Mad]

yet another (l)user caught up in the mindset of the "mine is better than yours" attitude.


you mac and *nix greater-than-thou types are really starting to piss me off

/me stops rant b4 it starts

[devil wand]

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted June 24, 2003 23:46            Edit/Delete Post 
Depends what version of Mac OS... The general impression I get is that Mac OS Classic will run beautifully for days and then supernova, losing all your unsaved work. Home Windows (95-Me) will gradually deflate, getting slower and slower, but giving you chance to save everything and reboot.

Then again, Windows 2000 is pretty stable, as is Mac OS X (I don't know about XP - seems to depend on who you ask).

Really, though, it all depends on who you ask - I installed Debian on my Mac, and about it all it wanted to do was lock up. Gave up and got Yellow Dog Linux - installer locked up, and so did the OS afterwards. Apparently, the 2.x kernels detest my video chip - the 2.4 ones were better, but support was still flawed. Ask someone else, and it would have worked fine.

The complex combination of hardware + drivers + OS + software means that for different people, different OSes work in different ways, good or bad or random. Windows will run like a dream for one person, and give another a migraine; same for Mac OS. In my case, Linux was so awful it wasn't worth the grief for the extra stability. Other people love it.

But I was thinking more of the suitability side - what kind of applications you want to run, and which OS has the best ones for you.

On the other hand, maybe you're just looking for a change of experience, so yeah - Mac OS X is worth looking into. It's not to everyone's taste, so I'd be a little bit wary of purchasing a brand new Mac (they're not cheap ;) just for experience until you're sure it's worth it - visit an Apple Store first, or somewhere else where you can play, and have a go. Tho you could get a second-hand Mac instead - a good G3 or better.

Macs do have some nice software, after all :)

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Callipygous
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Icon 14 posted June 25, 2003 01:30      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't particularly like the title of this thread it should be Mac & PC. To that I say yes indeedy! Macs network up to PCs easily and share information well too. The only downside is the cost of the software for your Mac, but that can be spread over a period of time, and you get quite a nice bundle with the Mac and OS X that should keep you happy for quite a while. Macs and PCs each have their different strengths and weaknesses, so it would be good to have the choice. I have 2 Macs at home now, and I would like to add a PC sometime when my wallet is fuller.

One of those tasty new G5s. Yum yum. Go for it!

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-ct-
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Icon 4 posted June 25, 2003 01:43      Profile for -ct-   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
...I have 2 Macs at home now, and I would like to add a PC sometime when my wallet is fuller.

One of those tasty new G5s. Yum yum. Go for it!

when you're ready, talk to me - it's my job to sell/service/train/et al - PC's and macs, and any flavor unix

we got some really good deals [Wink]

www.fixmybug.com

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 04:15      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ArmyGeek - if you got the money, fine. Myself - I'm as tight as a gnat's chuff. Most of the hardware I procure is done so via the scrap heap at work (old Suns, etc). The only software I buy is £2 CDRs from The Linux Emporium, and that's when I'm feeling too fancy to download it onto CDs wot I nick from work... I'm actually thinking of attempting to build the world's most powerful free (as in beer) cluster... but I don't suppose I'll ever be arsed...

Anyway, the moral of the story is - you don't need to spend money to have a good time... just make sure you can run faster than her pimp! [Wink]

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rw

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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 06:35      Profile for rw   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Here's my take on your question, ArmyGeek. If you've used PCs for 20 years and now have the chance to try something new, go for it! If you bought another PC, it would just be the same old thing, and what fun is that?
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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 06:40      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Hey spungo, if they are chucking away some old suns down there again, can you snag me one? I'll pay postage and I'm sure I could work out some way to make it worth your while [Wink]
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shentzu
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Icon 2 posted June 25, 2003 07:35      Profile for shentzu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
i know, as a new member i ain't gonna get a lot of listen time for this, but.....

tafkact, get over it. they _are_ more stable.

i could tell you how i got my wife to use linux by telling her she could only reboot the dual boot when it crashed. w2k crashed enough she always used mandrake. i could tell you about the dozens of people i know who either have linux or os x or bsd _and_ windows, who are impressed by w2k's stabilty. so much so that they say it is "almost like linux!" i could tell you my brother has reinstalled XP more times than rebooted linux in the same time frame. i could tell you i was network admin at a school that......

but you won't listen.

there are many, very good, reasons to run windows. stability is none of them. grow up. get over it.

as to the real question....... if you just want to add a machine to your mix, and want a new OS to play with, you might look at the laptops. apple builds a very good laptop, and both the G3 ibook 12" and G4 12" make a good "new OS toy." if you get a used machine, get a good video card in it. quartz extreme is the difference between a pleasant OS X and a painfully slow OS X. and extreme needs a real video card. good luck!

