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Author Topic: Socialism Run Amok? Or Something Else?
ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted March 22, 2006 13:58      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
It's About the People
quote:
I would consider Sweden a socialist democracy even though it's technically a constitutional monarchy.
...
I'd add Denmark, Norway, and Belgium to the list. There's probably others as well.

Question: If the government of Sweden had a President, a Congress, and a Supreme Court like the US, would the people have the same benefits that exist now?

If the answer is "yes," then it's not the government that is "socialist," it's the people and their cultural values that result in a country that places a strong emphasis on social welfare.

quote:
Socialist values have something to do with wanting a society with humane values, and is in my opinion one of the marks of advanced, outward looking, and civilised nations.
But the government isn't what makes people "civilized." It's the individuals (and their values) that make the society "civilized." Otherwise, we could put a tiny "Socialist" government in every prison, and suddenly we'd end up with highly civilized citizens (with histories of unacceptable behavior).

Q: What Do You Call a Government that Doesn't Provide Social Benefits?

A: Tyranny.

Essentially every non-totalitarian government provides services which are social benefits to all citizens: roads, law enforcement, sanitation, etc. The question is: what portion of government services are for the people, compared to the portion that serves only the government? When nearly all resources are dedicated to "the state," it's totalitarian. Therefore, most governments practice "socialism" to various degrees, because the government is supposed to serve the people. (Hence the term "public servant.")

--------------------
Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 22, 2006 19:28      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I don't know what most of what you guys are talking about.

I did find it humorous that Cap'n'Vic response to being called gay used the term "broken little boy."

Nothing personal, Cap. Just, perhaps, not the best counter assault in that context. [Smile]

Anyway, here is what Apple has to say on the matter....

quote:
"The French implementation of the EU Copyright Directive will result in state-sponsored piracy," Apple said in a statement. "If this happens, legal music sales will plummet just when legitimate alternatives to piracy are winning over customers. iPod sales will likely increase as users freely load their iPods with 'interoperable' music which cannot be adequately protected. Free movies for iPods should not be far behind in what will rapidly become a state-sponsored culture of piracy."
It looks like Apple wins either way, sort of.

Best,

Dan

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 22, 2006 19:35      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
BTW- According a couple of news sites the bill passed the lower house today.

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ASM65816
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Icon 4 posted March 23, 2006 10:13      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
... Cap'n'Vic response to being called gay ...
I didn't say "he's gay." I said he had a fixation. His use of the term "gay" doesn't show much respect for homosexual males. It's just name-calling.

Consider his thread:
  Your News -- Topic: Broke Mac Mountain

#include sarcasm.h
    Gee, he respects persons of alternative lifestyles sooooo much.

(Of course, he's diversified and has referenced bestiality as well. [Roll Eyes] )

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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drunkennewfiemidget
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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 10:19      Profile for drunkennewfiemidget     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
I don't know what most of what you guys are talking about.

I did find it humorous that Cap'n'Vic response to being called gay used the term "broken little boy."

Nothing personal, Cap. Just, perhaps, not the best counter assault in that context. [Smile]

Nah, you'll quickly learn that ASM is a troll and won't get the hint and leave.
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Cap'n Vic

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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 12:25      Profile for Cap'n Vic     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Of course, he's diversified and has referenced bestiality as well.

Don't bring your mother into this conversation.

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(!) (T) = 8-D

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 12:35      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh ferfscksake, if you keep throwing that mutt food scraps, it'll keep hanging around the dinner table.

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 19:13      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If there is a known troll in our midst why is his presence tolerated?

Don't most sites try to kick trolls?

Sorry, it's a bit off topic but the topic was already off topic so I figure "what the hell?" [Smile]

Best,

Danimal

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 19:14      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Cap'n Vic:
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
Of course, he's diversified and has referenced bestiality as well.

Don't bring your mother into this conversation.
BUAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA

[Smile]

I'll try and stay on your good side, Vic.

