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Author Topic: Sudden Acceleration, Part Deux
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 10:27      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Guess what?

Stupid people are stupid.

The U.S. Department of Transportation has analyzed dozens of data recorders from Toyota Motor Corp. vehicles involved in accidents blamed on sudden acceleration and found that the throttles were wide open and the brakes weren't engaged at the time of the crash, people familiar with the findings said.

The early results suggest that some drivers who said their Toyotas and Lexuses surged out of control were mistakenly flooring the accelerator when they intended to jam on the brakes.


To be fair, the problem with the floor mats that Toyota found, admitted to and recalled vehicles for wasn't eliminated. But cosmic rays and faulty computer code and all the other BS are looking pretty unlikely.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 11:19      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ GrumpySteen, While NHTSA may be in Toyoda's corner. There are some reports that would not fit so well.

____ Some people reported that their Cruise Control light came on!

____ The landscape contractor that drove his truck to the dealer, by N/Drive then shutting it off, only to have it work correctly.

____ Also every company stores the event data differently, it was orginally only to be accessed after an accident that the air bags failed to deploy.

____ The event data recorders were not ever to be used as Flight Data recorders.

____ It is not like turning on trace in Basic.

____ You could buy a Davis Car Chip. They are Flight Data Recorders, and will give you minute by minute readouts.

____ When it come to RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) Toyoda cars and trucks are the worst spoilers of the ham bands.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 11:56      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So you believe that not only did the computer fail and cause the car to accelerate at full velocity, the recording device failed at exactly the same time in precisely the way necessary to cause it to record the gas pedal being fully depressed while still recording everything else accurately?

And, furthermore, that defective products fail based on the user's age?

It really seems more reasonable to you to believe all that rather than to believe some idiots hit the gas instead of the brakes (which there are many, many documented cases of throughout the history of automobiles, I might add)?

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 13:03      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ Please reread each and every answer. Event recorders were installed to protect the car maker, in the case of an Air Bag failure they were never intended to be FLIGHT DATA RECORDERS. Yes Young and old can become confused and stomp on the throttle.

____ I Included the note about the Cruise Control because the lady had not turned it ON. There was no crash involved, she sold the car.

____ The Land Scape Contractor had three events no crash, he once got the vehicle to the dealer, wide open throttle by using drive/ neutral and the brakes. When they shut it off it restarted normally and did not misbehave on a test drive.

____ I have dealt with Toyota parts buyers when they came to our Air Cleaner plant, Price was their point, not quality/ PRICE POINT.

____ The event recorder records wheel speed, from the ABS, Brakes from the brake light circuit, throttle position, and what accelerometer blew the bag.

____ If you want a Flight Data Recorder, you can go out and buy a Davis Car Chip, it is a Flight Data Recorder, not trying to look back through the emissions control data of the Engine Control Module. The ECM only cares about smog prevention not what caused a wreck.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 14:50      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by GrumpySteen:
So you believe that not only did the computer fail and cause the car to accelerate at full velocity, the recording device failed at exactly the same time in precisely the way necessary to cause it to record the gas pedal being fully depressed while still recording everything else accurately?

That sounds entirely plausible to me.

Some glitch in the hardware/software causes the accelerator pedal position to be mis-read, and the rest follows naturally from there. The data recorder shows what the computer thinks it saw.

That said, the graph of age distribution of drivers who reported this problem supports your 'Occams' razor' explanation.

There was an incident at this years Anzac Day (merkins: read 'Veterans Day') parade, where a WWII army truck drove into a group of marching veterans. The elderly driver claimed the accelerator got stuck, but amateur video of the incident showed the driver with both hands off the wheel, taking a photo out his side window.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 16:37      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ TFD, I worked for thirty two years in the Automobile industry, along side Emission, air Induction, and Exhaust system engineers. There was nothing we could do to improve "The nut that holds the steering wheel."

____ As to "SA" of all the reported incidents 90+% are Driver Error, the rest are some defect.

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Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 17:26      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Looking back, I see I failed to make clear one of the main points in my post.

The problem I see is that, to do what the people have described, you have to have two very unlikely failures at precisely the same time.

First, the computer has to mis-read the position of the gas pedal, interpreting it as being fully pressed to the floor.

Second, the computer has to mis-read the position of the brake pedal, interpreting it as not being pressed at all despite the driver having it pressed fully to the floor.

And both of these unlikely errors with the computer have to occur at precisely the same time and at no other time.

