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Author Topic: Iran
schnurren
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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 14:26      Profile for schnurren     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM - I see the point that you are making that you feel that the UN is a corrupt institution and not trustworthy on the matter of Iraq because of dubious dealings.

That, as poignant of a point of is it, does not diminish the fact that as of yet, no WMD's were found in Iraq.

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 14:28      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
ASM is a 24 carat idiot

Callipygous, I demand that you defend the United Nations as worthy of:

1. Trust because of its Competence.

2. Trust because of its Lack of Corruption.

3. Trust because of its Dedication to Preserving "Human Rights" and Improving the "Human Condition."

Being a soup kitchen isn't "defense" for the above items, and neither is always having the US supply the vast majority of force to deter tyrants, petty "war lords", and other threats.

The United Nations is like a half a dozen drunken captains in the wheelhouse of a ship going full speed through a sea of icebergs.

quote:
In the Bosnian silver-mining town of Srebrenica in July 1995, one of the most notorious modern acts of genocide took place. While the international community and U.N. peacekeepers looked on, Serb forces separated civilian men from women and killed thousands of men en masse, or hunted them down in the forests.
Callipygous, since you claim to be much smarter than I am: Explain why anyone whose life is endangered by murderers should place any faith in the United Nations. (Hint: it's not because "Bush lied.")

Finally, I get involved in these threads when people use arguments like "It's horrible how the mean ol' US attacked that poor, peaceful, sweet Saddam" (and everyone knew Saddam was not a bad fellow because the UN said so ).

If anyone else is feeling "really smart," I've got some more questions about the United Nations that I would like to have answered. (Otherwise, quit posting "Bush lied" so I don't post "the UN is a support group for genocide anonymous.")

quote:
PS: His profile has a link to his site
[Wink] Still the same after six or seven years. (Read about the "incredibly dangerous" Fighting Canaries Virus.) PS: The Apple IIgs used the WDC 65816 processor, and "ASM" is a programming reference.

I'm bored, I'll bite.

The United Nations is not perfect. As far as I am concerned it is impossible for us flawed humans to make perfect things. It is better than the alternative though (no UN). Countries talk, instead of not talking. (This talk doesn't often go places but it's better than fighting.) So it's a bit currupt and alot's controlled by the US. It has failed on some occasions, but that takes us back to the human thing. I think you would have alot more respect for what the UN does if you were a sick child in africa or a starving man in south east asia and they helped you.

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 15:20      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I normally make a point of not reading his posts or replying to anything ASM says, but because I was quite truthfully insulting about him, this one time I will break my Trappist vow.

ASM your argument has never changed. It is that because Saddam is an evil man, and the UN Oil for food programme was plagued by corruption and bungling administration, any action taken by the US is justified, however stupid, or appalling the consequences.

That is a moronic argument.

The US involvement in Iraq, and the great (and at the moment endless) sacrifice of US and Iraqi lives there, can only be justified if you believe that you can install a stable benevolent government there, which will not collapse the moment the US withdraws its troops, leaving the country to subside back into the kind of factionalism, anarchy and civil war that only another totalitarian dictator or a brutal Islamic regime could put an end to. This is not rocket science. This is common sense, and what all recent world history would predict. I have heard no convincing arguments as to why events would pan out otherwise. It is very probable that this is another Vietnam. You are now becoming mired in another war you cannot win without destroying thing you are there to save, in a country whose people and culture you do not understand, and out of which only the Islamist extremists will be able to claim any victory. We may even just have to wait until enough US (and other) lives have been meaninglessly and pointlessly sacrificed, so that the bitter pill of humiliation and withdrawal becomes acceptable to the people that voted for GWB. That might take - ooh say another six years or so, and it will probably have to be a Republican who surrenders. How tragically stupid. This is my nightmare, but sadly it is not a remote possibility, but the most probable turn of events, whatever God has told your president. Those that do not learn from history are condemned to relive it.

I promise I am not going to read or reply to any further mad lectures you inflict on this or any other thread.

--------------------
"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 19:39      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Danimal:
Please attempt to pull your head out of your ass, and understand that when I make a verbal attack, it is very obvious that it is an attack. Mildly humorous sarcasm in a question is nothing more than me joking around.