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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YaYawoman

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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 19:34      Profile for YaYawoman     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ASM65816:
It's About the People
quote:
I would consider Sweden a socialist democracy even though it's technically a constitutional monarchy.
...
I'd add Denmark, Norway, and Belgium to the list. There's probably others as well.

Question: If the government of Sweden had a President, a Congress, and a Supreme Court like the US, would the people have the same benefits that exist now?

If the answer is "yes," then it's not the government that is "socialist," it's the people and their cultural values that result in a country that places a strong emphasis on social welfare.

quote:
Socialist values have something to do with wanting a society with humane values, and is in my opinion one of the marks of advanced, outward looking, and civilised nations.
But the government isn't what makes people "civilized." It's the individuals (and their values) that make the society "civilized." Otherwise, we could put a tiny "Socialist" government in every prison, and suddenly we'd end up with highly civilized citizens (with histories of unacceptable behavior).

Q: What Do You Call a Government that Doesn't Provide Social Benefits?

A: Tyranny.

Essentially every non-totalitarian government provides services which are social benefits to all citizens: roads, law enforcement, sanitation, etc. The question is: what portion of government services are for the people, compared to the portion that serves only the government? When nearly all resources are dedicated to "the state," it's totalitarian. Therefore, most governments practice "socialism" to various degrees, because the government is supposed to serve the people. (Hence the term "public servant.")

I am sorry, but I just don't see what is so troll-like in this post.

I thought the point he(or she) made about the people creating a civilised society and government and not the other way around was a very good point.

There have been times I have disagreed with his posts, but then again there have been plenty of times I have disagreed with others who post here too. Just because I do not agree with someone personally I do not label them a troll.

I realize I am still very new here, so I am wondering is there any history here that would explain such hostility?

Thank you. [Smile]

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csk

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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 20:07      Profile for csk     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by YaYawoman:
I realize I am still very new here, so I am wondering is there any history here that would explain such hostility?

Thank you. [Smile]

In short, yes. It's getting to the stage where we need to make a FAQ for this...

--------------------
6 weeks to go!

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 20:19      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by csk:
In short, yes. It's getting to the stage where we need to make a FAQ for this...

Except recently his posts, while not always the way I feel, are rather concise. While many members that I have respected act in the manner of trolls themselves.

But what the do I know right?

I mean it is just the internet. Not like it really matters.

/me goes back to lurking.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 23, 2006 20:27      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This story gets more and more interesting.

The news today has the US Commmerce Secretary speaking out against what France is doing.

I wonder... could this cause a negative affect?

Best,

Dan

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 03:52      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
I am sorry, but I just don't see what is so troll-like in this post.
I am a "South Park Republican" (look up Trey Parker and Matt Stone). Some people can't make distinctions, so they use the label "Neo-con(servative)", then say "all Neo-cons are trolls." There's really only two GC members that rant "HE'S A TROLL! HE'S A TROLL!" and begin name-calling (they're obvious). The hostility began when US bombs started falling on Afghanistan. (I didn't have much sympathy for the Taliban.)

For the most part, I'm a lurker. However, I de-lurk for: "Saddam didn't deserve what the US has done to him", and a few other items. No one demands technical references, so I don't use them (makes things shorter).

quote:
Originally posted by Callipygous:
... the people on the right are still confusing Socialism with Marxism.

Callipygous, I respect you as one of the best GC members because you care and want a better world. (I don't think I'm wrong on that.) After your post, I figured I should examine "definitions" more closely.
quote:
Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system in which the means of production are collectively owned and administered democratically by all of society.
Is this your definition, or do you have something better?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Ashitaka

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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 07:17      Profile for Ashitaka     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM65816__________ You seem to be arguing against the possibility that a people could elect a socialst government. Having a socialist society and having a democracy or republic are not mutually exclusive.

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"If they're not gonna make a distinction between Muslims and violent extremists, then why should I take the time to distinguish between decent, fearful white people and racists?"

-Assif Mandvi

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 07:51      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ASM,

Thanks for your post. I had asked for some back story and you gave some.

