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Author Topic: Long live chivalry
dragonman97

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Icon 3 posted April 15, 2003 21:27      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
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Fsck ultra-feminism, long live chivalry*

Important disclaimer: In no way do I believe that any 'rights' be denied to woman, and I think that every person (male & female) deserves the rights that we have *all* fought/strived for, most particularly those of freedom of speech, the right to vote, the pursuit of happiness, and all those grand things. I take this to be something of a given, though some may not.

With that said, I shall state that my point is that what I oppose is the extreme individualistic styles held by some that say, "What, he wants to open the door for me - I can open my own damn door...I'm not a feeble/frail girl." I say that chivalry/being a gentleman is not a bad thing, and should be more acceptable. More so, more men need to follow these practices, as I think that it is a good thing to show an increase respect to women. It shouldn't be deemed degrading to do nice things for someone...is there something so terrible about elevating the worth you hold for a woman?

Today, I witnessed the fruits of what I discuss - doing a simple thing greatly improved my appearance in someone's eyes. Tonight, as I was walking someone back to my car after going out for coffee, I unlocked the passenger's door, and *opened* it. While I can tell she is something of independent person, it doesn't mean she didn't like it. After I got in, she said "Hmm, you didn't have to open the door, that was very nice of you. You didn't have to do that," followed by ~'opening a door for a lady is ...[a nice thing].' (my memory fails me here) I replied saying that that's kind of how I am, and she said something about it being the the act/manner of a gentleman. Pleasant unrelated conversation ensued, and when I dropped her off at the train station, so she could go home, rather than just saying goodbye and leaving (as is more common with us of late), she leaned over and kissed me goodbye (on the cheek). This is a *good thing.*

I also will open a door for random strangers as well, and more so for the ladies, usually receiving a pleasant response. So, guys, my advice to you is that you follow a model of doing a random act of kindness/courtesy - it can pay off -- if not directly, you might just find yourself dating that person's friend, and she will have a good thing to remember about you. In any event, it's all good karma. And ladies, perhaps the double-standard can be slightly broken - a nice act for a guy (not *that* kind, Z, spungo, snupy [Wink] ) is not a bad idea either, from the general kindness to all point of view. However, if push comes to shove, I think the guy should be allowed to honor the girl more with chivalry.

[*] And in something of a Freudian slip, this actually read '...love live chivalry' - to which uilleann scratched his head and said, 'You mean "long live?"

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted April 15, 2003 21:50            Edit/Delete Post 
Hmm... on the other hand, I'm a guy, and I'd rather do things myself, and let others do the same - perhaps a byproduct of not yet being independent? Inside my head, it's a mess - too much conflict, but to quite an extent, I like the idea of asking for something, instead of having it offered - saves everyone wasting time and effort trying to guess what everyone around them might want and need. It also means that I don't have to feel guilty for not doing what others do. (Something that bothers me is if I am talking to someone in IRC, and someone else appears and starts doing all the "how are you" stuff - on the one hand, it looks all friendly and considerate, and I feel bad for being entirely subject-oriented and not being friendly, but on the other hand, I dislike asking people how they are and I also particularly dislike being asked - friendly small talk is a complete irritation and a nuisance to me. Yet, if I watch others engaged in their happiness, I feel bad for not doing it. It's a cyle of no-win.)

Of course, having people offer things is nice, but it can make me feel guilty instead - I tend to prefer to be alone if I can. Perhaps once I really am independent, it will stop bothering me.

W.r.t doors - I will hold a door open to the person behind me, or to an approaching person with a distance threshold, for their convenience, and I don't mind receiving the same - that is actually useful, whereas actually unnecessary chivalry gets on my nerves.

Hm...

