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Author Topic: We'd love to give you the work but...
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2009 05:24      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you are self employed or a small business owner, you will recognise this - cue hollow laughter.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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fs

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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2009 06:40      Profile for fs   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Painfully true, Calli.

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I'm in ur database, makin' moar recordz.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2009 14:08      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Lovely.

Don't even get me started...

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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macmcseboy

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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2009 14:43      Profile for macmcseboy     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Um Yeah.. I see that a few times a week....

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Live long and prosper.

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Snaggy

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Icon 14 posted June 09, 2009 18:35      Profile for Snaggy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ditto all of the above!

ha ha especially the "show us how you did it, so we can do it on our own in house from now on."

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 09, 2009 21:21      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*grimaces*

I can feel your pain.
</billc>

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2009 01:31      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Painfully true.

I have one reply to that kind of shit "When you have the money to pay for my services, call me and if I'm available, we'll do a deal".

Next time, I think I'll just send them a link to the video.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2009 07:19      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
two things.

A) My boss has told me to try to buy things that were not bugeted for. I can't just go back to him and say, well I didn't even try. I felt thier pain when they said it wasn't budgeted for.

B) We live in a world were buying things has become black and white. Though, for most of human history things were bartered for and bargained for. Most people in the first world today are not used to this. There are places in the world were everything is bargained and bartered for, where you feel no shame going in and asking a rediculously low price for something because the guy behind the counter is going to start out wiht a rediculously high price. And you only buy when both parties feel happy with the price in the end. In the business world, not everything is black and white, fixed prices. Though, with the ease this creates at the supermarket, I can see why people do try to implement this with thier own businesses.

Try bargaining sometimes. It is real fun. (when the other party want to bargain that is.)

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2009 11:09      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
To Ash's remarks, I'll throw in my experiences:
a. The other bit of fun is buying things, and then having the finance people hold up payment. That's a sure way to start getting nag calls. :/

b. MSRPs are overrated. Most vendors usually 'find savings' when preparing quotes. Recently I had a vendor slash ~20% off the first price he quoted me. That came without much suggestion from me - I did point out that I had limited resources in this financial climate...but methinks his company is feeling a bit desperate for sales right now.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2009 13:27      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't have a problem with people driving a hard bargain over price (eg. the guy in the video store), that's just business, I do it myself when the occasion demands it.

It's the woman at the hairdresser ("Do the work now for free, and if I like it you might get some paying work later") and the couple in the restaurant ("we want to re-negotiate price after you've done the work") that really get up my nose.

Oh, and something the video missed, "Thanks for doing such a good job, we'll get around to paying you eventually, maybe some time next year". Some big aussie companies are notorious for doing this to small suppliers.

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If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Callipygous
BlabberMouth, a Blabber Odyssey
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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2009 16:29      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Ash I am unsure whether you made this post to be provocative, or out of ignorance. I suspect it may be a combination of the two. However to answer you:-

a. If something has not and cannot be budgeted for, it means that it is not important to the customer, and the project will almost always run into the sand at a later date. Never commence substantive work on anything without a purchase order. As often or not speculative work of this sort is a pet project of an individual, that has not actually been approved by the organisation, and you are just playing a bit part in their office politics.

b. Only rarely do you get any significant contract without pitching. Then if you win the pitch, you usually haggle on the price. We are all used to bargaining. That is very different to using a negotiating position that exploits or dupes the supplier, where there is no mutual respect. The supplier is always on a hiding to nothing if he accepts such terms. In particular if you are invited to do speculative work on a pilot project, even if it succeeds there will never be subsequent work to make it worthwhile for you. After all if you are so desperate, and enough of a mug to allow yourself to work for nothing, that must be your market value, and so you can't be much good at what you do. As I said before it's about mutual respect.

When you go freelance, or start your own business, you have the advantage of not being subject to office politics, or being unexpectedly sacked, but you also accept all the risk as well as the rewards of your business, and in times such as these, those risks are significant. In a recession your customers will cut back, and try to do as much in house as possible, and any work they do give out will come after tough bargaining with reduced margins. So you are walking a financial tightrope, and there are a few ruthless types who will try to prey on your ill disguised desperation to lure you into working for nothing, using lines like those in the video. They are not the kind of person that anyone should do business with, but I suppose there must be enough inexperienced and very desperate people, for these sharks to have some limited success.

There is another way. We have one client, a man in his seventies, who looks for competent trustworthy suppliers that he likes personally, and seeks to build long term relationships with them. He has for example had the same firm of lawyers for over 35 years. If the first job or two go well, he then tells you that he will always give you any work suitable for you that arises, he won't listen to any salesmen from your rivals, and he will not beat you down on price. In return he expects you always to give him your best price, and your best service. He is also reasonable when jobs go wrong, as occasionally happens to anyone, providing you are trying to learn from your mistake. If however he finds that you are in any way exploiting him, that's the last piece of work you'll get from him. He is also a very nice man. Unsurprisingly there are no lengths we will not go to for him. His methods have not been unsuccessful, he and his family are a regular feature on The Sunday Times Rich List.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 14, 2009 17:34      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
There is another way. We have one client... who looks for competent trustworthy suppliers that he likes personally, and seeks to build long term relationships with them...
...His methods have not been unsuccessful, he and his family are a regular feature on The Sunday Times Rich List.

Far too many 'sharks' don't understand the value of a good reputation, and long-term business relationships.

