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» The Geek Culture Forums!   » News, Reviews, Views!   » Rants, Raves, Rumors!   » Rumsfeld - should he resign? (Page 2)

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Author Topic: Rumsfeld - should he resign?
Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2004 22:18      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Senator Ted Kennedy said: "We have a great sense of revulsion . . . but we also recognise what the dangers are for American troops if they are even taken prisoner and the kind of treatment that they would be subject to".

yeah - they might be driven of a bridge by a drunk who runs to his lawyer before trying to help.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2004 22:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
ok read it - soldiers may have disobeyed and are being tried - What else Are their superiors do?

Quit because some under them did somehting wrong or punish the wrongdoers?

Except it's not a case of a few privates disobeying orders, it's a case of a lot of soldiers obeying orders.

The Red Cross has described the abuse and torture of Iraqi and Afghan prisoners as 'widespread and systematic'.

The official investigation by a 2-star US general found that these soldiers were obeying orders from higher up, and recommended charges against senior Military Intelligence and CIA officials. These men have not been disciplined in any way. Why not?

Could it be that these people could be expected to name the people at the top who gave them the orders? Could this be why Rumsfeld won't take action against them?

At the very least, Runsfeld is part of the cover up, we won't know whether he actually gave the orders himself until there's a proper investigation, one that's not conducted by people Rumsfeld appoints himself.

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snupy
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Icon 1 posted May 08, 2004 23:42      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:
[QUOTE] I'm not trying to stir up the hornet's nest on this, but sexual contact (such as you describe) without consent is rape, and that is not a laughing matter. I believe your attitude toward that is what Snups is finding so difficult,

Exactly. Very disturbing.
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2004 00:14      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Could it be?

What kind of logical thought process is that?

They have been investigating and are still investigating. Unfortunately thise things must go through a LEGAL process and we in America can't just say "I think he did it so let's just line him up and start shooting"

IF he has done somehthing wrong then of course he should be fired and/or prosecuted.

BUT THAT"S A BIG LEAP

Let's prove somebody did something before we just take our political feelings and start slinging out sentences.

It's amazing how quickly we judge those we don't aagree with.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2004 01:33      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
It's amazing how quickly we judge those we don't aagree with.

This from someone who's happy to call rape, torture and murder a 'fraternity style prank' if it's committed by someone he agrees with.

Rumsfeld has accepted responsibility for the abuses, in public, before the United States Congress. He has to go.

If it's proven that he gave (or knew of) the orders, then he should also be charged with war crimes, but what we already know is enough to justify the end of his political career.

--------------------
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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2004 01:54      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by snupy:
quote:
Originally posted by Grey_girl:
[QUOTE] I'm not trying to stir up the hornet's nest on this, but sexual contact (such as you describe) without consent is rape, and that is not a laughing matter. I believe your attitude toward that is what Snups is finding so difficult,

Exactly. Very disturbing.
I understand your concerns but assure you that if you understood my friends and I that you would know that these kind of things (tee-bags, steamin sanchezes, bumpkins) happen quite often. And though there is no actuall vergal or written consent, we all know that if it truly bothered someone not to do it. There are only four of us who do these types of pranks and we only do them to each other and this is why we can laugh about it, because something has happened to us all.
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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2004 14:45      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
Remember, if everyone who was ever in authority over someone that committed a crime was punished then who would be left in charge of anything?

It makes more sense to me to punish those in charge rather than some ignorant girl from a trailer park in Cabbageville, Nowhere, who was stupid enough not only to do the deed but be photographed as well. It's the army, not her that is responsible, and ultimately the arrogant, ignorant, gung ho, trigger happy attitude that led to this comes from the very top. That is why Rumsfeld should go, and go now. I also pray that Bush will not be so very far behind him.

And Jace, charming as you are, I confess that I am glad not to be one of your intimate acquaintances. [Wink]

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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snupy
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Icon 9 posted May 09, 2004 20:13      Profile for snupy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
[QUOTE]There are only four of us who do these types of pranks and we only do them to each other and this is why we can laugh about it, because something has happened to us all.

So, you've been sodomized with a broom handle?

What does this say about our future when a child thinks this is ok? [Frown]

--------------------
"I just ordered an extra-long straw to avoid accidentally doing a sit-up"-Jay, Modern Family

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Grey_girl

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Icon 1 posted May 09, 2004 20:47      Profile for Grey_girl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jace Raven:
I understand your concerns but assure you that if you understood my friends and I that you would know that these kind of things (tee-bags, steamin sanchezes, bumpkins) happen quite often. And though there is no actuall vergal or written consent, we all know that if it truly bothered someone not to do it. There are only four of us who do these types of pranks and we only do them to each other and this is why we can laugh about it, because something has happened to us all.