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Jessycat

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Icon 14 posted April 15, 2003 22:34      Profile for Jessycat     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I've actually done a lot of thinking over the years about the whole "chivalry" thing. I sometimes have had a problem with it, but I've never been sure exactly why.
Just to be clear on what we're talking about, I looked up the term, and among other words, the definition (dictionary.com) mentions courtesy, honor, and gallantry.
I certainly have no problem with courtesy and honor; these are applicable in the treatment of both women and men.
Gallantry, on the other hand is tricky. If gallantry is overdone, it can appear condescending or even mocking. This makes me *insane*. If he's going to open the door for me, that's great! I sincerely appreciate it. If he's going to do it with a big flourish and expect me to blush and curtsy each and every time, I may oblige, (if it's cute and funny), or I may not (if it reads as obnoxious.) And, if I get there first, I'll probably open the door for him. Not to make a point, but it's less awkward than standing there and waiting for him to do it. [Smile]
As for paying on a date or in a relationship in general, I'm more than happy to pay my own way (or for both of us, for that matter) but I've learned over the years that if a man wants to pay, I should graciously accept. It's not worth making a scene over it and insulting him to boot, and it is flattering if, once again, the gesture comes from a place of courtesy and honor. I went out for drinks with a Local 1 stagehand once, and he wanted to pay the entire tab. He expressed himself very well, I thought. He said "I know you're capable of paying your own way, but I also know how much less you guys [the wardrobe crew] make than we do, and it's not fair, so just let me get the drinks, ok?" And I was like "Fabulous!!!" Of course, I want to be courteous and honorable as well, so I just have to make it up at birthday or Christmas-time. [Big Grin]

Oh, and dragonman: I believe I know you well enough by now to be able to say with confidence that I think your chivalry is genuine, and I think you should keep doing what you're doing!!! Sounds like it's starting to pay off a little bit! [Smile]

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 15, 2003 23:05      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I don't think that it is a mater of the sex of a person. If I were female, I would still be as insistant about getting the door whenever I reach it first. I do this with all my friends (regarless of their sex -- Sometime doesn't matter if the person behind me is even someone I know, if I'm in a good mood, I'll hold the door a large group that happens to be entering the same time as me (esp at the rep, because the people are most likely patrons or people in other departments))... As for the money issue, the general rule I've always believed in was "The one who asks pays." However, I'm knowen for stealing the check even if it is George Web's cheap food at 3 in the morning with an old friend... Here again the issue isn't the sex of the person I'm dinning with, it is the fact that I don't drive and am hard to get ahold of, which means that any/all contact requires more effort and resources on my friends side, so I feel that picking up the bill is the least I can do.

Just my 2.0*10^-2 USD.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2003 02:15      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
If you can brighten someones day by a simple act of kindness/courtesy, why not?

Ok, so occasionally you'll encounter someone who takes offense, but in the last 20 or so years, it's happened to me exactly twice.

That's a risk I'm willing to take.

On the positive side, some years ago, the flowers in my garden were blooming in vast numbers, so I cut a few bunches, popped them in empty soft-drink bottles, and put them on the desks of my female workmates. I figured no-one would take it the wrong way because
1. they all knew I was engaged to be married in a few months
2. I did it for all of them, not just a favoured one or two.

It went down really well, and they were being nice to me months later [Smile]

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Icon 3 posted April 16, 2003 05:02      Profile for The Chump   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
My wife and I went out the other day when I was having a bad day and when the check came, I had her grab the debit card and pay the bill. She said something about it being rude to make her pay. But I guess my feeling is I'm the only one that works, so in essence aren't I still picking up the bill? Women drive me crazy.
I also try to open her door for her because I enjoy doing it, but there are times when she'll get out on her own before I can even get to her door and then she'll say something about how I won't open the door for her so the next time I reached across and opened the door from the driver's side.
Sometimes being "the gentleman" is just a screwed-if-you-do, screwed-if-you-don't situation.