I like to keep an open mind and don't post here all that much. When something like what is going on in France with Apple comes up this has to be the place for it. I see this sites close ties to Canada and thus France to be where I am likely going to find the most interesting and entertaining points of view. Not all responses are intellectual but hey, I'm not exactly a scholar so I "ain't" complaining. (Just see my typo's).

I try to keep my mind open. To me, anyone calling you a troll because they have ideological differences with you has insufficient reason to make such an accusation.

I'm not saying that you are not a troll. I'm just saying that it does not look like it to me at this time.

Now, what was this thread about?? I forget. [Smile]

Best,

Danimal

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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The Famous Druid

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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 11:30      Profile for The Famous Druid     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
ASM,

Thanks for your post. I had asked for some back story and you gave some.

...

I try to keep my mind open. To me, anyone calling you a troll because they have ideological differences with you has insufficient reason to make such an accusation.

No-one is caling him a troll because he has ideological differences, there are several other regulars on the board who support the wars, and I've got generally good relations with them.

People call ASM a troll because of his long history of trolling, long incoherent postings devoid of anything even remotely resembling logic, full of quotes from diverse sources with no discernable connection to the topic at hand (and refusing to provide any explanation of the relevance beyond "its obvious") never acknowledging anyone elses arguments except to twist their words beyond all recognition and claim they're supporting terrorism/islamic extremism/whatever. Some of the most polite, patient people on this board have been provoked to quite impolite bahaviour by this fsckwit.

But please, don't take my word for it, check the archives for some of his postings and see for yourself.

--------------------
If you watch 'The History Of NASA' backwards, it's about a space agency that has no manned spaceflight capability, then does low-orbit flights, then lands on the Moon.

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ASM65816
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 12:34      Profile for ASM65816   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
"Good" governments may tend to be capitalist, or tend to be socialist.

There is no such thing as a "pure" Capitalist government: Imagine people going to the market and saying "I think I need $5 of mayor today" or "I'm not buying mayor -- I've had enough to last me years." It's kind of an oxymoron.

Government in a "capitalist" society exists for "socialist" reasons: distribution of wealth for the benefit of society. When roads are built, no individual could afford or use a "piece of road," and no business would make something that it could not profit from. However, a (well-planned) road can provide great benefit to everyone upon completion. (A high return on investment -- in accordance with capitalist values.)
quote:
You seem to be arguing against the possibility that a people could elect a socialist government. Having a socialist society and having a democracy or republic are not mutually exclusive.
A democracy (or republic) should reflect the desires of the society. (In theory:) If people want a highly socialist government, then the government will be socialist and the people will be happy.

The technicality of my argument is: A democracy itself (the government, not the people) is neither socialist nor capitalist. A democracy should be able to freely alternate between capitalist and socialist favoritism. Marxism exists because once people favor a more capitalist system, the only way to remain "socialist" is through the use of force (and democracy is eliminated). Argument: Human nature destroys "true" socialism.

TFD, you and one other person were the "only ones" drawn into some very bad behavior by my "trolling." What does that tell you? Think before you post (or don't post)?

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Once a proud programmer of Apple II's, he now spends his days and nights in cheap dives fraternizing with exotic dancers....

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Sxeptomaniac

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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 13:20      Profile for Sxeptomaniac   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I have to agree with Shroom. The current state of this feud doesn't reflect as badly on ASM as it does on others. I know there's a lot of history involved, but I frankly don't care what it was like a year or two ago.

And Cap'n, please don't post NSFW pictures in the middle of a thread. I know I'm not the only one who accesses this site at work.

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Let's pray that the human race never escapes from Earth to spread its iniquity elsewhere. - C. S. Lewis

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Callipygous
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Icon 1 posted March 24, 2006 16:33      Profile for Callipygous     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Well Sxepto that may be true, but ASM has brought it on himself. I can argue with people such as yourself, Erbo, and other poor deluded fools on the Right [Wink] , and get something from it. Nobody is going to change their minds, but we can explore each others positions and have our arguments tested. ASM does not do this. He just lectures you. You answer and ask questions, which he ignores as he gives you another lecture, and so on, and so on. He has no idea of the give and take in conversation or debate. He never answers your questions, or even seems to hear what you are saying. That is what people object to, not the extreme nature of his opinions or the singular nature of his mind. Erbo's opinions on for instance the warlike nature of Islam are in my opinion just as mad, dangerous, and frankly bonkers as anything ASM says, but he will attempt to answer criticisms, and has a rudimentary respect for logic and reason.

