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Author Topic: Grammar Nazis
Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 12:31      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This post was originally written as a reply for another thread, but I felt it appropriate to move it here.


As much as many of you may find grammar use (or lack thereof) irritating, I'm rather sick of your antics. To encourage someone in the proper use of English is one thing, but to dismiss them for a lack of skill in this area is childish.

Given a little time, it should be fairly simple to discern between an illiterate troll and someone who might be interested in contributing here, but has difficulty in doing so properly. Please keep this in mind instead of going all grammar-nazi on newbs.

Maybe it wouldn't piss me off so much if I didn't personally know several very intelligent people who have difficulty spelling or forming readable sentences. For some people, these things do not come naturally.

I too, find it irritating, and believe that there are definitely cases where more effort on the part of the poster would be in order. Since text is the very base of our communication here, it is keenly felt when someone having these difficulties posts here, but please, have some consideration.

One wonders why geeks are often looked at as elitest snobs. [shake head]

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 12:54      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know if it was in response to my argument to the blonde_bimbo or whatever her name was, but I stand by my assault on her. She claimed she was obtaining BA in English and that she could likely outsmart most of us, despite not being able to discern 'to' from 'too'.
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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:01      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by drunkennewfiemidget:
I don't know if it was in response to my argument to the blonde_bimbo or whatever her name was, but I stand by my assault on her. She claimed she was obtaining BA in English and that she could likely outsmart most of us, despite not being able to discern 'to' from 'too'.

No, this was not directed at that in any way.

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Math problems? Call 1-800-[(10x)(13i)^2]-[sin(xy)/2.362x]

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Stereo

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:08      Profile for Stereo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You know, Spidey, I'm all there with you... WHEN the newbs don't have English as first language, or have some sort of disability. You can usually spot these ones right away as they are trying to convey a sound idea. I even find there was some improvement over time on that point, as serious would-be members usually get no worse than a gentle reminder. Those who have been picked on lately have been for a reason. They _were_ trolls.

As for the latest case, every clues I gathered point to a simple lack of care.

Or maybe I've been on a short fuse these past few days. [blush] (To my defence, I've encountered a bad case of close-mindedness at work, and I'm not yet over it. [Mad] )

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:18      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
[QB] You can usually spot these ones right away as they are trying to convey a sound idea. /QB]

Agreed. Have there been more trolls around lately than usual, or am I imagining things?

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alfrin
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:29      Profile for alfrin     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by magefile:
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
[QB] You can usually spot these ones right away as they are trying to convey a sound idea. /QB]

Agreed. Have there been more trolls around lately than usual, or am I imagining things?
No, you are right. I imagine lately GeekCulture is getting a little more well known and is getting found via google searchs a lot more often for a wider variety of searches. It's been in the last two months too, I remember I came around April last year and I never remember seeing any trolls at all. I remember being very impressed how great the noise to content and meaninful discussions ratio was. Anyone thing there is a solution to our growing problem? Because as seen before ignoring them has not made them go away.

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:33      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiderman:
One wonders why geeks are often looked at as elitest snobs. [shake head]

What's wrong with being an elitist snob? [Big Grin]
As for trolls, we've always had them. Rember the days of a certain cancer patient? [Mad]

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Novahawk
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:42      Profile for Novahawk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
While I try to use the best possible grammar and proper spelling I don't piss on people's parade when they type and don't use the best grammar.

Sometimes though I get irritated when people use the worst English you can possibly get away with while still being understood (barely).

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 13:52      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Grammar and spelling... I'm not one to talk, as I'm lazy as sin, and don't run spell check as often as I should. Anyone who wish to flame me over it can, I care not.

On trolls... I think it's cyclic. Moreover, I think that we get continued trolls by feeding them. If you flame them, and they flame, and a flame war starts... They got the attention they were seeking.