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Icon 12 posted April 16, 2003 05:53      Profile for Spycom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Heh, the whole chivalry thing was taught to me by my mom from a very young age, and it became instinctual. As I got older I started thinking about it's origins, then I found out that it's quite similiar to Bushido, a code of honor so to speak for warriors... samurai in Japan, knights in Europe... then I started thinking about around the times that this European concept came about and came to this conclusion... chivalry was a means of protection...
Open the door for a lady and let her enter the room before you... [that way if anyone's waiting to jump me they'll get her first]
Stand whenever a lady enters or leaves a room... [it's pretty hard to defend against an attack when you're sitting]
and so on...

Now I'm not saying that doing nice and polite things for others shouldn't be done... but I like bringing a silly smile to my face thinking about why the original knights may have been doing it.

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evilbibo
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2003 07:44            Edit/Delete Post 
I always hold the door open for people (women and men) at places like malls, restaraunts, etc..

Unless of course they are too far away, then I just continue walking in the door [Wink]

I usually open the car door too, instead of getting in and unlocking it for them.

And even though we're married we have seperate bank accounts and there are times my wife insists on paying for dinner, it's kinda nice. She's also the 1st woman to ever send me flowers, if fact I think she's sent ME more flowers than I've sent to her ( I usually bring them home myself)

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Icon 14 posted April 16, 2003 09:02      Profile for Titanium Warrior   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Coming from a club where Chivalry isn't dead, my perspective is that Chivalry is more than just about opening doors and being polite. Jessycat brings up some really good points about courtesy, honor and gallantry. Gallantry perhaps is something that has changed over the years.

When the term 'Chivalry isn't dead' or 'is dead' comes around, I generally cringe at the thought of that statement.

To me chivalry is related to virtues of knighthood. Different orders have different tenets to live by, but generally they are all very similar:
Valor, Humility, Discernment, Faith, Compassion, Fidelity, Passion, Strength, Discipline, Self-Reliance, Hospitality, Courage, Courtesy, Franchise, Generous, Honor, Justice, Largesse, Liberality, & Loyalty

I won't go into defining all of them. I could write a book on chivalry just on these virtues.

As a person outside of my club, I carry forth these virtues in my heart. Many of these reflect in one of my recent post: #78 http://www.geekculture.com/ultimatebb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000335

Chivalry isn't gender specific and shouldn't be nor should it be specific to strength. It is a series of virtues that reflect a philosophy in life. For example, taking pride in contributing to Habitat for Humanity could be misconstrued as helping someone who is weaker and unable to provide for themselves. Well that would be incorrect. More appropriately it is about extending courtesy to those that welcome your support to them. If you are full of pride then you've done a great disservice to chivalry.

To me, chivalry isn't dead. Whether or not someone open doors, helps misfortunate people, picks up the tab, leaves the last appetizer for other. etc... it is everywhere in our society and it's good to see you extend that truth dragonman.

TiW

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2003 10:17      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
TiW, you are quite correct - I'm not saying these things (like opening doors, etc.), are the core of chivalry, but rather that they are just convenient outward examples. I don't usually take it to such a specific degree, but it was mainly the fact that one such simple part of it became exemplfied so clearly last night, that I thought I would dwell on it a bit [Smile] .

Spycom - cool info. I am a little familiar with the ideas of Bushido, from when I studied Japanese religions last year, but some of the European chivalry stuff is new to me. I knew it dated back to knights and such - but the reasons you gave are fascinating, and make perfect sense in hindsight.

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Spycom
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2003 12:46      Profile for Spycom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Spycom - cool info. I am a little familiar with the ideas of Bushido, from when I studied Japanese religions last year, but some of the European chivalry stuff is new to me. I knew it dated back to knights and such - but the reasons you gave are fascinating, and make perfect sense in hindsight.

I too am only vaguely familar with the concepts of Bushido and chivalry... I know they're both religious and that they were more or less also a code of conduct for soldiers... them military types tend to get out of hand sometimes ;-) But especially back then when religion meant something, trying to achieve the state of holiness or trying to become "the ideal man" was something that everyone wanted.