I have made too many fruitless and frustrating attempts to talk to ASM in the past, so now I simply do not read any of his posts in any thread, as that removes any temptation to reply to them. Cap'n Vic is a more passionate person than myself and finds this hard to do. For quite a while though, he stopped posting here simply because he found ASM so irritating, and I know whose presence I prefer.

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"Knowledge is Power. France is Bacon" - Milton

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2006 08:40      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Anyway, this thread was started to discuss the bill that France is proposing. Let's please turn this conversation back to the Apple related issue and take it off of the personalities of those discussing it.

Let's discuss what France's overall goals could be in bringing forth this legislation. What are it's motives? Are those motives political, idealistic, wise or foolish?

If the bill paseses, what to we see as the possible after effects? If it's goal is to be for the people will it really achieve that or will it cause France to become a place where only illegally downloaded music will be available?

There is a lot of implications to this. It would be interesting to see what everyone else thinks.

Best,

Danimal

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"Corporate America (or place your country here)" is one of those weird religions that still believes in human sacrifice.

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CommanderShroom
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2006 08:59      Profile for CommanderShroom     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Danimal:
Let's discuss what France's overall goals could be in bringing forth this legislation. What are it's motives? Are those motives political, idealistic, wise or foolish?

I have a feeling it may be along all of those lines. There is definitely some idealism. Of course with France's recent turmoil perhaps there is the undercurrent of thought of opening stuff up for the average person to make the gov't seem more open and forward thinking.

But it does sem rather foolish to me. iTunes has the selection it has because of their DRM. None of the more open sites have near the catalogue of iTunes. I don't use them, nor do I plan on using them. But that is me. If I was into buying music online, they have just about the best selection.

If the bill paseses, what to we see as the possible after effects? If it's goal is to be for the people will it really achieve that or will it cause France to become a place where only illegally downloaded music will be available?

It is very possible the bill will pass through their system. But I believe that the repurcussions will be interesting. I have a feeling that Apple will not bend and take off their DRM. And IIRC there really aren't many companies that sell music online that don't have one form of DRM or another. It may prompt more people to leave the market. Plus depending on how it goes through, it may cause friction with the EU's own policies. Which is a new battle of its own.

Now that said. Let them do what they want. And let them pay in whatever way they have to pay for it. Perhaps it will create a new more accesible version of DRM that will make life nicer for the rest of us. I highly doubt it, but time will only tell. Anyway, to most of the online music resellers, France cannot be a number one concern of theirs. They are a relatively small market.

It will be interesting to watch is all I really know.

--------------------
Does he know our big secret?
Has one of us confessed?
'Bout the wires circuits and motors
Buried in our chest

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 25, 2006 14:48      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thank you for that very intersting response.

Best,

Dan

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Danimal
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Icon 1 posted March 27, 2006 07:33      Profile for Danimal     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
WOW. In the news today it came up that Denmark may be joining France by bringing forward similar legislation.

In other new, this writer has what I consider to be the most scathing rebuke of what France is doing. I am bringing it up here because I expect it to invoke an even greater debate on the matter.

quote:
France Discovers a Way to Fight Apple -- Piracy: Kevin Hassett

March 27 (Bloomberg) -- Last week, the French National Assembly approved a bill that would force online music vendors to make their music compatible with any music player. The law is a clear shot across the bow of Apple Computer Inc., the company whose iTunes software and iPod players have revolutionized the music industry.

The French, apparently unhappy that an innovative American company is so popular in France, have decided to engage in piracy. If real property rather than intellectual property were at stake, the French move would be considered an act of war.

