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Author Topic: So does this constitute Treason
TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2010 09:37      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ I have an opinion, but will hold on to it for a while.

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Afghan_War_Diary,_2004-2010

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Aditu
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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2010 10:41      Profile for Aditu     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Must admit that it took me back to the debates in regard to the Pentagon Papers, but that does show my age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagon_Papers

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2010 11:20      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I also have to think about this a bit. In my mind, the release of the pentagon papers, did america more good, than harm ( and harm was done). But these new papers , so I have read, are not a profound as the pentagon papers. The congress was not being openly lied to to prolong a war.

It does compile a rather grim list thoguh of civilian casualties.

now in this age, people are talking abouthow mauch harm will be done. And one does have to take into account that the enemy could use this information to help them kill americans.

The question is, in the long run, will relesing these papers make americans safer. I think the pentagon papers release made americans safer.

Maybe we will only know in 20 years , when we have 20/20 hind-sight, if this made americans less safe or more safe.

It is very difficult to know. Especially us citizens who do not have a complete picture.

I must say, I do not in any way take the position of poindexter from catch 22. What is good for the military is not nessesary what is good for the US.

by the way, I do believe it is unequivicolly treason, as the pentagon papers were, but that doesn't mean one is not a patriot.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2010 11:46      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ I will weigh in now, if by releasing this data, one soldier or agent had their cover blown, outed. If I was his platoon leader, he would not come back from the next patrol, who ever let wiki-leaks have this info is the lowest form of pond scum. Units in battle cannot be looking over their shoulders to see who may be blogging about the days adventure, you have to have unit trust.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2010 13:22      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
but it wasn't leaked by some one on patrol, it was leaked by an office desk jockey listening to lady gaga.

maybe this data will lead to soldiers being killed by the enemy, we don't know.

Maybe this data will lead to the US pulling out of afganistan saving lives, we don't know.

The talking heads can discuss what this mean until they are blue in the face, unfortunately we will not know the consequences until they have long occured.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 28, 2010 21:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's all happened before

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted July 29, 2010 02:26      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It seems to me that either Bradly Manning was extremely dumb in leaking the documents in that he didn't really try to be anonymous or that he was set up by someone.

If he wanted to be anonymous, why contact a person per chat saying you want to leak Secret documents; using a handle with part of your real name and part of your birthdate in it.

And if he didn't want to be anonymous, why not just realease the documents himself and take credit.

It just doesn't add up

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 29, 2010 04:15      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Well he has not had his Courts Marshal yet.

____ It may turn out that he was set up, or very stupid.

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zorgon
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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2010 09:12      Profile for zorgon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hey tell you what. You can charge Manning with treason if you also charge Dick Cheney and all his cronies with treason (for revealing the identity of a secret CIA operative in the field), too. No? Well, fuck that. I'm sick of seeing only the little guys punished for the failings of their superiors, while those guys go off scot-free. During the Nuremburg tribunals Allied prosecutors (successfully) argued that generals whose subordinates committed atrocities were responsible for the atrocities and subject to punishment even if they gave no orders and were unaware the atrocities occurred. Now, however, oh noooo, that doesn't apply to ussss ... hypocrites. And they deserve every bit of embarrassment this sort of thing causes them and more.
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 04, 2010 11:07      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zorgon:
Hey tell you what. You can charge Manning with treason if you also charge Dick Cheney and all his cronies with treason (for revealing the identity of a secret CIA operative in the field), too.

[Applause] [Applause] [Applause]

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2010 10:23      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ To me this as bad as leaking the documents, you do not trample on Citizens rights.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-27080_3-20012253-245.html

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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2010 11:20      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The customs and border patrol people see themselves as above/outside the law. They can do anything, or so they believe. Not cool.

I personally have very mixed feelings about Wikileaks. On one hand, the truth should be told. On the other, the release of documents pertaining to a war in progress could get people killed and some of that blood will be on the hands of Wikileaks and their sources. And it is treason to pass state secrets to the enemy...which is effectively what happens when information like that is posted on a public website.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2010 13:33      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Again the two edged sword, Free Press, The Soldiers life, I know how I come down.

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quantumfluff
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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2010 18:31      Profile for quantumfluff     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's not really a two edge sword - it is going to be very one edged as every Afghan who is named as a collaborator is marked for death by the Taliban. Leaking these documents didn't add to the common knowledge on this side of the war, but it did condemn a lot of allies to death. Treason or not, it show sociopathic disregard for human life.
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Xanthine

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Icon 1 posted August 05, 2010 23:30      Profile for Xanthine     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Keeping classified stuff classified isn't really a freedom of the press issue. The press has a code of ethics and a lot of discretion over what it goes on the record , but generally speaking, the press will publish a leak because that's what it does. It should be noted, however, that reporters don't go to jail for what they've reported (refusing to name a source is another matter). The man who leaked the info, OTOH, can and should go to jail. And he should be made to learn the names of every single Afghan who dies because of his act.

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And it's one, two, three / On the wrong side of the lee / What were you meant for? / What were you meant for?
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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2010 07:29      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Xanthine:
Keeping classified stuff classified isn't really a freedom of the press issue. The press has a code of ethics and a lot of discretion over what it goes on the record , but generally speaking, the press will publish a leak because that's what it does.

True, though I think the carelessness and laziness shown by not caring to remove the names of those who could be harmed as a direct result does show a distinct lack of ethics.

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zorgon
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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2010 09:02      Profile for zorgon     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you charge this kid with treason you also have to charge former Vice President Cheney and his cronies with the same thing for revealing the identity of a secret CIA operative in the field.
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2010 10:31      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zorgon:
If you charge this kid with treason you also have to charge former Vice President Cheney and his cronies with the same thing for revealing the identity of a secret CIA operative in the field.

you already said that.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted August 06, 2010 12:17      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ It is a matter of scale, V. Plame, is still alive, we do not know about the afghan agents. How many have or will die because this man acted as he did.

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If it don't glow it ain't Ham Radio

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