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Author Topic: Annoyance
Mercury_Blue
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 05:03      Profile for Mercury_Blue     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
There are many things that annoy me in this world, but one of the things that *really* infuriates me is this current anti-christian wave. Now, I know there are these idiot people who say they are christian and look stoned 24/7 and hand out cheesy flyers, but people who have met those people automatically think all christians are like this. For example, my friends, (an atheist from germany, a semi-athiest from down the street, and my until recently christian literature geek friend) are suddenly extremely anti-christianity. They roll their eyes at anything that could be related to christianity, and I just sort of scoot away to a corner. Everybody is trying to change the Christian Church to fit their standards of political correctness. Well, I'm sorry, but no religion will ever be politically correct according to society's demands. My semi-athiest's christian church has a gay youth group leader, and before anybody flames me, I will explain my reasoning. The bible, the book on which christianity is based, CLEARLY states that homosexuality is a perversion of nature. I'm sorry if any bisexual or homosexual people are reading this, but I can't change the book my religion is based on. It cannot be done. This push for political correctness is also annoying. Replace it with common decency, I say, and everything will be fine. Ok, just needed to get that off my chest. *dons dragonscale flak jacket*

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 05:19      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think the Romans (initially) had the right idea towards Christians.

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littlefish
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 06:21      Profile for littlefish   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Could you back that up with facts? I'd like to see the passage in the bible where it says: Same sex intercourse is wrong. I know it says that man shall not lie down with man, but to me that sounds equally damning of bunk-beds. Also I'm fairly sure that sex before marriage is a bit more clearly condemned than gay sex.

I'm not anti christian per se, but it annoys me that people will use the bible as an argument behind anything. (And you can find a quote to support anything in the bible if you want- remember Samson commiting genocide with the jawbone of an ass?)

I read a great quote the other day:

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

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greycat

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Icon 8 posted February 06, 2004 06:28      Profile for greycat   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's a fucking book. It was written by a bunch of wackos thousands of years ago, in many different languages. If you interpret it literally, you're a moron.

That said, I know of some Christians for whom I have deep respect. They're the ones who take the meaning of the doctrine, instead of reading it word-by-word. Jesus said that we should love one another. That includes homosexuals. Why is this so fucking hard for some of you to grasp?

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 07:00      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
THe OT has a whole secton listing off offenses and the proper punishment. I think there's something along the lines of "Any man that lies with another man shall be put to death." Or maybe I'm getting that confused with the bestiality clause... :/

My answer to all this religious homophobia, especially among Christians, is wtf happened to all the "love they neighbor" business? My bet is Jesus would give that flamin youth group leader and say "It's okay, God loves you anyway."

But wtf do I know? I quit the whole religion thing when I was in HS. The mountains offer better solace for my soul.

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csk

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 08:13      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I feel your pain Mercury_Blue, it's not easy being a Christian in this day and age.

As for the homosexuality issue, here's my take. It is mentioned in the OT as people have said, but there are a whole lot of laws in the OT that are basically superceded now (eg garment constructed of more than one type of material = bad). No, I don't understand how to work out which ones still apply and which ones don't. You could also extrapolate from creation theology, but that's a less direct approach. Plus it may require literal creationism, which I think is pretty hard to justify, personally.

As for the NT, Paul writes in Romans about men and women abandoning relations with each other and being inflamed with lust for the same sex. So there's not much doubt where God stands, at least according to Paul.

The important issue is, let's assume the NT at least is right, and that God thinks that homosexuality is sinful. Does that give Christians a license to persecute homosexuals? Of course not. But given that the leaders are meant to be heading in the same direction as the organisation, wouldn't it make sense to not elect leaders (ie ministers) that disagree with what are regarded as fairly important tenets of the Christian faith? After all, if they really want to be in leadership in a church, there are plenty of churches these days that accept homosexual leaders, so why not tread the path of least resistance?

