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Author Topic: Is it a war?
ooby
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2004 16:56      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Was it over when the germans bombed pearl harbor?"

I'm pretty sure we took on germany because it was invading every country around it, not because we were fighting japan.

We also didn't start fighting germany because of the holocaust. We found out about the holocaust after we started fighting them.

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2004 17:13      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GM you keep on mentioning the apocalyptic consequences were Kerry the antichrist to be elected President, and repeating the line about his voting record that is being hammered by Bush's TV adverts. I have heard those adverts and I don't even live in the US, so I doubt that any of us need those argument repeated. For what little it's worth, I also happen to think that they are rather shallow. If raking around the minutiae of someone's voting record is the best the Bush campaign can do they must be running scared, and rather short of ammunition. You should really not be surprised when someone in the party not in government votes against the government.

I view 4 more years of GWB with equal if not greater trepidation. I hate to imagine what the state of the world could be after another term of this charming but disastrous president.

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ooby
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2004 17:48      Profile for ooby     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I agree with calypso, but i would like to add some things about those ads.

For starters, they are overinflated. The claims seem to be too bad to be true, and it is not unreasonable to doubt such large claims.

More importantly, these ads are really only reaching old people. There is an entire demograph (18-35 year old males) is almost invisible to every statistical research company (Harris Interactive, Gallup, and especially Nielsen). Nobody knows how these people will vote.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2004 20:55      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
GM you keep on mentioning the apocalyptic consequences were Kerry the antichrist to be elected President, and repeating the line about his voting record that is being hammered by Bush's TV adverts.
Never called him an antichrist.

I have heard those adverts and I don't even live in the US, so I doubt that any of us need those argument repeated.
Because it is important that people realize that no one has a clue where he really stands. You must know a canidate before voting for him, and I fear people will just vote "anti-Bush" and vote a fickle man with no clear stance....

For what little it's worth, I also happen to think that they are rather shallow. If raking around the minutiae of someone's voting record is the best the Bush campaign can do they must be running scared, and rather short of ammunition.
Huh? Shallow? What bills he voted for and which he voted against are the only clear indicator of what he really believes. I've listed a few links above, but you can see the whole voting record of any congressman, senator and even Pres. Bush at http://www.vote-smart.org ... Voting records display peoples reals position and should have more barring on a voter than if they guy has nice hair, does/doesn't sling mud or almost anything else. It is about the issues, funny how people usally complain about politicians ignoring the issues.

You should really not be surprised when someone in the party not in government votes against the government.
He's not voting against government, he's voting the opisite of what he says he's for. The only place I see them matching is on the tax cuts. You'll notice he often even votes to the left of Ted Kenedy.

I view 4 more years of GWB with equal if not greater trepidation. I hate to imagine what the state of the world could be after another term of this charming but disastrous president.
Look at the what he passed, and what he vetoed and look at kerrys record, you'll be suprrised how alike they really are. Only when it comes to the race does it sound like they are on opisite sides of the spectrum.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2004 21:02      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
GM: If you are so pro war, why don't you sign up so you can go over to Iraq and kill some babies too?

I've always said that something should be done, but never thought war was the right answer. I'm not pro-war, I'm anti the alternitive... How many Iraqi people were found dead in mass graves -- how many a year did Sadam kill and how many would he have killed if not removed from power? How many have died in the war? I wish other avenues had proved more fruitful. While the ends don't justify the means, I still feel that this world is better off Sadam out of power.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 31, 2004 21:12      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
Because it is important that people realize that no one has a clue where he really stands. You must know a canidate before voting for him, and I fear people will just vote "anti-Bush" and vote a fickle man with no clear stance....

GWB is doing almost the exact opposite of what he said he'd do before the election. Remember, GWB was dead against 'foreign entanglements' and promised to reduce american involvement in far-off conflicts.

Of course, GWB argues that everything changed in September 2001, and fair enough. (although we now know he was looking for an excuse to invade Iraq before September 11)

So why isn't Kery allowed to change his position on issues as circumstances change?

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 03:05      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I originally started this thread to try and tease out what people thought about where we should go from here and what shape this "war" might take over the next few years. Clearly we seem as divided as ever over whether the Iraq campaign was justified, and whether it has left the world a safer place, and I also doubt that anyone is going to be enlightened by dragging out this discussion of the depressingly negative presidential campaign.