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 07:43      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
ArmyGeek: It depends. Do you develop software or just use the computer? For development, I'll defer the answer - I'm too much a slave on my unix upbringing (and a three button mouse) to ever switch. For a computer to write, edit pictures and web surf with, get a Mac. I've always used windows for the family computer, but this winter I got an iMac. Within one day my kids and I were converts (My wife is a holdout, but I think that's mostly because she doesn't want to give up the completely aweful graphic arts program she uses on the PC).

I hate to sound cliched, but Macs just work. The defining example to me of this is the new user experience on a Mac vs. an XP machine. Buy one of each. Put a DVD in each. The Mac plays the movie. The PC (a Compaq) starts up three different movie players and each asks if you want to make it the default one. That's worse than freaking Linux, where you have to find the software on the net and build it yourself. On an out-of-the-box PC, you are given lots of choices, which might be a good thing, but no information about which helps to pick amoung them.

On the (consumer) software side, however, you have to come to grip with the fact that windows has all the easy to get software. There are about a third as many Mac titles as windows ones. Linux is a distant last. OTOH, nearly everything I wanted came with the Mac, and I don't play games, so I don't find this a problem.

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Titanium Warrior
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Icon 10 posted June 25, 2003 09:39      Profile for Titanium Warrior   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I like SGI's myself... but who can afford them.

I love the SGI Octane 2's myself. If I won the lotto, that's what I'd buy.

I used to sell SGI's but as other users pointed out, it really depends on your application. The logical progression for myself was always Macintosh because of the type of work I do.

People have criticized me for picking 'easy' to learn platforms, but bullocks I say. I trained and learned on an SGI's, dubners, quantel systems... some of the hardest computer workstations in the world to learn how to generate titles for TV screens. Most of these workstations were all UNIX or VAX/VMS based. Nothing easy about that. Now that Mac has gone BSD based, it gives me no reason to go back to SGI. The software and hardware is way cheaper on a Macintosh, and now with the G5 I'm getting workstation performance.

I use an analogy all the time. I hate to say one is better than the other, which others have pointed out varies from experience to experience. The analogy I use is on Wintel PCs is like car owners that buy cars that they can fix themselves. Macintosh are for car owners that are interested in going from point a to point b and not care about what is under the hood. Both work just as well as the other, just one serves the mechanical enthusists while the other serves functionality.

However that said, I use this analogy with people who are new to computers. OS X in this analogy doesn't really apply to people like yourself or others on this forum as it does allow tinkering under the hood. At the end of the day what's important to me is what gets the job done with as little grief as possible. Since I'm a graphic designer, the industry standard is Macintosh. So generally speaking I stick with that. It doesn't preclude the WinTel options, but I rather work with my vendors than against the grain.

Anyhow my two bytes worth.

TiW
[Smile]

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 11:30      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
bullshit [Mad]
No need to have a cow.

yet another (l)user caught up in the mindset of the "mine is better than yours" attitude.
Name calling is less mature than anything I did. All I said was that in my experience windows is less stable...

I run a computer with win 98SE, and a windows ME... The 98SE crashes for things that my linux box doesn't. ME crashes if I look at it wrong. Linux has not crashed on me once.


you mac and *nix greater-than-thou types are really starting to piss me off
I didn't say ANY was "better," in fact I listed the differences as I see it. I listed quite a few good points to Windows as well. I'm sorry your so emotionally involved in your OS that you have get worked up over my opinions.

/me stops rant b4 it starts
much appreciated.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 11:57      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
GM, ME just sucks. One day I will forgive my ex for putting that filth on my machine. In the meantime, I will lionize the housemate who gave me XP. [Smile] XP has it's issues, but it starts, which is more than ME reliably did....

I have crashed PCs. I have crashed Macs. I once crashed my ex's Linux box by looking at it (though dman tells me this is the fault of RedHat, not my evil eye). I have yet to crash Knoppix, but it hasn't been installed to my harddrive yet. Perhaps, once it has, it will be overcome by the shadow in Mirkwood...

