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Author Topic: NEWSFLASH: Satan killed by giant flying snowball
Erbo
BlabberMouth, the Next Generation
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Icon 1 posted June 06, 2005 22:07      Profile for Erbo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:

“We plan to create future versions of Microsoft Office for the Mac that support both PowerPC and Intel processors,” said Roz Ho, general manager of Microsoft’s Macintosh Business Unit. “We have a strong relationship with Apple and will work closely with them to continue our long tradition of making great applications for a great platform.”


So they say. Or so you hear them say. Today. But I think it might behoove Apple to put some effort behind a proper port of OpenOffice.org 2.0 to Aqua. Just in case.

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See more From The Erbo Files: www.erbosoft.com/blog/

Posts: 1480 | From: Denver, CO, US | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged
Orpheus
Highlie
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2005 14:55      Profile for Orpheus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'm about rid of M$ altogether. I just wrote my research proposal entirely with free software. OpenOffice for the word processing, bibliography management, and pdf export, The GIMP for editing and creating figures, GnuPlot for plotting and fitting all my data which was partially conditioned in Gnumeric spreadsheets, and finally PyMOL to generate pretty pictures of my proteins. All running on Linux (SuSE 9.2). Now if they'd just port the World of Warcraft client to linux I'd be set. Hmm...

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my cats make me crazy

Posts: 554 | From: Galveston, TX | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
GameMaster
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2005 15:59      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Orph, why not just use LaTex?

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My Site

Posts: 3038 | From: State of insanity | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Xanthine

Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2005 18:00      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Aw man, you have pretty 3-D structures for your research proposal? All I had was some secondary structures out of the literature for mine.

/me gives her RNA a kick

Crystallize dammit!

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
- The Decemberists

Posts: 7667 | From: the lab | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
jfw
Solid Nitrozanium SuperFan!
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2005 19:32      Profile for jfw     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Stereo:
I'm not sure whether you are right or wrong. I got a new iMac two months ago. I am not happy to know that in two years, that Mac will be utterly obsolete, and I'm scared that by then, any new software will be made available for the new chip only - even if Apple says fat binary will be easy.

Funny you should mention that. I had been on the cusp of replacing a couple of Macs, and I'm now in a serious quandry. But here's the thing: the Macs in question are a 2x1GHz MDD Powermac, and a 1GHz lump-stick-rectangle iMac -- two years ten months and two years four months old, respectively. Granted, they aren't "utterly obsolete": the only reason to replace the iMac, and the primary reason to replace the PMac, is that neither one will run The Sims 2. (My wife, the only one in the family who does not play computer games, is the only one with a Mac that can comfortably handle The Sims 2. Figures.) (The other reason for replacing the PowerMac? "Wind Tunnel." It's in the bedroom...)

So that means that I would be replacing them with "doomed" machines with a practical lifetime of, um, just about what the machines to be replaced have had. And what with the continuing march of progress in writing more and more bloated, complex software, new machines would probably be doomed to being too slow to run the tastiest software of 2007 anyway.

But still -- there's a difference between a graceful retirement into the closet (a closet with an outlet and ethernet jack of course -- gotta have a spare file server!), and a forced retirement due to not having any new software at all. Except... 68K software continued at least a couple of years after PPC machines started shipping, and the differences -- to a developer -- between a PowerMac and a PentiuMac are less in most regards than the differences between a 68K Mac and a PowerMac. (Byte order mistakes are for newbies, harrumph!) So I strongly suspect that the real motivating factor in early 2008 for considering a 2005 PowerMac to be a dusty relic will not be the absence of software but the raw power that a 5GHz PentiuMac can deliver.

quote:
More of concern is the fact that I've read on Macworld's forum that Intel chips are actually cost more than the actual PowerPC. I don't know if it's true, but if so, that's a huge hit for Apple's margin, and new Macs may end up costing more than they already do.
Even if the Pentium is cheaper than a PPC (which was certainly true the last time I compared prices, but Intel may have offered Apple a sweet deal, and the rumors indicate that IBM recently declined to do that very thing), Apple's indication that a PentiuMac will "probably" run Windows indicates that Apple is going to be using standard system chipsets, which means they will save money on that part. (It's actually kind of unfortunate, because they'll be inheriting a bunch of legacy DOS-oriented hardware crap they would be better off without, but at least they won't have to actually try to support it, which will minimize the impact on system stability.)