In the case of bambi, I've only read and replied to one of the threads. I see her as someone who is looking for advice on one issue; and once she has an answer she likes, she'll either start posting to other threads and become a better member, or she'll leave and we'll move on. If she starts posting with some regularity, Her lack of capitalization bothers even me, and the over use of net-ism acronyms like "LOL" won't get her a lot of respect from the crowd arround here.

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 14:10      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I take on board the points about people who do not have English as a first language, or those with learning difficulties related to use of words, and I believe that we should take these things into account wherever appropriate.

But..(there's always a 'but', isn't there [Wink] ) if person 'A' wants to join group 'B', is is not reasonable for group 'B' to expect person 'A' to try to conform to the established standards of that group's behaviour?

I would suggest that this idea isn't just limited to the GC forum: for example, what about a 'widowed' lioness trying to join a new pride, or a politician 'defecting' to another political party...

It's just a case of 'house rules'- if you don't like them, you have the option of staying outside.

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Spiderman

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 15:25      Profile for Spiderman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
As the recent "episode" progressed, it became pretty obvious what the case was. What concerns me, is the jump-down-your-throat unfriendly atmosphere that has developed.

In the most recent instance, it would have become just as obvious one way or the other, grammar flaming or no grammar flaming.

As satisfying as bringing public humiliation on someone may be, it's far from constructive, and is likely to scare away possibly legitimate users.

Again, my rant wasn't directed at that thread specifically, I'm just finally getting around to writing something I've intended to address for quite some time.

I'm remembering why I joined here 3.5 years ago. The atmosphere was inviting, and this place was honestly very different than most other forums on the net, or god forbid, usenet.

I understand that the climate has changed as there is an influx of new users due to increased site popularity, etc. but I feel this is all the more reason to tone things down.

I respect the opinions of anyone who decides to disagree with me, but please consider the positive and negative outcomes that your words/actions will bring.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 16:15      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Originally posted by Spiderman:
What concerns me, is the jump-down-your-throat unfriendly atmosphere that has developed.

You're right. We should not be quick to attack if there is not 'obvious' trolling. A little patience is a lovely thing.

I'm remembering why I joined here 3.5 years ago. The atmosphere was inviting, and this place was honestly very different than most other forums on the net, or god forbid, usenet.

I understand that the climate has changed as there is an influx of new users due to increased site popularity, etc. but I feel this is all the more reason to tone things down.


Seems a reasonable enough request.

I respect the opinions of anyone who decides to disagree with me, but please consider the positive and negative outcomes that your words/actions will bring.


And your respectful approach earns our respect, Spidey. Funny. It always seems to work just that way. [Big Grin] Thanks for reminding us.
[thumbsup]

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 16:41      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ahhh bollocks!

Stereo is completely on the money, as usual. You can tell the difference very easily between someone who is trying hard to say something and can't, and the inane attention seeking twitterings of Bambi whose only aim was to see if she could wind up a few men by talking about mini skirts and flirty girly flutter my eyelashes at u lol bec etc, none of which matters if she can also display an iota of wit, poetry or original thought. But I somehow doubt it.

I think everyone is being very tolerant and patient with her.

Asking people to put a bit of thought and effort into their posts is a damn good thing. If the lazy and illiterate choose to call us grammar Nazis, it's a label we should wear with pride.

See you all at Nuremburg! [Wink]

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csk

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 17:02      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with Cally. And we could have been much harsher, sometimes one can mock people without them even realisng you're doing it. To be honest, I think we tend to judge character pretty well.

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Snaggy

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 17:20      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm with Spidie, newbies deserve a little slack. If you think a troll is posting, there's nothing better imho than ignoring the thread. Better that than scare off a legitimate newbie who might one day blossom into a valuable member, as so many have in the past.

And hey, if they don't, chances are I'll deal with them soon enough. [devil wand]

As GMx pointed out, there have always been trolls here. And hopefully Cap'n Vic, Rednivek, and spungo will post more! [Razz]

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 17:23      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
[N]one of which matters if she can also display an iota of wit, poetry or original thought.

Wit? Poetry? Original thought? Then who let [insert board member here] in?