There was a time when computers were the scourge of the music industry. But then Apple figured out a clever solution. It enabled its iPods and iTunes music store with an encryption technology called FairPlay. This makes Apple's ubiquitous iPod incompatible with music downloaded from any site other than iTunes, and songs downloaded from iTunes incompatible with other players.

The result is Apple's whopping 70 percent share of the market for digital music downloads.

Much Better

If you haven't tried iTunes, you should. It is simply a much better way to organize and play music. If you want to hear an old favorite like ``Radar Love,'' you go to the iTunes store and for 99 cents download it to your computer, which sends it to your iPod. And there you are, bopping along, on the move, to that great Golden Earring number.

Innovators make new things because they hope to profit. Apple has profited handsomely from its breakthrough, recently celebrating the sale of its one billionth song. But other music vendors (and device makers) have been jealous of Apple's success.

The recent trouble began in June 2004, when VirginMega, a French online-music store, filed a complaint with the French Competition Council. VirginMega, a joint venture of Richard Branson's Virgin Group Ltd. and French media company Lagardere SCA, alleged Apple was harming competition when it refused to license FairPlay to others. Of course, it might help the competition to share technology, but why should Apple do that? If you build a better mousetrap, you shouldn't have to share the design with everyone else.

Thrown Out

Correctly, the French Competition Council threw out VirginMega's case. Despite -- or because of -- the decision, the surly French politicians decided to pass a law attacking Apple. If the French Senate agrees with the National Assembly, then Apple will probably be forced to pull out of France.

Imagine if someone built a resort so beautiful that vacationers swarmed to it, and the French passed a law requiring the resort owners to let French citizens stay at the resort for free. This ruling is essentially the same thing. The French are trying to rob an American company.

In this new economy, foreign actions to undermine U.S. innovation are increasingly stressing to trade officials. Yet the Washington trade community has proven better at protecting bras than intellectual property. The Apple case may be the outrage that forces American policy makers to fix the system.

If the French can steal Apple's property in this way, it will cost U.S. shareholders and workers billions. The president should instruct trade officials to signal their extreme displeasure, and threaten retaliation if the French continue down this path.

Not About Competition

The French can pretend this is about competition, but it's not. In the U.S., a wide array of cell phone operators are already lining up to use their wireless networks to zap music to devices that combine the functionality of an iPod and a cell phone. You can bet that some clever innovator will find a way to construct a cell-phone interface that attracts millions of customers.

That's how the system is supposed to work. Creative companies like Apple make money, and others are motivated to compete for those new profits. The constant drive for innovation makes everyone better off.

The whole thing comes crashing down if we allow piracy. More and more, foreign governments themselves are the pirates. It's time for the U.S. government to take a stand.

Thoughts, gang?

Best,

Danimal

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GrumpySteen

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Icon 1 posted March 27, 2006 16:47      Profile for GrumpySteen     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The logic behind the Bloomberg article is deeply flawed. Unfortunately, the author probably knows this aready and has intentionally written it that way.

Imagine if someone built a resort so beautiful that vacationers swarmed to it, and the French passed a law requiring the resort owners to let French citizens stay at the resort for free. This ruling is essentially the same thing.

To put it back into musical terms, the author proposes that the French law would require Apple to allow French citizens to download the music for free from iTunes without paying for it. This is not at all the case.

To use the resort analogy, imagine someone builds the resort, then requires that you join a club with a one time membership fee (the purchase of the iPod) before you can even pay the fee to stay (the price of a song) at the resort.

That's far more accurate, but since the music is being paid for, it's clear that the law is not promoting piracy by downloading from iTunes. Furthermore, the reality is that there is -nothing- on iTunes that you can't illegally download in a non-DRM format elsewhere.

The DRM only serves to lock customers who wish to be legal and use iTunes into the use of the iPod. Whether that should or should not be legal is the issue. All the hand-waving about piracy is misinformation designed to promote opposition to the proposed law. If you can equate the proposed law with piracy, you can get people who don't think the topic through to oppose a law that they don't understand because piracy is generally considered a bad thing.

Posts: 6364 | From: Tennessee | Registered: Jan 2000  |  IP: Logged


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