I am always amazed by how easy it is to trigger an insult from people these days. Imagine the reaction I was actually trying to make an insult.

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted April 27, 2006 20:17      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Iskipped.

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I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 04:50      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Iignoredaltogether
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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 07:01      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Imstartingtocarelesstoo.

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted April 28, 2006 12:18      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
April 27, 2006 15:20
It is that because Saddam is an evil man, and the UN Oil for food programme was plagued by corruption and bungling administration, any action taken by the US is justified, however stupid, or appalling the consequences.

That is a moronic argument.

I promise I am not going to read or reply....

You said "Plagued by corruption" and you still don't understand why the US acted against "UN policies." [shake head]

The typical path of corruption is escalation: first shoplifting, then car theft, then bank robbery (as an analogy).

"No one" goes from an extreme criminal (like bank robbery and murder) back to only shoplifting candy bars.

In the case of the UN, after the first "Gulf War" (1991) there was probably little to accuse the UN of improper relations with Saddam. When the Oil for Food program began (1997) there was probably "some" unethical dealings. Six months before the current war in Iraq, the corruption was absolutely blatant.

If your own government was becoming more and more corrupt, "you would be afraid" (then again you might not care at all). Naturally, it would probably be "moronic" for you to do anything except watch the corruption grow.

UN resolutions are essentially meaningless now. By bribing UN officials (or UN member nations), any punitive UN action can stopped with "endless" debate, and if some punitive action is approved then bribes can be used to prevent enforcement. Why do you think Iran "defies" the UN with such blatant contempt? Does Iran's "contempt" for the UN promote peace? Are you surprised that the UN asks for permission from Sudan before considering a response to the ongoing murder in Darfur?

For you, August 2, 1990 provides the perfect example of "smart":

  1. Country invades and occupies neighboring country.
  2. UN talks, talks, talks......
  3. 168 days later, 550,000 American troops "liberate" the occupied country.

For the US, having to save everyone else all the time with our money isn't all that smart. Now if "your" country had to sacrifice its troops and billions of dollars to make Americans' lives easier, I could really support that as "smart."

quote:
From the Duelfer Report (Iraq Survey Group):

* The ISG judged that in March 2003, Iraq would have had the ability to produce large quantities of Sulfur Mustard in 3-6 months, and large quantities of nerve agent in 2 years.

* Iraq had an effective system for the procurement of items banned by sanctions

* Iraq's main goal was to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute WMD production.

After 12 years, the UN didn't eliminate Saddam's intent or ability to make "large quantities" of chemical weapons in less than six months, but you think it's "moronic" that the US would view Saddam as a serious threat and UN "diplomacy" as useless at best (FYI: the UN greatly helped Saddam). [shake head]

quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
... quit posting "Bush lied" so I don't post "the UN is a support group for genocide anonymous."



--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Grummash

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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 14:01      Profile for Grummash     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I'mnotlisteningI'mnotlisteningI'mnotlisteningI'mnotlistening..
...la la la la la la [crazy]

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...and yet, across the gulf of space, minds immeasurably superior to ours regarded this earth with envious eyes...

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GMx

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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 16:35      Profile for GMx     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
See post #2, page one. [Mad]
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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 16:52      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Iwonderwholetthatfsckingdogbackin

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 17:48      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Danimal wrote:
I am always amazed by how easy it is to trigger an insult from people these days. Imagine the reaction I was actually trying to make an insult.

That wasn't an insult, that was me rudely telling you that you didn't understand that what I had posted was humor and not abuse. A posting which, incidentally, was a question specifically for someone else. Curiosity demands that I inquire just why you felt the need to respond to something which clearly did not involve you. It's almost like the start of an obsession.

Anyway

For future comparison purposes, I can provide you with many fine examples of real insults if you wish. They can involve livestock, your ancestors, your potential for children, your anatomy... you name it. I have quite the vocabulary.