quote:
Imagine a few million more copies of OS X sold because of its sudden availability to the Wintel world.
Imagine a few dozen more copies of OS X sold and a few million more copies of OS X pirated because of its sudden availability to the Wintel world. No, I suspect Apple will be tying Mac OS X to their own hardware for some time to come. Anyway, Apple hasn't got the support staff needed to handle every cheesy white-box PC combination in the world. Microsoft wouldn't, either, if they actually provided anything even remotely like "support".

quote:
My main sore point at this time: Altivec. How will Intel replace that is a big question mark.
Reportedly, the latest SSE3 vectorization instruction set for the Pentium is of equivalent quality to Altivec. And well it should be, it's their fourth or fifth try! (What the heck, shove another instruction set in there, the chip isn't vaporizing the Vdd traces yet!) It's not a direct mapping, though, so all four developers who bothered to use Altivec are in for some hard thinking.
Posts: 20 | From: Boxboro Massachusetts | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Danapoppa
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Icon 1 posted June 07, 2005 20:42      Profile for Danapoppa     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dp004i:
That was a bad move, IMHO - now people will find it much harder to justify spending two grand on a Power Mac, knowing that beneath the pretty exterior are the same parts that go into a sub-$1000 Dell.

Consumers who make judgements based on superficial facts may feel this way, but a CPU is only one part. The big difference between a Mac and a Dell will be in the chipset and motherboard design, and in this regard I expect Apple will continue to seek innovative solutions to architecture problems. At the very least, I doubt you'll see a Mac with the GPU built into the chipset (which is what you get on cheap computers these days), except maybe at the very low end.

quote:
Originally posted by dp004i:
Combine that with the fact that somebody might be able to find a way to hack OSX so it can run on non-Apple hardware, and they have a real problem on their hands.

That is the big risk they're taking, but since they seem dead-set against letting OSX run on other machines, it's a cinch the OS will lack needed driver support for a lot of hardware not found on Macs. Hacking it may be possible, but I'd guess it won't be very easy at all.

quote:
Originally posted by dp004i:
It would be nice if Apple finally decides to stop charging an arm and a leg for their hardware and gets their prices in line with the rest of PC makers, but that's probably just wishful thinking. I highly doubt we'll be seeing $800 Power Macs any time soon.

Probably not, but then again you probably won't be seeing Power Macs with the GPU in the chipset, either. I'd hope Apple would try to maintain their reputation for quality hardware design, and they must charge something for that, because it doesn't come cheap. Wishing for an $800 Power Mac is like asking for a Ferrari at Fiat prices. You'll end up getting what you paid for.

That said, I think the prices will come down a bit. And even if they don't, the cost-performance of the new Macs will be just amazing! You'll get a machine that can run OSX, Windows, and Linux ... in fact, I'd be very surprised if Apple doesn't offer Macs with Windows preinstalled, if not as a standard feature, then at least as a BTO option.

...And if that happens, all those hemming and hawing gamers out there who have spent the last few years saying "Gee, I love OSX, but it sucks that few games get ported to the Mac" will no longer have an excuse not to buy Apple hardware.

For that matter, anyone who wants to use OSX but can't get rid of Windows and can't justify buying two machines will suddenly have the option of buying one machine that can do both. Even if that one machine is slightly more expensive, isn't it worth it?

That's what Apple's betting on, I think.

Posts: 237 | From: South of Mt. Fuji | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
littlefish
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted June 08, 2005 00:40      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
/me gives her RNA a kick

Crystallize dammit!

There's your problem- Stop kicking it!

One of our Profs has a story about how he couldn't get any crystals for ages and had no clue why. It turns out that the cleaners were coming in and bashing his samples about. When he told them to stop cleaning his lab he got crystals straight away.