Finally, I'm particularly unhappy with the way that sexual issues/sins are treated with a special disdain by a lot of Christians. As far as God is concerned, sin is sin, and He hates it all, be it lying, murder, copyright infringement, whatever. To put it another way, there's no way that I'd let it be widely known in my church circles that I slept with my wife before I was married. I'm not proud of it, since I believe sex is reserved for marriage and all that, but I shouldn't have to hide things like that in case my reputation is damaged.

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hey-U
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 08:43      Profile for hey-U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
You're *ALL* gay, you godless heathen pinko commie faggots [Wink]
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spungo
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 08:47      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by hey-U:
You're *ALL* gay, you godless heathen pinko commie faggots [Wink]

Remember - you've got to spell it your all gay. [Wink]

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hey-U
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 08:58      Profile for hey-U     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I was worried about the grammar nazi's [crazy]
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Spoongirl
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Icon 2 posted February 06, 2004 09:00      Profile for Spoongirl     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
What kind of attitude is that to take!? When your holy text goes against what you believe (I truly hope for your sake you have nothing against gay/bi people) it's time to ditch that holy text. Isn't religion all about belief? How can you force your beliefs to conform to a few passages written millenia ago? Something not quite right about that...

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Kettle
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 09:10      Profile for Kettle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by greycat:
It's a fucking book. It was written by a bunch of wackos thousands of years ago, in many different languages. If you interpret it literally, you're a moron.

now I think that was abit harsh, it is a book, of everything that happened that many years ago. And most importantly about the Son of God (New Testament).

That said, I do thinkk the Bible should be 'Updated'. In those times people were marrying at 14/15 so Sex before marriage is respectable and also Homosexuality and Bisexuality is just as fair as Heterosexuality now, just like women have a say (end of sexism) so should gays...

I am a Christian, confirmed by the CofE. I will stand up for my views, I beleive in them. But your opinion is just as important and I respect that.

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Beth
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 09:16      Profile for Beth   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ooooh! Religion! This could be fun... [evil]

I come from a very religious town, real "bible belt" stuff. More churches per capita than any other town or city in our province, or something. Anyway, I've heard every single argument for/against homosexuality from the bible. The thing that bothers me is that a lot of people from my hometown are willing to be openly homophobic, and yet they wouldn't dream of saying to a Buddhist (for example), "You're a sinner and you're going to hell if you don't follow my God!" Why is it okay to say that to a gay person, then?

You can interpret the Bible in pretty much any way you want. That's why there are so many different streams of Christianity; everyone has a different translation, a different interpretation, a different insight, a different idea on how things should be done. In my old church, women aren't allowed to be leaders: not pastors, not Sunday school teachers, etc. In my mum's church right across the street, the pastor is a woman. Both churches believe in the same God and believe in the same Bible, they just have seperate ideas on how to go about it.

My father's a wiccan, and he believes in one rule: "An' it harm none, do as ye will." That pretty much sums things up nicely, I think. If it isn't going to hurt anyone - and "anyone" includes friends, family, strangers, yourself, the environment, etc - go for it. Makes sense to me.. [Smile]

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 09:26      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Spoongirl:
What kind of attitude is that to take!? When your holy text goes against what you believe (I truly hope for your sake you have nothing against gay/bi people) it's time to ditch that holy text. Isn't religion all about belief? How can you force your beliefs to conform to a few passages written millenia ago? Something not quite right about that...

Well, every once in a great while it happens...Spoongirl, I very much agree with you. Nicely said [Smile] . (On second reading, the comment "ditching the holy text" might be a bit extreme, but otherwise 'tis quite alright [Razz] .)

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GameMaster
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 09:28      Profile for GameMaster   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I would also like to add that the bible has been assembled by leaders of the faith in a time when being a member of clergy granted you great power. Many important writings, including the few scriptures Jesus (yes, he lived... if he was son of god is another matter) wrote. The book, being assembled of many people's "vissions" and recolections, is whole inconsistent by it's very nature. Moreover, why are the writting of these prophets more important than the other prophets of the muslim faith (which like the NT to TO, were written based upon the NT) or the book of mormon or...