It's pretty sad though, if you think about it, when normally polite people are complimented on their natural actions... it just goes to show you that we live in a rude world.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2003 17:36      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Chivalry makes me blink. Everytime. Maybe it's the people I hang out with, the fact I'm a tomboy, or something else, but I don't encounter it often. I don't care too much. It's nice, I appreciate it, but I don't expect it. As long as the guy shows respect for me aand others, and compassion for the world in general, he's got all the points he needs in my book. My parents (and my mom especially) have a serious hang-up where chivalry is concerned. So when it was time for my bf to meet my parents, I gave him fair warning.

My main concern is when guys seem to think I owe them something in exhange for the chivalry. As in, I bought you dinner, now you have to let me in your pants. Or something similar. Tell me, what's the difference between that kind of chivalry and a hooker?

My point, before this thread goes up in flames: chivalry that has no strings attached, and comes from a genuinely good heart, is wonderful and rare and I appreciate it. Chivalry used as a pick-up line annoys the fsck out of me.

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dragonman97

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Icon 2 posted April 16, 2003 17:54      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
Yes, Xanthine, you're right - such guys definitely exist. I do not like such people, they make the rest of us look bad. I say it's just a good thing in general practice, and has been known to be appreciated. But using courtesy for one's own goals is not courtesy, it is more of a form of acting or something.

Spycom - what is the term again - myabi or something like that - the trait of an honorable person who is a gentleman. One thing that I remember reasonably well is the Tale of Genshin - that was an interesting story.

P.S. Well, if things never quite develop between *her* and I, I shall still be able to enjoy these beautiful anti-aliased fonts. I'm sorry, I guess I just have a thing for them - my Linux laptop just looks *so good.*

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted April 16, 2003 19:24            Edit/Delete Post 
Ah...anti-aliasing. Sometimes I encounter a PC with it turned off (M$'s default setting... go figure) and I tend to think, "ew" - I definitely like it on. Course, in 9.1, I get lovely pixel-aligned AA, which X won't offer (were you in X, X11, or Windows at the time?) Actually, Win32 AA is actually clearer than X's - I wonder if that pixel aligns? Never thought to check. It also won't AA small system fonts where it would ruin legibility, same as 9.1 does.

w.r.t the thread - hm... the stuff to read if you want to feel worthless... not good for the soul. AA is much more fun a topic (esp. when you draw it pixel at a time by hand - that is fun...) than the rest of what is here (save for X's thread, and maybe a few above - I skipped those). Unh.

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Spycom
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Icon 1 posted April 18, 2003 06:28      Profile for Spycom   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
Spycom - what is the term again - myabi or something like that - the trait of an honorable person who is a gentleman. One thing that I remember reasonably well is the Tale of Genshin - that was an interesting story.

Well it it could be myabi... which could be referred to as a connection of all the senses and elements. Or there's also miyabi... which in a way could be called "gentleman" or "nobel"... but I think you're on the right track because it just sounds too familar.

Tale of Genshin? Never read it. I've scanned through the Ojoyoshu, which I think was written by a guy named Genshin... maybe it's the same one.

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weensicka
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 21:44      Profile for weensicka   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dragonman97:
One thing that I remember reasonably well is the Tale of Genshin - that was an interesting story.

Do you mean the Tale of Genji--10th century Japanese epic by Lady Murasaki?
If not, what's the other about? Sounds like it's right up my world lit. alley. [Smile]

As for chivalry, I kind of agree with Xanthine about some guys acting chivalrous and expecting things in return. This of course isn't real chivalry, but creepy none-the-less, so maybe that's why we women tend to be suspicious of "nice" guys. I love chivalry (real chivalry) when I encounter it, but it is unexpected. For instance, on a subway one day, during rush hour, a hugely pregnant woman got on the train and *no one* offered her a seat. Not a one, and most of the people sitting were middle-aged businessmen reading the Wall St. Journal. I was standing as well, but after a few stops, a seat opened up and I actually had to fend off a couple of businessmen to procure the seat for her. This isn't even an issue of chivarly; it's just being polite. I would have done the same thing for an elderly or handicapped person.