Now he does all of his crystallisations in a locked room that no-one has access to. With much enhanced success

Posts: 2421 | From: That London | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
Serenak

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Icon 1 posted June 08, 2005 03:08      Profile for Serenak     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
JFW

If you want/need new Macs go buy them, I don't see this changeover really being any worse then the 68k to PPC System 7 period was.

In 2-3 years time your Macs will still be running fine and although you might start to look at the newer models with envy you will no doubt get a good couple of years more out of them before you *have* to replace them...

Why will they be "forced" into obsolescence any faster than they are now? So maybe they'll be stuck at 10.5 (or perhaps 10.6) but they'd be struggling to keep up with newer models by then anyway (PPC, AMD, x86, OMG, BBQ... whatever).

I've got Macs dating back to dot and they all work fine, the SE is still at 6.0.7, some are stuck at 7.6, some at 8.1, my Beige G3 ought to run X 10.2 but won't (not reliably) so is at 9.2. OK, so I can't run the latest greatest software on them but you can type a letter in Claris Works 1.0 or MacWrite II just as well as you can in InDesign CS or MS Word 10.x and you can produce a school newsletter or kid's essay in PageMaker 4 or Word 5.1 without breaking a sweat. Hell when I started on a Mac IIcx PageMaker 4, Illustrator 3 and Photoshop 2 *was* the cutting edge

At work I have a G5 2GHz DP, sure the switch to Intel is gonna miff me, and maybe I'll have to consider an upgrade a year earlier than I would have but as long as my machine can keep handling the customers' work it is a good machine (and to be honest we could produce a lot of our "in house only" work on a 7200 in Illustrator and PageMaker c1996).

Computers can be chucked because they're old or you can find a use for them. Most Macs serve 5-6 years front line service tops in my experience. I doubt this change will reduce that by much more than the relentless advance of technology would in any event...

Go buy your Macs or if you think your current ones will last you another year or so wait and see what happens....

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"So if you want my address - it's No. 1 at the end of the bar, where I sit with the broken angels, clutching at straws and nursing my scars..."

Posts: 1922 | From: Suffolk England | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Danapoppa
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Icon 1 posted June 08, 2005 03:16      Profile for Danapoppa     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with Serenak. I'm pretty happy with my Dual 2 GHz G5, even though it's no longer top of the line, and it'll probably keep me satisfied for a while yet.

And if there's even a little chance of teething problems due to the switch to Intel, then I figure I might as well let them work the bugs out and get the new architecture established by the time I'm ready to buy again, sometime in say 2008 or 2009.

Of course, there may be a few drawbacks. For example, I can't help but wondering if plans to port some games to Mac will end up getting shelved because PPC-oriented products will now be perceived as having a reduced shelf life.

Posts: 237 | From: South of Mt. Fuji | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Danapoppa
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Icon 1 posted June 08, 2005 15:24      Profile for Danapoppa     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danapoppa:
... in fact, I'd be very surprised if Apple doesn't offer Macs with Windows preinstalled, if not as a standard feature, then at least as a BTO option.

I just read where Apple's saying this isn't going to happen. It's probably just as well ... but then again, who knows what the future will bring.

I mean, a week or so ago you wou wouldn'a thought Apple would be using Intel processors, eh? [Roll Eyes]

Posts: 237 | From: South of Mt. Fuji | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
Hikaru
Alpha Geek
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Icon 1 posted June 08, 2005 17:30      Profile for Hikaru   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You know, The Greeks wrote Tradgedies about just such a thing happening, I think they ended with everyone dying in Nuclear Fire thanks to Lord Martha.

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Sister Woman, she speaks for the collective, that and scolds me for my poor typing, dont let her smile fool you.

Posts: 317 | From: AppleDale, USA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
PPC Defender
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Icon 1 posted June 08, 2005 19:29      Profile for PPC Defender   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Either the boys and girls at cnet have been using far too many recreational chemicals, or they've fallen for an Apple misinformation campaign. I'll bet my left ball that the story's b*llsh*t.

ok... hand over the left ball, NOW!