--------------------
Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted April 28, 2006 18:15      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Famous Druid:
Iwonderwholetthatfsckingdogbackin

Iwonderifhellevergetthehint
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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 06:31      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
quote:

After 12 years, the UN didn't eliminate Saddam's intent or ability to make "large quantities" of chemical weapons in less than six months, but you think it's "moronic" that the US would view Saddam as a serious threat and UN "diplomacy" as useless at best (FYI: the UN greatly helped Saddam). [shake head]

So if Iraq had the intent and ability to make lare quantities of chemical weapons. Where are they? Iraq could have had the intent and not the ability. Iraq could have had the ability and not the intent. Iraq couldn't have had the intent and ability becuase there weren't any FSCKING chemical weapons in the country when we invaded.

How do you explain this gap in logic?

Empirical evidence and your statements are mutually exclusive, proving your statement fasle.

How does your brain reconcile this information?

Do you just ignore everything that does not fit with what you already believe?

Do you automatically discredit any source that provides information conrtary to what you want to believe.

Explain how ability, intent, and no chemical weapons are not mutually exclusive.

You seem to love to explain things to us. EXPLAIN THIS

--------------------
"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 08:32      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
Danimal wrote:
I am always amazed by how easy it is to trigger an insult from people these days. Imagine the reaction I was actually trying to make an insult.

That wasn't an insult, that was me rudely telling you that you didn't understand that what I had posted was humor and not abuse. A posting which, incidentally, was a question specifically for someone else. Curiosity demands that I inquire just why you felt the need to respond to something which clearly did not involve you. It's almost like the start of an obsession.

Anyway

For future comparison purposes, I can provide you with many fine examples of real insults if you wish. They can involve livestock, your ancestors, your potential for children, your anatomy... you name it. I have quite the vocabulary.

The unfortunate thing about e-communications is that it is so hard to leverage ones extensive vocabulary in such a way as to ensure that their message is taken as humor and not as an insult.

Thanks for clairification that you were "being humorous" and not insulting me. I guess I can see that now. No harm no foul.

Now, let's discourse the extensivenss our our respective vocabularies, shall we? [Smile] Your mention of livestock has my curiosity piqued. I'll admit, in matters of livestock I am probably less knowledgable than you. [Smile] (To be clear, that was humor, pure humor. Funny or not I'm not trying to insult you.)

Best,

Dan

--------------------
"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 11:27      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
April 29, 2006 06:31
Iraq couldn't have had the intent and ability becuase there weren't any FSCKING chemical weapons in the country when we invaded.

How do you explain this gap in logic?

1. Had Ability -- The Duelfer Report was not wrong when it said Saddam had the ability to produce chemical weapons. Reason: The UN didn't destroy or witness the destruction of equipment for producing chemical weapons.

2. Had Intent -- The Duelfer Report wasn't wrong here either. Saddam kept both equipment and key scientists for WMD production, and reports and his behavior indicated that he considered chemical weapons to be very effective.

Note: At this point maybe the observation should have been "Saddam is completely insane for spending millions of dollars on absolutely nothing." (Kind of like buying a million dollars of air from a guy on a street corner, then running around trying to fit the air in a wine glass.)

... However, the problem with crazy people is that you don't know when they're going to do something "crazy," what they're going to do, and how many people are going to die as a result. Using chemical weapons was the kind of "crazy" thing people expected from Saddam.

3. Everyone Knew Saddam Was Hiding Things -- The problem was that no one knows what they were because they were hidden. (Maybe France and Russia knew because "maybe" they were part of the "effective system for the procurement of items banned by sanctions.") We knew (100% positive) that Saddam hid parts of equipment from his nuclear program (because we found them). Hiding a main battle tank from weapons inspectors wouldn't make sense. Hiding jet aircraft wouldn't make sense. Hiding gold toilets wouldn't make sense (ok, maybe that would [Roll Eyes] ).

(1), (2), and (3) are facts. There is no gap in logic. (PM me if you still don't understand.)

However, what was uncertain but most probable was that Saddam had successfully hidden WMD (no one witnessed significant WMD destruction, and the UN had "bungled" quite a few matters relating to Saddam).

Consider this: Someone can easily have the ability and intent to shoplift cheese crackers. The unknown is: Does he decide to do it or not?