However I would be interested to know GM, what you think the next phase of the "war" should be. Do you agree with the neo conservatives, who seem to be providing the ideological backbone of this administration, that America as the global superpower has a historic mission to spread democracy around the globe, and that accusations of empire building is something the US should not worry about, and indeed if empire means increasing the amount of freedom and democracy around the world, it is good thing?

I am sure that you will gather from my previous posts that this prospect fills me with horror, but would like to hear your take on it nonetheless.

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nekomatic
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Icon 2 posted April 01, 2004 04:37      Profile for nekomatic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If it was a "historic mission to spread democracy around the globe" I might not be so worried about it - it's the historic mission to spread the unregulated free market around the globe, and get US companies in there first, that I have trouble with...
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 07:26      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You are Right! I was Wrong but now I Have Seen the Light and I will go forth and praise The Conservatives who are The Only Ones Telling the Truth in this Time of Global Crisis!!

Saddam Bin Ladin had To Be Stopped because he Killed People! And the United States had to Be The One Who Stopped Him because we were the Ones Who Armed him in The first Place!

It's all So Clear to me now! So every Time a Gay Couple Gets Married, we must Protest The Destruction of Family Values! Gays can't Be Families!!

And every Time a Dark-Skinned Person enters an Airport where Rich White People are trying to go about their Republican-Approved Lifestyles of Buying Expensive Things, we must at all costs prevent the Rich White People from being in any Danger Whatsoever!! And that means we Have To arrest the Muslims and Other Middle Eastern People! They're Dangerous and they have Bombs in Their Tennis Shoes that they could Ignite!!

And we must Empower Law Enforcement to Do Whatever It Takes to make Sure that there is No Possibility of a Crime Ever Being Committed, Not Ever, Not even a Tiny Little Chance!! We need More Wiretaps, and we need To Go Back to Outlawing Cryptography because Criminals Won't Use it if It's outlawed! And we need Palladium in every Computer so People can't Write Viruses or Steal Songs! I'm going to Write to my Governor and Ask Him to Pass the PATRIOT III act right Now!

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 08:53      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
April Fool's, greycat?

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csk

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Icon 14 posted April 01, 2004 09:00      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Damn, greycat, that's the best style parody I've seen on GC.

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 09:21      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
However I would be interested to know GM, what you think the next phase of the "war" should be.

This war should end with the arrest of the people employed by Sadam to kill, rape and pilage. This war is nearing it's end. In my opinion we do need to begin to deal with Saudi, China, Lybia and the like; but, I hope that they don't require military actions.

quote:
Do you agree with the neo conservatives, who seem to be providing the ideological backbone of this administration, that America as the global superpower has a historic mission to spread democracy around the globe, and that accusations of empire building is something the US should not worry about,
I'm not a neo-republican. I will not vote a straight party ticket unless I honestly believe in each canidate and what they voted for.

Has nothing to do with the spread of democracy... The issue has nothing to do with what form of government they use, it has to with basic human rights. As long as the means are as just and moral as they can be, and the ends is less loss of life than if we do nothing; then, people of the world will see that the US isn't bent on creating a global empire.

quote:
and indeed if empire means increasing the amount of freedom and democracy around the world, it is good thing?
The building of a USian Empire would not be a good thing. The US federal government has too much power over the states already, the last thing we should do is try to conquor any lands. I'm not arguing we inforce our government or systems of government that we favor on countries that we free.
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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 09:33      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So why isn't Kery allowed to change his position on issues as circumstances change?

What changed? Nothing, except now he's running for president and he couldn't attack Bushes "war" if he still believed in it. A man has a right to change his mind, but when asked about his change in position he says that he was "duped by Bush" and then goes on to insult Bush's intellect. Well, if Bush is that stupid, then isn't't Mr.Kerry a complete moron for buying into it? -- No, I don't think you were duped, I think you realized that you needed he left's vote and so he changed his tune. The odd thing about his tune is that he doesn't present any clear vission of what he thinks we should do in its place. I think this Kerry quote makes sums up his political stance:
"I voted for it, before I voted against it."

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 09:44      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
So why isn't Kery allowed to change his position on issues as circumstances change?

What changed?
Thats right, nothing changed....except the fact there are no WMD's and the 'intel' was completely manufactured to green light the invasion/occupation. [Roll Eyes]

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csk

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 09:46      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Spot on Cap'n Vic. It's all very 1984, ie "We have always been at war with Eurasia".

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 10:18      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Vic - The reason he says he's against the war is the lack of proper equipment (body armor) for the troops, but at the same time he voted against the suplement to the war that would have bought them new bodyarmor and such.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 11:03      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Whatever. I'm voting for Nader.