[devil wand]

Posts: 2 | From: Federal Way, WA (close to Seattle) | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Tom- geeking around

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Icon 14 posted June 09, 2005 03:01      Profile for Tom- geeking around   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And now please take off your Apple-ized sunglasses please.
Switching to Intel might mean a big loss in individuality and "be-different" for the Macintosh community - which is a loss too..
But now see it from this side: Intel is a huge manufacturer for chipsets and CPUs. I am not sure how well IBM did in improving the PowerPC chips,, but I am sure that Intel will do a better job.
Finally improvements in speed and performance will be made more faster-> the computers will be performing better and have a fair chance in comparing performance-wise next to Linux and Windows users..

I mean- what's the problem when a new and better chip will be released every month, or week? Thats development and evolution guys..
Right now its great news when faster Apple computers are out.- lets say every 3 months, or 4?????
Thats just slow--..

An Apple computer doing its job for up to 6 years? .. LOL.. Even though it would be an unfair comparison, - but they should be considered ancient...

Well -- I am glad that Apple switches to Intel. Good thing..

Thomas

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Everything I say espressis onley my own op1ni0n, and shall not reprisent the openion of othar Austrians.
Pizza and ginormous jugs is what I need!

Whoever finds typos or spelling mistakes in my posts may keep them.

Posts: 371 | From: Vienna | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2005 05:48      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by PPC Defender:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Either the boys and girls at cnet have been using far too many recreational chemicals, or they've fallen for an Apple misinformation campaign. I'll bet my left ball that the story's b*llsh*t.

ok... hand over the left ball, NOW!

[devil wand]

I offered the bet, no-one took me up on it.
(just as well, what would you do with one severed ball?)
(don't answer that!)

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10448 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
drunkennewfiemidget
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2005 09:34      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by PPC Defender:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Either the boys and girls at cnet have been using far too many recreational chemicals, or they've fallen for an Apple misinformation campaign. I'll bet my left ball that the story's b*llsh*t.

ok... hand over the left ball, NOW!

[devil wand]

I offered the bet, no-one took me up on it.
(just as well, what would you do with one severed ball?)
(don't answer that!)

Excuses. [Wink]
Posts: 4894 | From: Kitchener, ON, Canada | Registered: Jun 2004  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted June 09, 2005 10:12      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
From a technology point of view, running Mac OS X on Intel machines is fairly "simple," and Mac OS X when released for an Intel machine will probably have as many bugs as 10.4.0 had. In terms of function and operations, Unix, Linux, and Darwin are essentially the same. QuickTime and iTunes demonstrated Apple's ability to port to Intel. How much different is the Mac OS X GUI from KDE and GNOME? Is it "impossible" to get "Mac-like" behavior from them? Or the better question is: can KDE and GNOME gain widespread acceptance as products which provide the reliability and effectiveness that business demands?
quote:
Originally posted by Tom-geeking around:
Well -- I am glad that Apple switches to Intel. Good thing..

The market is where Apple could find itself with "the best product in the world" and no money to pay their debts. I would really like to know Steve's projections of how much more revenue the Intel switch will bring. I hope he doesn't think that Apple can make cheaper Intel machines than companies that have a decade or more of experience, and still make an acceptable profit.

What if developers are encouraged to develop for the Mac OS X on Intel, and they discover that it's not so hard to make their products work under Linux, where they can get a market "a hundred times" larger?

What if M$ Office on the Intel Mac is perfect, but costs $350 to put on the new machine because there's a "disagreement" on licensing of bundled software? Or M$ could "balk" on Office development: "ya' know, this product only ships to 0.09% of the market ... maybe if you financed it, we could finish a little sooner."

Can Apple afford an entire year where hardware sales are down 35% from the previous year and still finance a manufacturing shift to a significantly different product?

This scares me, but I guess I can always use Linux or FreeBSD...... [ohwell]

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Orpheus
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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2005 11:02      Profile for Orpheus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I always put pretty pictures in things. I should probably get a job illustrating text books or desigining sciencey graphical things. Btw if you get a nice structure you can use nuccyl in combination w/ pymol to show nice nucleic accid structures.