/me backs away from the OS debate

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Drazgal
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 12:36      Profile for Drazgal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Windows relies on your hardware and how you set it up for stability. One friends pc barely worked with ME, one of my UNI lecturer swears by ME. Personaly I get almost zero crashes from the actual Windows 98 SE OS, although IE began to die constantly on me so I left it alone. Xp I wont touch, but some of my flat mates love it and its stability for them.

Moral of the story? Windows is a stable mature platform, though needs a bit of tinkering with sometimes to get working properly but hands up all who can honestly say Linux doesn't take a bit of effort to get to maximum performance (I also use Linux so Im making a fair comparision methinks).

Just with what you need.

Windows: Largest range of software and compatability.
Linux: Freedom and great fun to tinker and program
Mac: More attractiuve case [Smile] and great for ease of use.

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iCoach
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Icon 3 posted June 25, 2003 12:53      Profile for iCoach     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'll throw my hat into the ring...

I hate Windows.

That said, I am a total hypocrite. I use Win98 every day - literally, my office PC and my dominant home PC are both 98 machines.

Why? Because I am used to it, I have things I want to do (game, browse, listen to music) that I know how to do on Windows.

I have wanted to get into Linux, but making the switch is difficult when I known umpteen ways to do anything in Windows, and I struggle to get Linux to do anything.

I have worked with Linux a bit though. I do like how you can play with it. Heck I even set up the office firewall with RH. It does seem more stable than Windows. As for the "performance benefits" people say Linux has, I don't see it. Perhaps it is Window's design that makes the PC appear faster, but I don't care if my Linux boxen can serve files at X times the rate my Windows boxen can. I want my interface to be quick. Windows does that for me.

And that is why I hate Windows, but still use it.

As for the arguement about ME. I hate it - installing it was the worst PC mistake I have made. I ran it for about a year, then junked it for 98. Ran 2k Pro for a while (all on my home box) so far 98 has provided me with the best combination of performance, usability and stability yet.

Oh, and I have no intention of going to WinXP.

-Coach

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 14:36      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
iCoach's post is a graphic illustration of the reason why Apple's switch campaign will at best only have very limited results. The expertise you accumulate from long experience coupled with the time and money you have invested in current software creates an OS inertia that keeps nearly everyone on their own platform even if they dislike it, though in fact Macs and PCs work so similarly it really is not hard to get to grips with one if you know the other. Obviously it will probably take at least another six months or so to get the level of expertise iCoach enjoys with PCs, but if you are a little bit geeky that is half the fun.

Anyway iCoach if you get bored with hating Windows you know where to go for a walk in the sunshine.

The simple fact is Macs rule! [Big Grin]

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ArmyGeek
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 18:30      Profile for ArmyGeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Damn this is some excellent advice. I have been working in a Mixed NT/2000/Sun Solars/Win98 networks for the past 10 years here in the army. And have been able to crash every one at least 1 time. My home machine is a XP Home(just because it was more affordable then Pro)which is pretty stable most of the time. I have to say that the U.S. Goverment and Microsoft have some sort of Drug Deal going cause we are loaded with the darn things. I really want to expand my perview of computer experance. I really thank you all for your help and comments and please keep them coming

/stops bableing

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csk

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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 18:54      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I think that the different OSes generally have different target audiences. Of course, there are crossovers between them, but the following are my observations. I'm only considering the desktop.

Mac: generally preferred by people who want things to just work, without needing to know how it works. Particularly popular in the creative industries where they want to focus on the content rather than the method of creating it. Being largely controlled by one company results in a slick, integrated product.

Windows: the dominant force, particularly in business and games. Almost irreplacable when trying to run certain games, or use certain hardware that isn't supported under anything else. Can be less stable, particularly in the 95/98/ME series, but sometimes due to hardware problems (eg bad RAM). Comparatively expensive unless bundled with hardware. Extremely wide range of software that runs on it.

Linux: the underdog on the desktop, but particularly popular with Unix power users, and people who like to "fiddle" with their machine. The financial savings of running it are balanced against extra time spent tweaking things. The total range of software is probably not equal to Windows, but a large proportion of the software available for it is free (beer and speech).

As for me, I run both Linux and Windows. Unless there is some major miracle in Linux compatiblity with Windows software, I can't dump Windows, much as I'd like to (it's easier to maintain one OS than two).