I believe you have the right to believe what ever you want to believe, but if you try to convince me of your faith, I will try to convince you of it's inconsistancies. For example, if your Christian and a literalist, but not Catholic your going against Christ's appointment of the first Pope and the infailability of the Pope. If you follow the bible literally and all the beliefes and interprations that the Church hold are always correct then you had to believe in a model of the solar system that included angels pushing glass sheres arround the stationary Earth, and also that all things fall at different rates based on their weight, at least up until the mid to late 90's.

If you aren't a literalist, then I would offer some of the places that bible is mistranslated and suggest the possibility a flaw has slipped into the interpretations of the passages that concern said topic. The KJV of the NT says "suffer not a witch to live," in such a case I offer you a soward to cut my head from body. But, the original hebrew has two different possible meanings, as the literal traslation would read something like "suffer not one who casts/throws herbs/plants to live" which could also mean the people who are wasteful of food or people who litter. In fact I have seen other translations present the same line of hebrew as "suffer not a polluter to live."

The real question I have is why do believe what you believe? Is it because you were told that "that's the way it is" or is there a logical reason or personally spirtual behind it. One of the reasons that a lot of people are turning fom the church is because of the hypocracy of the clergy, in consistancy of the modern doctrine and the brain washing of the young. Most of the people who went to sunday school learned early on that you aren't allowed to question certian tenets of religon and get an offical answer that makes sence, but instead get "you have to have faith." I don't need to have faith to know that if I drop two objects of same size and shape but different masses from equal height, that they will hit the ground at the same time. I have seen enough in my experience to believe in a higher power, but to claim that power is a judgemental man with nothing better to do than condemn people who don't believe in his exsistance exsactly as he (supposedly) dictated to moses and people who are perfectly moral but happen to have feelings for the same sex. I cannot believe that a all powerful, all knowing and all seeing diety would have any reason to give a rats ass about if I "believe in him" or not. Such a thing is too petty for a "loving god" and more akin to the typical picture painted of a devil.

That being said, if you want to live your life in needless fear, or require such beliefs to keep your actions moral, then that is your perogative, but don't try and sell me any, thanks.

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spungo
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 09:42      Profile for spungo     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Beth:
If it isn't going to hurt anyone - and "anyone" includes friends, family, strangers, yourself, the environment, etc - go for it.

I like that. It has a very Stallmanist ring to it, i.e., you can do what you like as long as you don't restrict the rights of anyone else doing exactly what they like. Sort of a GNU testament, if you like. [Roll Eyes]

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Kettle
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 09:45      Profile for Kettle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They can turn away from the Church whenevertey please, but trying to bring other people away from the Church is wrong, or having an atheaist friend, saying how bad the Church is...or vice versa is also wrong, I have a friend who like me) was brought up a Christian, after we were both 12 our parents stood down and letus choose our own way, we both choose to stay, now his anti-Christian friends have stoppedhis fath purely because he is embarrased to be Christian around them.

The way I see it is that many people turning anti-Christian is not wrong, but them pulling Christians away is the bad deed in this time.

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Jace Raven

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 10:15      Profile for Jace Raven         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I would also like to add that the bible has been assembled by leaders of the faith in a time when being a member of clergy granted you great power. Many important writings, including the few scriptures Jesus (yes, he lived... if he was son of god is another matter) wrote. The book, being assembled of many people's "vissions" and recolections, is whole inconsistent by it's very nature. Moreover, why are the writting of these prophets more important than the other prophets of the muslim faith (which like the NT to TO, were written based upon the NT) or the book of mormon or...

What bothers me is the fact that a lot of people take the bible to be the word of God, or Jesus. There is something that needs to be kept in mind here. The bible was not written by God or Jesus. It is mearly a compilation of stories written by people who were to have known him, Jesus that is.

With that said, unless they had someone there writing everything that the Man said, anything in the bible has the posibility to be inaccurate in accordance to the way people think. Most people wont remember the exact words that a person says, but will translate it into text that will better suit their needs and allow them to remember what is going on (that is why when you are teaching something new to some one, you always try and relate it to something they already know.) So in the translation between spoken word and remembered word, there is always going to be a degree of inaccuracy. They from remembered to written, you are still going to have a degree of inaccuracy.
For example; I may say "I say what I mean and I mean what I say" but you may remember it as "I say what I mean to say." Though in this example there wasn't much lost in meaning, it can be catostrophic with some statements.