Drivers aren't reporting that the car accelerates on it's own, but the brakes worked just fine, nor are they reporting that the brakes are completely failing to respond at any other time. It's only the magical combination of a driver slamming their foot all the way down to the floor on the brake pedal that causes the accelerator to be read as slammed fully to the floor and the brakes not being touched.

The fact that it happens far more often to old and young drivers just adds another layer of impossibility to it.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 18:06      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ 1971-2 Chevrolet had a similar failure, that was really caused by a motor mount design fault.

____ Audi bunch of bad press, pedal placement. Location on the floor.

____ Toyota, driver error much as Audi.

____ Mat entrapment, and bad bushings.

____ I did bring up Cruise Control for a reason, that circuit over rides the two potentiometers when the value exceeds the preset throttle position. Then the servo is supposed to match the pedal until its position falls below set point. The brake light circuit is supposed to put the engine throttle control back to the pedal. On hydroboost cars that would not be a problem because more engine revs more hydroboost, on vacuboost wide open throttle loss of braking.

____ Before my indenture, I worked at a truck brake shop, when you pull the wheels you will know if the brakes had been over used to failure.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted July 14, 2010 21:40      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not for nothing, but on my Toyota, if your cruise control is in use, pressing the brakes immediately disengages cruise control.

Also, the cruise control light on the dashboard has no bearing on whether or not it is actively in use - the button to turn it on/off is on the end of a small control stalk (which could be turned on somewhat without thinking). However, it must then be actually set to be used by hitting the stalk upwards. Again, it can be disengaged by pulling it towards you, hitting the button at the end, or using the brakes.

I'm very glad to see this data coming from the gov't, as it may start to put some of the pandemonium to rest. Toyota is not entirely faultless here, but this certainly meshes pretty nicely with reality (read: Occam's Razor).

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted July 15, 2010 03:34      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
____ dragonman97, That is good. Prior to Cruise Control there were hand throttle kits, much like the throttle on lawn mowers and rototillers. Those of you that have been in the cockpit of an airplane will know what the throttle looks like and how it works. Very early cars and trucks had hand throttles that were not canceled by the brakes.

____ My point with the Cruise Control is if the operator did not turn it on or engage it, why did the light come on? On my truck, if the light is on it can be set. On our van and our motor home if the light is on, it has a set speed defined and resume will work. I do not expect the light to be on if I have not done those actions.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted August 29, 2011 03:51      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So I own a toyota (2002, MR2) and last night I had a instance of unwanted sudden acceleration.

The story:

I was driving. I shifted into fourth and all of a sudden my engine is revving like crazy. I thougt I had put it into second.But no, I hadn't. I Immediantly let off the gas with no change. I pushed the clutch in and left it in and the engine revved to 7500 and stayed there. I pulled the car over to the side of the road, came to a complete stop and the engine was still revving to 7500. It was only when I turned the key that the engine stopped.

I drove home slowely with no problems.

hmmm

If this was a similar case of unwanted sudden acceleration it does prove it is a copletely hadleable situation. putting the car in nuetral solves the problem of unwanted acceleration immediatly.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted August 29, 2011 09:35      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The guy that said his car was running away on the highway and couldn't be stopped refused to shift into neutral. He claimed he couldn't shift to neutral because he was afraid it would damage the transmission in some way (because, you know, transmission damage is more important to avoid than dying).

He also told several blatant lies in his stories to both the media and the police but, of course, nobody would lie about their fear of damaging their transmission, right?

(there are a lot more details that indicate that he was trying to profit on the sudden acceleration hysteria, but it's not worth rehashing them)

Most of the other sudden accelerations were either reported to be ended uneventfully or came to a quick end when the person hit the wall/car/garage door/whatever that was in front of them when they suddenly accelerated into or out of a parking space.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2011 12:19      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-toyota-electronics-design-flaw-causes-sudden-acceleration-video.html

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2011 13:00      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Hi Moman.

Have you been ok for the last two months or so?

Here is a telling but fromt he article

quote:
In order to recreate the issues for ABC News, however, Gilbert utilized an external bypass system that he says will recreate conditions otherwise possible without any outside devices.
In other words, this professor was able to make a toyaota accelerate out of control by hooking an electrcal device into the car designed to make the car accelerate.

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2011 13:07      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
Hi Moman.

Have you been ok for the last two months or so?

Here is a telling but fromt he article

quote:
In order to recreate the issues for ABC News, however, Gilbert utilized an external bypass system that he says will recreate conditions otherwise possible without any outside devices.
In other words, this professor was able to make a toyaota accelerate out of control by hooking an electrcal device into the car designed to make the car accelerate.
Wow...would that be anything like how a car accelerates when you put your foot on the gas pedal? [Wink] (Or how it doesn't accelerate when you only put your foot on the brake pedal?)