And for the record, I'd like to say that I am a feminist for what that's worth and I have no problem with men behaving like gentlemen. The radical fringes of the feminist movement seem to have given women's rights a bad name and I'd just like to point out that we're not all insane like Mary Daly. [Wink]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2003 22:07      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by weensicka:

Do you mean the Tale of Genji--10th century Japanese epic by Lady Murasaki?
If not, what's the other about? Sounds like it's right up my world lit. alley. [Smile]

That's *exactly* what I meant! [Smile] Thanks, weensicka (also for resurrecting my thread [Beard of Peter Gabriel!] ).

I'm not that up on Japanese Lit., but that one stood out in my mind.

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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 02:30      Profile for Sinn     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I'm polite by nature, and I find it very disconcerting when I get thanked (profusely) for opening a door, or anything like that. I do it out of reflex more than a conscious thought. And as was stated above, it's just a sign of the state of the world when common courtesy is praised as "out of the norm" behavior.

Women: How often do you encounter men who open doors, pull out seats, etc? Is it that rare a thing?

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Icon 7 posted May 01, 2003 05:51      Profile for WinterSolstice     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
I have to agree to that point.

I frequently open the door for random people, co-workers, people with boxes, etc. I don't consider this to be chivalry, just politeness. I think all I am expecting in return is for someone to get my door next time I have a big box or something.

With my wife, I try to make a point of being very polite, but the circumstances of daily life sometimes make that difficult. She seems to greatly appreciate it when I make the effort, and seems to not be annoyed if it doesn't happen.

A true gem [Smile]


I think that chivalry is dead. Dead, gone, buried, and good riddance. I just think that the best parts were re-integrated into proper manners, and the rest was left behind with the feudal garbage. I do think Americans have terrible manners with respect to women, but I have gotten so much flak that I understand it. Some women seem to be militantly opposed to manners. These are not ladies. They are women.

I try to go out of my way to be polite for a lady. The rest will just have to put up with my manners.

Sorry for the long post [Smile]

-WS

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uilleann
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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 07:46            Edit/Delete Post 
Finding the boundary between 'girl' and {woman, lady} is bad enough, but then you have the distinction between 'woman' and 'lady'. And I see someone has a view on this, albeit a curious one.

Personally, I won't use 'lady' as I reserve the word for the title, as well as the fact that the connotations of the word to me in general don't go down well (too much upper-classness, and too much courtesy and chivalry - a sort of goody-goody view on the world that I can't bear). Nor do I use anything as archaic as 'gentleman' either.

unh. enough rambling.

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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 08:38      Profile for BellaDonna     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by WinterSolstice:

Some women seem to be militantly opposed to manners. These are not ladies. They are women.

I consider myself to be a lady and a woman. I don't expect men to open doors for me, but I appreciate it when they do. In return if I'm the one who's gotten to the door first I'll hold it open for those following me. I feel a little uncomfortable with the whole seat pushing in deal, and unless your newly dating someone the car door thing gets to be an annoyance (esp since they're all automated these days). I also find it amusing when in an elevator full of men stand around till I get out, but it too is appreciated (though I also wonder if its at the benefit of getting a look at my backside).

I'm willing to bet that most of the "women" you're referring to are radical feminists. I'm with weensicka on the whole idea that some radical feminists have given the woman's movement a bad name. Now-a-days I don't think you can label a species of the female gender as lady or woman. There's a whole gray area that includes those of us who don't expect the civarly, but appreciate it nonetheless.

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evilbibo
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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 09:20            Edit/Delete Post 
That would be more of a cultural difference with the whole "lord" and "lady" thing.

When I think of "lady" I either get Tom Jones "she's a lady" stuck in my head or Jerry Lewis screaming "hey lady". But I have never addressed anyone as Lady or Lord in my life, we just don't really have those titles in the US.