But how would you know if it "truly" bothered someone? I don't believe you would. Two words: Peer pressure. To be one of the gang, you have to go along.

If someone is drunk, they can not give consent, implied or otherwise. End of story. And your friend was drunk.

And besides, Jace, everyone appearing to agree to it doesn't make it acceptable behavior. Yes, I do know that in most situations, agreement is consent and therefore the action is acceptable, but this really does cross a line.

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Shooshie
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I've been reading this thread, and though I'm not a regular here (been lurking for years, and reading all the comics), I had to say a few things about this. First of all, this is not the first time that the USA has done something horrifically embarrassing and incriminating to ourselves. The Iran/Contra scandal, engineered by Dubya's father and carried out by operatives from the White House, to the CIA, to the military, to organized crime--and based in Mena, Arkansas--was a blight on our reputation that should have seen massive prosecutions right up to the source, ex-chief-spook and current veep George HW Bush. Then we can go back to even earlier operations which may have involved some of the same people, such as re-installing the Shah as our puppet leader of Iran in 1953 after he had been forced out by his own people. This led to the building of prisons and torture chambers with staff allegedly equipped and trained by our CIA. Of course, oil had a lot to do with that. Both these operations caused pain and suffering in the Middle East, but they are not as well known or understood as the current situation. Nevertheless, we already had a reputation as "The Great Satan," and it wasn't a haphazardly chosen name. These people are tired of our dispensing of pain. Even Saddam was equipped and supported by the US. Oh, and the Taliban... they were on the US payroll from about 1978 through August of 2001. Osama bin Laden was a CIA-trained spy and counter-insurgent whose family has close ties to the Bushes.

Ok, I've established a rather sordid history that our apologists would rather keep quiet. Fast forward to the near-present. Rummy and Ashcroft claimed, when questioned about Guantanamo and the manner in which the prisoners were being detained, that this situation is not under the jurisdiction of the Geneva Convention. That was one of the big tip-offs that these guys had no business in their positions. Ego above all. The Geneva Convention was made for guys like that. So, when we took prisoners in Iraq, the Guantanamo guys "trained" the staff. In fact, it has come out in unofficial interviews that the torture was specifically mandated by some of the MI spooks from Guantanamo who had flown over to teach them how to make the Iraqis talk, and the guards were positively reinforced and commended for good work when the prisoners did indeed start spilling their guts after the new techniques started working.

Ok, have we moved beyond "fraternity pranks" yet? Are small minds still envisioning this as just a little fun that some soldiers were having a the expense of a few unfortunate Iraqis to be paid off later? Get real. This comes from the top. Rummy never planned to follow Geneva. There has never been a directive from the top which said to maintain honor. The focus has been to make these enemies talk. Find those WMDs. Find those other Republican Guard officers. Soften up the opposition. Geneva Schmeneva.

This is the most shameful and embarrassing event which the US has perpetrated, not counting the war itself. This will assure us of generations of reprisals to come. We have created our own enemy. There is no excuse for this, and the entire chain of command from the guards, right up through their direct superiors to Rummy, should be fired. Rummy probably deserves a trial for war crimes. If he's innocent, let an international tribunal find him so.

Geneva Convention was adopted to stop this kind of thing from happening, or at least discourage it. We have blatantly flaunted our superiority over Geneva. We're a unilateral force who nobody tells what to do. Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Perle, and Bush himself all need to be removed for this.

Let me close with a link to a female Iraqi blogger. Read the entry "Just Go" which should be at the top unless she posts another one today. We need to rethink what path led us to this. How did these people (Bush and company) acquire the Oval Office? What is going on here? This is severely wrong. We have let an illegitimate administration destroy our reputation in this world. You think what the world thinks doesn't matter? You can think that after 9/11? We're in trouble folks, and no matter which way we choose in the upcoming election, that trouble won't be fixed. But... and this is an important but... if we reaffirm our current administration, it will send the worst kind of message to the world: "we're proud of what we've done to you. We approve of it." And prepare to see many more wars, a draft, and the decline of the America we once knew.


Shooshie

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 04:10      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
___________The true measure of a person is how they treat someone that has no recourse.

--------------------
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


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MTB Babe
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Icon 8 posted May 10, 2004 10:00      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Shooshie:
... if we reaffirm our current administration, it will send the worst kind of message to the world: "we're proud of what we've done to you. We approve of it." And prepare to see many more wars, a draft, and the decline of the America we once knew.