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MistecMcetsiM
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Icon 1 posted June 25, 2003 21:49      Profile for MistecMcetsiM     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I used to think that Mac sucked and Windows ruled, but now that I see so many people have found reasons to love the colorful, plastic, apple-donned G-x's, I'm thinking maybe I'm not considering some of the benefits Mac has to offer. As far as what OS is best for a particular person, it depends on what you're going to do. Two of my friends are design majors and use many Adobe products on their machines (i.e. Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.) and are actually required to be skilled in these specific programs. It's my understanding also that Quicktime is a firstly Mac-related type of video format and that it was ported over to Windows but originated in Mac. So, as far as editing images and video, I believe that Mac is far superior as its major provider of software Adobe is the industry standard. I couldn't be of help with any further information, though.

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imjeffp
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Icon 4 posted June 27, 2003 14:05      Profile for imjeffp         Edit/Delete Post 
> Mac
- Closed hardware and code.

Ummm... no.

The only "closed" hardware on the Mac is in the ROMs. AGP cards? PCI cards/ PCMIA cards? USB? Routers? WiFi? All the same stuff. As far as closed code, have you heard of "Darwin?" I'd venture to say OS X is more open than any flavor of Windows.

- Earlier versions of OS didn't allow access to the comand line

That's kind of like saying earlier versions of DOS didn't have a GUI.

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Shapeshifter
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Icon 1 posted June 27, 2003 18:05      Profile for Shapeshifter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by tafkact:
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:

Windows
...
- Buggy and prone to crash -- more so with vertian versions, but a lot less stable than the the other options

Mac
...
- More stable than windows,

....

bullshit [Mad]

yet another (l)user caught up in the mindset of the "mine is better than yours" attitude.


you mac and *nix greater-than-thou types are really starting to piss me off

/me stops rant b4 it starts

[devil wand]

Ummm, actually that looks like a rant stopped a few lines after it started. I have two PCs right now, a decent Compaq running Windows 98SE and the old box we used to run Win95 on, which now is running Mandrake Linux 9.0. I use the Windows box everyday. I check my mail on it. I surf the web on it. I game on it. I do my homework on it. I do these things on the Windows machine simply because that's the way I've always done them. Essentially, I *could* do all of them on Linux, and I *intend* to do all of them and more on Linux, but right now it would simply be too much work to set up Mandrake so I could do so. Between the time spent having to learn how to do stuff and the time spent getting the necessary applications running, I wouldn't get anything actually acomplished. So instead I'm treating Linux as more of a hobby at the moment, and when I learn something new (IRC, programming) I give it a go on both systems. And you know what? Linux IS more stable. Period. Linux gives the user (well, at least the root user) more power. Learning to program on Linux is like learning to read in a library. But Windows easily dominates the gaming market. Windows is easier to learn, and also a hell of a lot prettier (or maybe the version of X I have on Mandrake just sucks). Windows has a lot more corporate software available; however, Windows has little free (as in beer) software and costs MUCH more than Linux. Quite frankly, I got more software for the $40 USD I spent on Mandrake than I could have bought for Windows with well over $400. Best part? No talking paperclips! As uilleann demonstated, Linux requires a certain amount of applied intelligence (in other words, you have to throw all of your mental resources at it before you can get it to do anything; in my case it was a three day battle with Mandrake because it didn't like my video card) and considerable patience.

In a perfect world I'd like a suped-up ubercomp running Windows strictly for games and programs that won't run on anything else, a Mac for day-to-day usage, and something running a favorite distribution of *nix for the really geeky things and tinkering.

That said, you need to use at least two different operating systems (no, NT and ME do not count as different) before you have any business flaming other people for pointing out that the average (there are exceptions to every rule. In this case they occur very rarely) Mac or Linux PC is more stable than the average Windows PC. Notice how I don't go around flaming Macs because I've never used a Mac for more than an hour at the time, and those particular machines are probably over a decade old now.

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Posts: 152 | From: Virginia, USA | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
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Icon 14 posted June 27, 2003 23:39      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Shapeshifter as I believe others have pointed out, you could save some deskspace in your ideal setup as the "Mac for day-to-day usage, and something running a favorite distribution of *nix for the really geeky things and tinkering" can be the same machine now, unless you dislike the Free BSD flavour of Unix.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Drazgal
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Icon 1 posted June 28, 2003 04:26      Profile for Drazgal   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Shapeshifter:
But Windows easily dominates the gaming market.

Im working on that, just give me 3 more years.....
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