The "line" from the UN, France, Russia, and China was: "We did a great job searching Saddam for WMD, even though he got away with violating a lot of the inspection rules. We know he's hiding stuff. We have absolutely no clue what he's hidden. But whatever it is, it's probably not dangerous, and it's probably not WMD." (If you know about UN corruption related to Saddam, it should be very clear why this statement had "no credibility" with the US.)

The Importance of: "... the ability to produce large quantities of Sulfur Mustard in 3-6 months, and large quantities of nerve agent in 2 years."

This statement means that once you stop constant surveillance, Saddam can go from "not a WMD threat" to "a definite chemical weapons threat" within six months. That would be a "complete failure of containment" (not very good for 12 years of "work", and there are other implications).

I am "very concerned" about UN corruption and its "spectacular" failures. Other people "aren't concerned at all." This difference is pretty clear, it's "not" going to change, and I shouldn't have to tell people how to avoid an open conflict. [ohwell]

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 13:02      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ashitaka:
Do you just ignore everything that does not fit with what you already believe?

Bingo !

Now please stop feeding the troll.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 2 posted April 29, 2006 13:59      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Do you just ignore everything that does not fit with what you already believe?
For the sake of argument, let's rephrase the question to what "everything" refers to:

Do you just ignore "the UN claim that no WMD existed" because it "does not fit with what you already believe?"

No. It lacks credibility because: "the UN Oil for food program was plagued by corruption and bungling administration." (In other words: The UN was/is corrupt, and there was a clear conflict of interest in that UN members and officials were getting massive, illicit benefits from the status quo.)

Asking someone to believe a statement from a corrupt organization where the conclusion is "the corrupt organization did a good job" -- that is a "gap in logic."
quote:
April 29, 2006, 11:27
PM me if you still don't understand.

In case "you" haven't noticed, I generally don't trust what anyone says (and I can quote myself to prove it).

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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garlicguy

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 16:25      Profile for garlicguy   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
East of Eden

The place we're to move into next week is out in the country on a little dirt road which runs mostly east and west. There is a mailbox out front, a window on the west side of the house, and a door on the north side of the house. There is a smallish, harmless looking dog in the yard.

>

--------------------
I don't know what I was thinking... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 17:45      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Danimal wrote:
Thanks for clairification that you were "being humorous" and not insulting me.

Erm... no. As I said, I was being rude. The humor was back when I asked ASM if he thought every other poster on the board was one person (how could that not be a joke?)

Now, let's discourse the extensivenss our our respective vocabularies, shall we?

Umm... discourse is a noun, not a verb. If you're going to start a comparison of vocabularies, you -really- need to stick with words that you know how to use properly.

Your mention of livestock has my curiosity piqued.

There are websites that will satisfy that curiosity. I don't have any URLs handy, but try searching for "beastiality" on google.

I'll admit, in matters of livestock I am probably less knowledgable than you.

I grew up around farms. Computers and industrial machines don't bleed, pee, defecate, ooze, kick, bite or attract flies when they die. I'm trying to forget all that I know about livestock.

So, of course, I've gone and made a new friend who has a horse farm. So far she's shown me pictures of a horse with skin problems and offered to use a rectal thermometer meant for livestock on me when I was feeling bad and thought I might have a temperature (I declined).

I do so love my friends.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 20:34      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Discourse is both a noun and a verb.

"to express oneself especially in oral discourse."

I think I'll bow out of engaging further in any insults. Win or lose it amounts to both of us learning to dislike each other and life is too stressful to make enemies in that manner.

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 20:41      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
*shrug*

I'm still waiting on you to explain how you misinterpreted "rude" as "humor"

And if you think I have any emotional investment in this beyond a bit of fun at getting someone else riled up for no reason, you haven't read enough of my posts [Smile]

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Worst. Celibate. Ever.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 20:42      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Steen:
*shrug*

I'm still waiting on you to explain how you misinterpreted "rude" as "humor"

Nothing more than having an inaccurate memory of what was originally said.

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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Too Cool To Quit
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Icon 1 posted April 29, 2006 20:44      Profile for Too Cool To Quit     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Dude, are you 8?

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Alright now, that's the last straw, I'm calling the ass taxidermist to tell him to stop making hats in your size RIGHT NOW.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted April 30, 2006 06:50      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[shake head]

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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