Sorta like the difference between a rubber and eraser

or Fag and cigarette.


quote:
Originally posted by uilleann:
Finding the boundary between 'girl' and {woman, lady} is bad enough, but then you have the distinction between 'woman' and 'lady'. And I see someone has a view on this, albeit a curious one.

Personally, I won't use 'lady' as I reserve the word for the title, as well as the fact that the connotations of the word to me in general don't go down well (too much upper-classness, and too much courtesy and chivalry - a sort of goody-goody view on the world that I can't bear). Nor do I use anything as archaic as 'gentleman' either.

unh. enough rambling.


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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 09:56      Profile for weensicka   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
quote:
Originally posted by Sinn:
I'm polite by nature, and I find it very disconcerting when I get thanked (profusely) for opening a door, or anything like that. I do it out of reflex more than a conscious thought. And as was stated above, it's just a sign of the state of the world when common courtesy is praised as "out of the norm" behavior.

Women: How often do you encounter men who open doors, pull out seats, etc? Is it that rare a thing?

I think the frequency of the behavior might also have a lot to do with where you come from. I was visiting a friend in Texas and he kept opening the door and stuff, which really confused me. We don't do that a lot in the Northeast, nor particularly in cities like Boston and NYC where I spend a lot of time. I wouldn't say we are rude; we don't think of it.

I will usually hold doors and such for people, especially if they have boxes, baby carriages, etc. just because. The thing that irks me is that a lot of times I don't even get a thank you.

On dates, most of the guys I've gone out with will hold doors, occasionally pull out seats etc., but I don't think I've ever *once* had a guy open the passenger door for me. I would really like that. Have you ever tried to crawl out of a car in 6" heels and a tight skirt while fiddling with the door and not hitting it on the curb, car next to you, etc.? It's not easy. [Razz]

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Is there any tea on this spaceship?

Posts: 182 | From: oh, just somewhere random | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
weensicka
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Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 10:05      Profile for weensicka   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by WinterSolstice:
I do think Americans have terrible manners with respect to women, but I have gotten so much flak that I understand it. Some women seem to be militantly opposed to manners. These are not ladies. They are women.

I fail to see how "woman" or "lady" should be a distinction, unless, as uilleann suggests, it's an indication of title. Those women without manners are just *people* without manners. Men lack manners as well and I don't hear a lot of discussion of "lords" vs "men," etc.

The thing about chivalry is, it has a lot to do with motive. Before women's "liberation" or whatever you want to call it, men honestly believed that women were helpless and inferior, and needed to be treated with delicacy and grace. The idea of putting women up on a pedestal seems all nice and wonderful, but have you thought about what it's like being up there?

Women are just people and men are just people. It's as simple as that. And we should all just be nice to each other.

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Is there any tea on this spaceship?

Posts: 182 | From: oh, just somewhere random | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
uilleann
Discontinued


Icon 1 posted May 01, 2003 11:27            Edit/Delete Post 
evilbibo:
Well, the word is used more to mean female adult here than anything, although of course it can only mean that in the US. But it still doesn't take away, for me, it's connotations.

As far as the male sex goes, I've adopted the word 'guy' to refer to most of the sex as a whole (excluding young boys and below) - just a preference.

Quoting weensicka:
...in 6" heels and a tight skirt while fiddling with the door and not hitting... [the] car next to you, etc.?
As far as clothes go, that's one reason for disliking convoluted female attire, in that it's so damned impractical. However, I hear you about car doors - it is a pain trying to envisage the door thickness, door spring strength, and work in a 3D environment (remember that computer geeks don't do 3D ;-) and open one of the silly things without impacting the door into the next car too heavily...

Women are just people and men are just people. It's as simple as that. And we should all just be nice to each other.
Wrestling with that idea (claims vs reality, and hopes vs actual observations, etc) f*cks with my head. I have too little experience with human interaction outside of AIM to really have a clue what it's all about, I guess, and even in the human world, I don't tend to get involved with people much at all.

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