I definitely agree with this. I think this is a point that many people have neglected, or not even realized. It is, or should be, very obvious that the current administration has let this situation and the war happen at the expense of lives both Iraqi and American, and all around fscked up and haven't done nearly enough to rectify it. We need the rest of the world, and the world is pissed at us. The situation may be alleviated a little by getting rid of Bush and his cronies.

--------------------
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Michael Bolton: Yeah, well at least your name isn't Michael Bolton.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 10:31      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Shoosie: Thanks for the Blog link, interesting read. (Oh, and welcome....and happy de-lurking)

Funny thing, Rummy says he accepts responsiblity for the actions of the soldiers, but what does that mean aside from a thinly veiled apology on TV? Jack squat.

Latest news reports say they will put one soldier on trial (on international TV) to show how serious they are about prosecuting the perps. [Roll Eyes]

Lets recap:

Bush and Bliar violate international law by invading Iraq

Bush pressures other countries into war with: "You're either with us, or against us" tactic.

They hold (without charges/trial) countless Iraqis in G'bay and other US prisions.

They get in over their heads and demand help from the UN (the same body they snubbed and said was outdated less that 2 years ago)

They torture, rape and mutilate the people they were there to 'liberate'.

Sounds more and more like the US is the 'evil doer' to me.

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angryjungman

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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 11:03      Profile for angryjungman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:

Bush pressures other countries into war with: "You're either with us, or against us" tactic.

Shouldn't that be "agin us"? [Wink]

--------------------
Meh.

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greycat

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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 11:35      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ivan:
I dont think what the world thinks matters. The world didn't elect Bush

Neither did the people of the USA.
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greycat

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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 14:51      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.johnkerry.com/petition/rumsfeld.php
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 19:24      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's amazing how people sitting in their den watching CNN can tell you everone who was involoved in an incident that took place halfway round the world.

There were some bad things that went on - things that were being prosecuted long before any of you ever heard of Abu Ghraib. Now all of a sudden, the people who were prosecuting were the ones who did the crime?

Yes, unfortunately some of the "poor, hapless wretches" that we have tried to help have gone on to be despicable despots - that's why we don't give them money anymore.

And if we don't support some third-world ruler who gilds his palace while his people starve, then we have "turned our backs on those less fortunate than ourselves".

It's a lose-lose situation as far as pleasing some people.


And just to give another Iraq-based opinion
deseretnews

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 10, 2004 19:54      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
It's amazing how people sitting in their den watching CNN can tell you everone who was involoved in an incident that took place halfway round the world.

kind of like people who can know that "no-one was hurt, no-one bruised, no one even got their toe-nails cut too short, it was all just sophmore pranks"
At least I have some basis in fact for my position, and not just a blind refusal to believe anything bad about my side.

And just to give another Iraq-based opinion
deseretnews

Gee, a senior official in the American occupation of Iraq asks one of the Iraqis working for him what he thinks about Americans torturing Iraqis.
After a stunned silence, the Iraqi replies "I love Americans, Americans are really good guys, three cheers for the red white and blue".

Who'da thunkit?

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Slurpy
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Icon 1 posted May 11, 2004 01:41      Profile for Slurpy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
It's amazing how quickly we judge those we don't aagree with.

This from someone who's happy to call rape, torture and murder a 'fraternity style prank' if it's committed by someone he agrees with.
To be fair, that statement was posted before Chesty had been shown the rape/death statistics, and was operating under the assumption that it was a bunch of "naughty" pictures. . .

--------------------
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 11, 2004 02:16      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Slurpy:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
It's amazing how quickly we judge those we don't aagree with.

This from someone who's happy to call rape, torture and murder a 'fraternity style prank' if it's committed by someone he agrees with.
To be fair, that statement was posted before Chesty had been shown the rape/death statistics, and was operating under the assumption that it was a bunch of "naughty" pictures. . .
Let's look at what Chesty said
quote:

It's amazing how people sitting in their den watching CNN can tell you everone who was involoved in an incident that took place halfway round the world.

So, he's critical of those who claim detailed knowledge of events based on watching CNN, and make rash judgements based on their preconcieved opinions of the people involved.

And yet, in an earlier post he said ...

quote:

Remember - no one was hurt, none of these prisoners had a bruise, there are no mass graves (that are not the work of Iraqi soldiers), they didn't trim their toenails too short, nothing.

This is a claim of detailed knowledge - but it had no factual basis whatsoever. It's based entirely on the assumption that 'our side' wouldn't do anything really nasty. Chesty 'knew' these things, even though he was 'halfway around the world', and he hadn't even bothered watching CNN.