With the previous point in statement, i can procede:

I try not to think too much about the individual testimonies of each of the books of the bible but i try and see past the awe of the writers and look at the journey that Jesus had taken (only true with the NT). There is not proof that Jesus was some holy figure, just an extrodionary gentleman and I like to study extrodionary people as they all have something to teach us. But to live your life by the word of a book that outlines his every moment alive (minus those years before he came to be) is just plain wrong. I dont consider my self a Christian, by birth i am a Roman Catholic, but by choice i just belive that i can always better myself.</rant></to be taken lightly>

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 10:21      Profile for iDrifter     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Fundamentalist in any religious stripe give religion a bad name.
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God
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Icon 2 posted February 06, 2004 10:31      Profile for God         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mercury_Blue:
The bible, the book on which christianity is based, CLEARLY states that homosexuality is a perversion of nature.

I never said that. [shake head]

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Kettle
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 10:39      Profile for Kettle   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
What bothers me is the fact that a lot of people take the bible to be the word of God, or Jesus. There is something that needs to be kept in mind here. The bible was not written by God or Jesus. It is mearly a compilation of stories written by people who were to have known him, Jesus that is.

Nah thats just the New Testament.

But yes, it is only stories by different people. The Bible is a complemation of many differents, 'things'. From poetry (Psalms) to Gospels (Matt, Mark, Luke, John). It is not the word of the lord.
Also the Bible is not the center of Christiananity, as many people think it is, the center is Faith. The Faith that any beleiver needs to have in the fact that it is real.
Without Faith you have no religion, IMOHO you can have anybody, from bisexuals to poofs, from sluts to stoners, can be a Christian if they truely have Faith.
Nobody is perfect, you cannot follow the laws in the Bible fully, God even says that its impossible for us to do this and He excepts that.
So wheather its by being gey or having sex before marriage, that is one thing bad (plus there will be others) and it is ok to do that.
If you have Faith you are Christian, you don't need to be perfect, you dpn't need to have read the Bible and quote verses (Dot Cotton, Eastenders [Razz] ).

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Icon 3 posted February 06, 2004 11:00      Profile for MTB Babe   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
My semi-athiest's christian church has a gay youth group leader, and before anybody flames me, I will explain my reasoning.
Speaking of flaming, I think its great that a Minnesota's legalizing gay marriage.
As far as christianity is concerned, I believe it focuses far to much on pleasing some vague idea of a deity than what is beneficial for humankind. I remember that as I was being raised as a christian, it was pummeled again and again in my young brain that no good comes from humankind, only from 'god'; in fact, all that is bad is based in human beings.
Humanity, I believe, deserves a lot more credit than that. I have to side with Xanthine, as far as religious solace goes: I find my purpose and much benefit from the outdoors.

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Stibbons
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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 11:38      Profile for Stibbons   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ok, as an evangelistic atheist I have to throw this flame-bait out: The Skeptics Annotated Bible

I'm not anti-Christian (my entire family are Christians, and some of my best friends are), but I'm anti-organised-religion-in-general. Religions have some good ideas (such as the commandments - no theiving, killing, etc), but then dress them up in so much (in my view) crap that people can interpret them as they like, and that leads to all the intolerance and in-fighting. Why do you need to have to have the Heaven-v-Hell threat of the afterlife to just be generally nice to people?

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 12:57      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Everythng I need to know about God, I learned here

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 13:11      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mercury_Blue:
I can't change the book my religion is based on. It cannot be done.

Well then, you should do 2 things...

1. Stay away from women, because only virgins go to heaven

2. Encourage others to sin, because there's only 144,000 tickets to heaven, so you need to improve your odds.

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Icon 1 posted February 06, 2004 13:22      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Pull the wool over your own eyes and believe in Bob. [Razz]
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