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Serenak

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 18:05      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There is a difference between slamming lazy "AOL"isms and the pointless "txt me l8r m8" and true "spelling and grammar police".

I hate to see lazy grammar and poor spelling - but I know not everyone on here has:

1) English as a first language
2) As good an education as they would like
3) The easy ability some of us take for granted in writing and spelling correctly

However I think it is (usually) pretty obvious which posters are just having problems with written English (regardless of the reasons) and those who are just lazy, timewasting, trollish or other fools.

Sure we should not slam a n00b for poor spelling or grammar for the hell of it... and on the whole I don't think we do...

Usually those who get slammed are not only using rubbish spelling and grammar but are talking gibberish too.

I myself know of at least two infrequent posters here whose written English makes me cringe... but I know they both have dyslexia type problems or worse - but their postings (even if occasionally hard to decipher) usually have a point to them...

"oh lol yeh, I seen this guy an he is teh roxor bt he don wt 2 date w me an he is teh geek n I luv him but he don wan date w me [Frown] " Doesn't qualify as good conversation to me - in Geek Love or elsewhere on this board.

I myself have stepped out of line and (quite validly) been slapped down... It happens to all of us sooner or later.

But on the whole the one post "help requesters" and the AOL kiddies can go elsewhere as far as i am concerned.

Sure regulars will come and regulars will go...

Spungo and Vic and some others who were on every day when I joined are less frequent now...

Sure we should not be too quick to judge - but I think most of us can tell a real post "trying to bust out from under" from the inane gibberish some think passes for English.

Calli is one of the older members on this board and I for one have a lot of respect for his opinions. I don't always agree with him but I have respect for him...

I have little or no respect for the "OMG - he is teh h0t and I pwn him but he gon fsck w my gf..." posters.

Just my £0.02

Thanks for listening

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 20:10      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Grammer Nazis serve a good cause in our society.

As a member of the Waffen SS Grammer Nazis I have floated the idea of punishment amongst my bierhall buddies, and most agree that Spidey should be dangled by his particples until they turn blue.

Spidey, I suspect you have a checkered past participle.

No Grammar for YOU!

Colonel Panic

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 20:22      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Grammer Nazis serve a good cause in our society.

As a member of the Waffen SS Grammer Nazis I have floated the idea of punishment amongst my bierhall buddies, and most agree that Spidey should be dangled by his particples until they turn blue.

Spidey, I suspect you have a checkered past participle.

No Grammar for YOU!

Colonel Panic

It's "grammar," damn it! G-R-A-M-M-A-R! No "E" whatsoever!

I hereby suspend your grammar Nazi privileges. [Wink]

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Colonel Panic
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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 20:28      Profile for Colonel Panic         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Panic:
Grammer Nazis serve a good cause in our society.

As a member of the Waffen SS Grammer Nazis I have floated the idea of punishment amongst my bierhall buddies, and most agree that Spidey should be dangled by his particples until they turn blue.

Spidey, I suspect you have a checkered past participle.

No Grammar for YOU!

Colonel Panic

It's "grammar," damn it! G-R-A-M-M-A-R! No "E" whatsoever!

I hereby suspend your grammar Nazi privileges. [Wink]

Ze virst uzach ist zimply a tezt. You vill lif vor a day, zilly vool.

(Hey, pretty cool "Mission Impossible" lankvich, nicht whar?

[Wink]

CP

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted January 30, 2006 21:00      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Okay, I'm going to be rather blunt. You've all been warned.

First of all, while the trolls and the AIMglish get really annoying, the grammatical flaming is just as annoying and just as unpleasant. This was one of the reasons why I posted the Twelve Rules of Flaming. I got a good laugh and a moment of hard reflection and I thought I'd pass the favor along. True, some of the posts that have been appearing here are hard to look at and not really worth the effort, but it might be better if all of us, as a group, got a little less high-strung.