Pot, kettle, black.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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crazyarlo
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Icon 1 posted May 11, 2004 13:05      Profile for crazyarlo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Shooshie:
First of all, this is not the first time that the USA has done something horrifically embarrassing and incriminating to ourselves.

Thank you for saying this. I have always contended that the peoples of the Middle East hated us for very good reasons, and I think you summarized it quite well.
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Chesty
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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2004 22:40      Profile for Chesty         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by somebody - I lost track

quote:

Remember - no one was hurt, none of these prisoners had a bruise, there are no mass graves (that are not the work of Iraqi soldiers), they didn't trim their toenails too short, nothing.

This is a claim of detailed knowledge - but it had no factual basis whatsoever. It's based entirely on the assumption that 'our side' wouldn't do anything really nasty. Chesty 'knew' these things, even though he was 'halfway around the world', and he hadn't even bothered watching CNN.

Pot, kettle, black. [/QB]

At the time I said that, no one had even hinted at anything other than pics of skinny guys with that redneck chick pointing at them. Not even the great Dan Rather had assumed anything other than the "horrific" act of making Saddam's thugs disrobe.

Now some other group has cut the head off this poor kid from the sticks and blamed us because we embarrassed their cohorts.

Refresh my memory ...

What were they retaliating for when they hung Americans from the bridge? what act had we done to enrage them against Daniel Perl?

Which is more troubling for you to look at ?


(could be troubling to look at - count to five)

[*]1


[*]2


[*]3


[*]4


[*]5


number one

or...


number two

Who are the real bad guys? punish the guards for what they've done but remember that nothing that has been or will be alleged that they have done is anywhere near the scale of evil that the very men they are doing it to have done and would do again if we let them out.

Don't kid yourself into believing those are the freaking iraqi boy scouts in that prison - these are heavy duty heartless killers.

And yes - compared to these bums our soldiers are as clean as can be.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2004 22:59      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
First of all, Chesty, there are underage readers here, please post links with warnings next time, not actual pictures.

Secondly, what the fsck happened to human rights? I don't condone the beheading of that poor guy, but I don't condemn the shameful display by those US soldiers, either. Who are the real bad guys, you ask? Anyone who violates the basic human rights of another individual, regardless of whether they feel justified in doing so.

If you seriously think that those Iraqis deserved what was done to them, then you're one seriously fscked up individual, in my opinion.

--------------------
6 weeks to go!

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted May 12, 2004 23:08      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Chesty:
At the time I said that, no one had even hinted at anything other than pics of skinny guys with that redneck chick pointing at them.

Have a look back at this thread, over 4 hours before your posting I make reference to the rape and torture claims, which had been in the US and foreign press the day before.

Now some other group has cut the head off this poor kid from the sticks and blamed us because we embarrassed their cohorts.

1. There you go again, describing rape, torture, and murder as "embarrassed"
2. I make no attempt to justify the beheading of the unfortunate American.

Refresh my memory ...

What were they retaliating for when they hung Americans from the bridge?


You mean aside from invading their country, killing thousands of their people, and raping and torturing prisoners in the name of 'human rights' ?

Who are the real bad guys? punish the guards for what they've done but remember that nothing that has been or will be alleged that they have done is anywhere near the scale of evil that the very men they are doing it to have done and would do again if we let them out.

For instance?
What had these people done that was worse than rape, torture, and murder?

Don't kid yourself into believing those are the freaking iraqi boy scouts in that prison - these are heavy duty heartless killers.

Then you must know more than the US major-general who did the report into this, he said 60% of the prisoners were no security threat at all.

Many were either common criminals (one torture victim interviewed by aussie media the other day had been picked up for a minor looting charge) or were just ordinary people picked up at checkpoints for no good reason (another victim interviewed in the aussie papers was arrested for the crime of carrying an Iraqi Olympic Association card in his wallet, a group that was on their list of Baath party fronts - he was an olympic swimmer)

Then of course there was the Iraqi general POW tortured to death in November, I can just picture his last few days....

CIA: Tell us about the WMDs.
POW: There aren't any.

<ZAP>

CIA: Tell us about the WMDs
POW: I'm telling you, there aren't any !

<ZAP !!!!>

CIA: Where are the nuclear weapons?
POW: If we'd had any, we'd have used them by now.

<ZAP !!!!!!!>

CIA: Where are the WMDs?
POW: (ominous silence)

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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sconzey
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Icon 1 posted May 13, 2004 01:56      Profile for sconzey     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The problem is that so much of the 'international law' is based on 'we'll obey this because we're ethical and you're not... nyaaaa'

In fact, there is no way to enforce international law unless we have a coalition of the law-abiding governments who agree on set punishment for the non-law-abiders

Posts: 490 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged


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