I actually started using LaTeX, but I was running low on time to learn enough to format it correctly, or find a good style for my document. OO was just easier at the time. Someday though I'll go back and learn enough LaTeX to write papers and such in.

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my cats make me crazy

Posts: 554 | From: Galveston, TX | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
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Icon 11 posted June 09, 2005 11:48      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Eek!]
quote:
Star Trek was the code name given to a prototype project at Apple Computer during 1992 and 1993. Star Trek was to be a version of the Macintosh operating system which ran on Intel-compatible x86 personal computers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project

Yeessh .... the Intel Mac idea is Really not new. I'm almost scared see what other secrets Apple has locked away.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Orpheus
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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2005 14:54      Profile for Orpheus     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
I'm almost scared see what other secrets Apple has locked away.

Now in Strawberry, Blueberry, Kiwi, and Mist!

 -

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my cats make me crazy

Posts: 554 | From: Galveston, TX | Registered: Oct 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
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Icon 5 posted June 10, 2005 11:25      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Is history repeating itself ?

1995 - 1998: the Mac Clones -- example, DayStar Genesis MP, available with 4 CPU's
    (killed by Apple ....)

2006: an Intel Mac with dual processors (hmmmm, make that 4 CPU's !)

Naturally, it will be the most BAD _SS personal computer ... that is until Apple has it killed through manipulation of license agreements.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted June 10, 2005 15:31      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some interesting thoughts on this. Among the questions that interest me the most are:-

  • Will Apple be able to prevent hackers from producing a version of OSX that runs on an ordinary PC. I really do not have enough tech knowledge to comment, but certainly there will be many trying to pull this trick off.
  • How will this move affect Apple's already shaky relationship with the linux/open source community, from whom they have derived great benefits, now that they are running on the same CPUs?
  • How tempting to PC users would stylish Apple hardware be, that can also run Windows too with little or no performance penalty, (though I would imagine MS may try to prevent this happening)?

Undoubtedly this move will open a can of worms and as the consequences are hard to predict, I think it is far from certain who this will benefit in the long run.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

Posts: 2922 | From: Brighton - UK | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted June 22, 2005 22:14      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
News: Apple discontinues 1.8GHz single processor G5
Monday, June 20, 2005

My original conspiracy theory regarding the Intel Mac was that Bill Gates' secret M$ labs had successfully created a "Reality Distortion Field Reflector" (disguised as a cell-phone):
quote:
Bill approached Steve, Steve sensed that Bill had acquired RDF ability and attempted to over-power Bill's RDF. The RDF feedback loop increased exponentially until the streets were filled with an infinite number of monkeys with typewriters, and both men were flung back in time by eight minutes. Bill, upon checking his "cell-phone," saw the recorded video of his future encounter with Jobs followed by the infinite monkeys, and knew that this would be the most insane WWDC ever.
But I looked into some other explanations:

* Steve Jobs had predicted a 3 GHz PowerMac G5 ... it still hasn't happened. My guess is that IBM has no intention of "losing money" just so Steve can have what he wants.

* Intel wants to sell more CPU's. It's in their best interest. Apple and it's Unix-based OS rely on 64-bit capabilities (and vector processing) for performance. Intel would love having it's CPU's at continuous 64-bit performance, instead of them dropping down to 32-bit for legacy code in Windows. Imagine "Intel Mac Supercomputing Cluster" making the news.... (free advertising)

Oddly enough, IBM's G5 CPU's are still major powerhouses. They are the heart of some of the most cost effective Supercomputing clusters, and Apple promotes the G5 as outperforming Intel and AMD.

 -

From IBM's point of view:

1. The G5 is pretty damn powerful, at a damn good price. (Hence the Supercomputing use.)

2. If you really want computing power, put more processors on the board. (That's how we make "Big Iron": eServer p5 595 with 64 POWER5 processors.)

3. If you want to make a video game box, we have the Cell processor. Note: Sony is using the chip in their "PlayStation 3" game console to be released in 2006.

[Wink] I'm almost out of the denial phase.

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

Posts: 1035 | From: Third rock from sun. | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged


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