Second of all, as I read this thread, I can't help but feel like there's a double-standard being applied. I know that my own posts tend to be riddled with typos. If I notice, I may fix them. Or I may not. It depends on if I feel like what I'm trying to say is worth the effort of hitting the edit button. Yet NONE OF YOU, not even you self-professed Grammar Nazis, EVER call me out. You flame the n00bs like it's going out of style, but not me. Why the HELL is that? Is it because you don't read my posts? Is it because of my join date and post count? My overall rep? The fact I'm considered "cool"? All of those reasons, except to not reading my posts, is pure bullshit and you all know it. I hate cliquishness witha passion and I will not be subject to it.

I've also noticed a similar tendency to ignore errors in GM's posts. He's also a senior member here.

If you're going to be a Grammar Nazi, then for heaven's sake be fair about it. If you're going to call the newbies out on the carpet over their typos, do it to the oldbies too. I can tell you right now I won't like it if you do that to me, and I reserve the right to ignore your nit-picking, but I'd rather put up with that kind of crap than this double-standard garbage.

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Alan!
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Icon 12 posted January 30, 2006 23:46      Profile for Alan!     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I can't find a single spelling or grammatical error in your post, sorry [Wink]

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magefile
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 00:01      Profile for magefile     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Second of all, as I read this thread, I can't help but feel like there's a double-standard being applied. I know that my own posts tend to be riddled with typos.

It's not a double standard. Your posts are never as bad as some of the trolls we've seen around here, for one thing. eye don' hink 'at's evn a ? heer

For another, the content involved is different.

Finally, if there is a double standard, it's not necessarily unjustified. You've been around here for quite a while; you have demonstrated that you understand and respect the cultural standards of this forum, and that you have something to contribute to the discussion. Thus, there is an incentive to ignore minor infractions. Newbies don't have that track record.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 00:01      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You flame the n00bs like it's going out of style, but not me. Why the HELL is that? Is it because you don't read my posts? Is it because of my join date and post count? My overall rep? The fact I'm considered "cool"? All of those reasons, except to not reading my posts, is pure bullshit and you all know it. I hate cliquishness witha passion and I will not be subject to it.

Your an established member who has given back to the boards. If someone comes here looking only for answers to their problems, and doesn't involve themselves in anything other than "HELP! I have a proble with [my SO/person I want to be my SO/computer/homework]" -- then they aren't part of the group, because they are excluding themselves. In which case, the best thing to do is just not feed the troll.

I've also noticed a similar tendency to ignore errors in GM's posts.

That's because they just ignore my posts... When they were reading them, I was getting the riot act all the time. They realized I wouldn't budge much. BTW, thanks for turning me back into a lightening rod.

He's also a senior member here.

Does that mean I get a discount at the movies?

If you're going to be a Grammar Nazi, then for heaven's sake be fair about it. If you're going to call the newbies out on the carpet over their typos, do it to the oldbies too.

They do... Every now and again they do do (and that isn't a typo) it to me. Typically, when I take an opion that isn't popular arround here. Then again, when I am writting a heated post my mind is moving faster than my fingers and I miss letters/words/sentances/paragraphs that I mean to include. Which is why I've stayed away from politically hot topics for a long while, now.

I can tell you right now I won't like it if you do that to me, and I reserve the right to ignore your nit-picking,

That's what I've always done, and that's why they lay off me. They know it's not going to get them anywhere.

but I'd rather put up with that kind of crap than this double-standard garbage.
Great, now every other post is going to be... "You ended that sentence with a preposition", "You split the infinative" and "I object to that usage of the word 'is'".

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Demosthenes
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Icon 1 posted January 31, 2006 01:12      Profile for Demosthenes     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spiderman:
I'm remembering why I joined here 3.5 years ago. The atmosphere was inviting, and this place was honestly very different than most other forums on the net, or god forbid, usenet.

No fucking way, man...I've been skulking around here for over five years now, dragging the "open and inviting atmosphere" down the tubes.

I feel like it's my job now. [Razz]

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