When I was a student, I had a job at a wine wholesaler. The standard practice at the time was for wineries to sell to wholesalers with invoices marked 'payable in 30 days' and then wait maybe 5 or 6 months for payment. The mob I worked for always paid their invoices on time.

The wine biz is notorious for variable, unreliable supply, glut one month, shortages the next. When there was a shortage, guess which wholesaler could always get supplies?

The one who paid on time.

Guess which wholesaler the retailers preferred to do business with?

The one who could guarantee supply.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 15, 2009 00:31      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
I don't have a problem with people driving a hard bargain over price (eg. the guy in the video store), that's just business, I do it myself when the occasion demands it.

It's the woman at the hairdresser ("Do the work now for free, and if I like it you might get some paying work later") and the couple in the restaurant ("we want to re-negotiate price after you've done the work") that really get up my nose.

Oh, and something the video missed, "Thanks for doing such a good job, we'll get around to paying you eventually, maybe some time next year". Some big aussie companies are notorious for doing this to small suppliers.

I agree entirely with these points. Once the work has started, good recieved, the price is set in stone.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 15, 2009 00:49      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
Ash I am unsure whether you made this post to be provocative, or out of ignorance. I suspect it may be a combination of the two. However to answer you:-

I posted this because I respectfully disagree with you and not to be provocative. I have never had my own business but I have experience with bargaining. Whether or not something is done out of ignorance cannot be in any case judged by the person doing the action.

quote:
a. If something has not and cannot be budgeted for, it means that it is not important to the customer, and the project will almost always run into the sand at a later date. Never commence substantive work on anything without a purchase order. As often or not speculative work of this sort is a pet project of an individual, that has not actually been approved by the organization, and you are just playing a bit part in their office politics.
I must budget for the next year , jan – dec, in November. Priorities change quickly. Something that may not be important this November, may be important in July 2010. Though I don’t know that at the time. Then I must be creative.

quote:
b. Only rarely do you get any significant contract without pitching. Then if you win the pitch, you usually haggle on the price. We are all used to bargaining. That is very different to using a negotiating position that exploits or dupes the supplier, where there is no mutual respect. The supplier is always on a hiding to nothing if he accepts such terms. In particular if you are invited to do speculative work on a pilot project, even if it succeeds there will never be subsequent work to make it worthwhile for you. After all if you are so desperate, and enough of a mug to allow yourself to work for nothing, that must be your market value, and so you can't be much good at what you do. As I said before it's about mutual respect.
I agree that there has to be mutual respect in bargaining.

quote:
When you go freelance, or start your own business, you have the advantage of not being subject to office politics, or being unexpectedly sacked, but you also accept all the risk as well as the rewards of your business, and in times such as these, those risks are significant. In a recession your customers will cut back, and try to do as much in house as possible, and any work they do give out will come after tough bargaining with reduced margins. So you are walking a financial tightrope, and there are a few ruthless types who will try to prey on your ill disguised desperation to lure you into working for nothing, using lines like those in the video. They are not the kind of person that anyone should do business with, but I suppose there must be enough inexperienced and very desperate people, for these sharks to have some limited success.
Working for free is noever a good Idea, but if you are joung and have no experience, working for little salary is a good way to get experience in a hard to enter field. In many cases it is expected. But as you don’t need experience, you cannot except experience as pay.

quote:
There is another way. We have one client, a man in his seventies, who looks for competent trustworthy suppliers that he likes personally, and seeks to build long term relationships with them. He has for example had the same firm of lawyers for over 35 years. If the first job or two go well, he then tells you that he will always give you any work suitable for you that arises, he won't listen to any salesmen from your rivals, and he will not beat you down on price. In return he expects you always to give him your best price, and your best service. He is also reasonable when jobs go wrong, as occasionally happens to anyone, providing you are trying to learn from your mistake. If however he finds that you are in any way exploiting him, that's the last piece of work you'll get from him. He is also a very nice man. Unsurprisingly there are no lengths we will not go to for him. His methods have not been unsuccessful, he and his family are a regular feature on The Sunday Times Rich List.
I have no problem with doing business in this wy. But it must be understood that most businesses do not function in this fashion. You often, in my case, have no chance to build relationships with suppliers. They are an unnamed unisex response in my e-mail box. We just have different experiences I guess.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2009 02:23      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now this is crossing the line as far as work/ compensation goes.

quote:
In an e-mail to all its staff, the airline offered workers between one and four weeks of unpaid leave -- but with the option to work during this period. British Airways employs just more than 40,000 people in the United Kingdom.


the article (CNN)

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

Posts: 3089 | From: Switzerland | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
dragonman97

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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2009 07:50      Profile for dragonman97   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
Now this is crossing the line as far as work/ compensation goes.

quote:
In an e-mail to all its staff, the airline offered workers between one and four weeks of unpaid leave -- but with the option to work during this period. British Airways employs just more than 40,000 people in the United Kingdom.


the article (CNN)
Oh...fsck that! Speaking as a salaried guy who already works unpaid overtime, that's completely unacceptable. Such folks should not be permitted to work if they're not getting paid. I know a colleague or two in civil service with bosses that are very strict about such things.

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There are three things you can be sure of in life: Death, taxes, and reading about fake illnesses online...

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted June 17, 2009 15:26      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I should contact that executive from BA, my lawn needs mowing, and my back fence is falling over...

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

Posts: 10680 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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