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 11:27      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
No, you are not. If you do that you'll be throwing your vote to the incumbent and I won't let you do that. [Razz]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 11:28      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
No, you are not. If you do that you'll be throwing your vote to the incumbent and I won't let you do that. [Razz]

And what will you do about it, eh? I guess you're right though - I should vote for the proud incumbent instead. George W. Bush is a good president, and I'm going to be sure to use my right as a US citizen to vote for him, so we can continue the good trend this country is in.

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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 2 posted April 01, 2004 11:33      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
No, you are not. If you do that you'll be throwing your vote to the incumbent and I won't let you do that. [Razz]

And what will you do about it, eh? I guess you're right though - I should vote for the proud incumbent instead. George W. Bush is a good president, and I'm going to be sure to use my right as a US citizen to vote for him, so we can continue the good trend this country is in.
Vote for Bush: after all, there are still a slew of countries to invade, and a few billion innocent people to kill
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 12:48      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
And what will you do about it, eh?

First I will nip your ankles. Then, I will leave something volatile and smelly on the door handles of Corlla-san. Last, I will train Talkeetna to attack anything with a beard taht comes through the door. [Razz]

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Flashfire
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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 13:03      Profile for Flashfire   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
quote:
Originally posted by dragonman97:
And what will you do about it, eh?

First I will nip your ankles. Then, I will leave something volatile and smelly on the door handles of Corlla-san. Last, I will train Talkeetna to attack anything with a beard taht comes through the door. [Razz]
Wow, you play rough, Xanthine!

Remind me to never piss off the lab rat, okay?

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eDJ
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A friend of mine emailed me that his letter to the editor was published in todays newspaper in his hometown. The fact that Bush will appear in the town Friday this week with April 1 occuring in the same week must simply have been too much irony for him to resist. [Wink]

quote:
President’s record speaks volumes

Let’s talk about President’s Bush record:

• $236 billion was the budget surplus in 2000 when President Clinton left office.

• $521 billion is the current estimated budget deficit -- the amount the United States will be in the red this year.

• 3 million private sector jobs lost during the three years of the Bush presidency -- and his staff says moving jobs overseas is a good thing.

• 8.3 million American unemployed in January 2004.

• 58 million acres of public land that Bush has opened to road building, logging and oil drilling. Campaign contributions pay off for this White House.

• 88 percent of Americans will save less than $100 on their 2006 taxes as a result of the 2003 Bush tax breaks for capital gains and dividends.

• Bush went before a dinner meeting of the Washington press corps and made fun of not finding any weapons of mass destruction in the Oval Office. Meanwhile, Walter Reed Hospital is full of young soldiers with limbs missing and their lives in ruin. This does not include the nearly 600 brought home in body bags.

On the last point....it was in the news that Bush made a joke of the WMD at the dinner. The news report went on to say that was basically the only joke he told. The punch line was that the fund raising dinner raised $1,000,000 dollars for his campaign for the election in November.

What is interesting to me is that this could be looked upon as a spoil of war if you stop and think about it. [ohwell]

eDJ

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 01, 2004 15:05      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
A man has a right to change his mind, but when asked about his change in position he says that he was "duped by Bush" and then goes on to insult Bush's intellect. Well, if Bush is that stupid, then isn't't Mr.Kerry a complete moron for buying into it?

On this we agree, you'd have to be a complete moron to be taken in by Bush's bullshit excuses for invading Iraq.

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nekomatic
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Icon 2 posted April 01, 2004 15:11      Profile for nekomatic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GameMaster:
I'm not arguing we inforce our government or systems of government that we favor on countries that we free.

Let me read that again slowly... huh? Either you're advocating anarchy, in the strictest sense of the word, or this statement is truly witless. You think the US should go around 'freeing' countries, i.e. removing their current regimes of government, and just walk away? Do you think some kind of canonically perfect system of government based on Kantian ethics is going to descend on these places out of the ether?

quote:
As long as the means are as just and moral as they can be, and the ends is less loss of life than if we do nothing; then, people of the world will see that the US isn't bent on creating a global empire.
If Iraq is supposed to be an example of this, you're not getting off to a great start, let me tell you.

quote:
In my opinion we do need to begin to deal with Saudi, China, Lybia and the like; but, I hope that they don't require military actions.
Yeah, I hope "dealing with" China doesn't require military action too. It might be a little trickier than Iraq what with them being the biggest country in the world and happening to possess nuclear weapons, don't you think?
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