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2011 16:19      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/08/autos/nhtsa_nasa_toyota_final_report/index.htm

"An intensive 10 month investigation into possible causes of unintended acceleration in Toyota cars found no fault with the automaker's electronic throttle control systems"

"What mostly happened was pedal misapplication where the driver stepped on the gas instead of the brake or in addition to the brake,"

But hey... one attention-seeking professor who solders together a couple of wires that aren't supposed to be connected has surely done a better job of research than a team of scientists who spent nearly a year researching the problem, right? At least as long as his what he says confirms your own opinion, that is. Confirmation bias FTW.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 02, 2011 20:20      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-services/state-farm-found-toyota-problem-in-2007-us-government-did-nothing/6740

Believe what you want.

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Benjamin Franklin,

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted September 03, 2011 03:51      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by TheMoMan:
http://www.bnet.com/blog/financial-services/state-farm-found-toyota-problem-in-2007-us-government-did-nothing/6740

Believe what you want.

Yes,after looking at the evidance at hand, I believe the truth. even if there was a design flaw, there was nothing that caused acceleration, there is no reasn why these people lost control of their cars other than driver error.

The goverment did nothing because there was no design flaw with the toyotas. State farm had a bunch of customers who caused accidents and wanted to blame someone else, not believeing it could be thier own fault.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 04, 2011 00:24      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TheMoMan wrote
Believe what you want.

1) I believe correlation is not causation.

2) I believe skilled researchers are more likely to find the causes of a series of accidents than State Farm's bean counters who have no training in anything beyond accounting and statistics.

3) I believe that the article I linked points out that "Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota cars did spike whenever there was national publicity focused on the issue" but were no more severe than any other make of cars otherwise.

4) I believe that customers will lie to their insurance companies and say that their car accelerated on it's own in order to explain why their accident report says they were doing 45 in a 30 MPH zone.

5) I believe the article that you linked, with phrases like "lives were lost as Lexus models roared off cliffs", is poorly researched, full of hyperbole and was written by someone who, much like you, has already made up his mind that Toyota cars are defective death traps.


And the Lexus that "roared off a cliff"? It was a loaner vehicle from the dealership that was working on the guy's SUV. Specifically, a Lexus ES350. The floor mats, which were recovered from the wreck, were from a Lexus SUV and were not designed for use in the ES350. The floor mats are believed to have caused the accelerator to stick. The 911 call was released and at no point did the guy try to change gears to neutral.

The same loaner vehicle had previously had an incident of unintended acceleration with a different customer. That customer shifted into neutral, stopped the vehicle and found that the floor mat was causing the accelerator to stick. Shifting into neutral absolutely would have saved the other guy's life.

A tragedy, yes, but it has nothing to do with the design of the vehicle. If you want to blame anyone, blame the dealership that ignored the previous complaint and didn't change the floor mats in the vehicle.

But the author of the article you linked didn't bother to look up any of that information, did he? Of course not. He had an axe to grind.

And you didn't look any further either, did you. Of course not. You have an axe to grind. Anything that supports your belief must be true.

Confirmation bias FTW, indeed.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2011 10:08      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
UIA State farm


____ Pure Coincidence ____

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Benjamin Franklin,

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 08, 2011 16:44      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota cars did spike whenever there was national publicity focused on the issue"

Pure coincidence?

No.

(and no, Toyota's electronics don't have a subscription to the New York Times and didn't get excited about the media frenzy and decide to jump on the bandwagon and malfunction every time they saw a story)

A team of researchers investigated the reports that you're holding up as evidence. The finding, as reported in the article I linked?

"What mostly happened was pedal misapplication where the driver stepped on the gas instead of the brake or in addition to the brake,"

No matter how much you want electronics to have been the problem, it's been proven that they weren't.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 09, 2011 06:07      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
TIME FRAME PARADOX

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Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.


Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted September 09, 2011 09:24      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well, as long as we're making things up...

Clearly the problem was caused by the di-neutrino wave guide anti-simulating the multilifeform linear drive.

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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TheMoMan
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Icon 1 posted September 10, 2011 06:04      Profile for TheMoMan         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Senator Shelby got the whitewash he wanted.

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Benjamin Franklin,

Posts: 5848 | From: Just South of the Huron National Forest, in the water shed of the Rifle River | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
suregeek
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Icon 1 posted September 28, 2011 15:47      Profile for suregeek     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This Geek has some serious acceleration!!
http://www.suregeek.com/?p=46

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